UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum Dagger for discussion

Your thoughts and analysis?

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the look of the blade seems to be off, artificial crossgrain or over polished, i would think scabbard should be anodized hanger leather seems to new
just an an army collector taking a peek on the darkside i could be wrong but i think i would pass

Too shiny and new. Wrong type of the scabbard and fake hanger. Handle looks too new and blade was polished (no wonder if it is post war). This is what I see. With such a dagger if even one thing force to think better pass...

Wants to look minty, but it's not. I'm not Himmler inscription expert, so can't say if the shape of each letter is correct or not, but the blade looks, at least, polished. Other parts sooo clean and shiny, no trace of our beloved patina.
Shape of the handle looks correct for Eickhorn, but again, not a single and slightest sign of age.
Late hanger and factory new (late?)scabbard to the top of it. All of this makes me sceptical, but if, somehow, the dagger is original (I guess you know it, JR ), someone made a big harm with such "conservation".

IMO looks like a over-restored dagger.
Grip may have an issue around the rune-button, or a repair?
As mentioned, scabbard should not be painted on these.
So far I think the blade is an original, but restored.

Best regards,

Offered with these reassuring statements by the seller:

"It anodized with a light crazing showing thru. I doubt if this dagger was worn more that a few times as the only real evidence of wear is typical in/out marks on the blade,a small dent to the scabbard ball and the little dings to the back of the grip."

"The blade has no issues exhibiting 100% crossgraining, no spotting and no pits. There is no blackening to the motto which is the way some of these were made for whatever reason"

quote:

"The blade has no issues exhibiting 100% crossgraining, no spotting and no pits. There is no blackening to the motto which is the way some of these were made for whatever reason"

And for whatever reason these were heavy polished at the end

The seller wanted $15,000.00 for this Himmler, but didn't want the photos of it to be posted GDC for discussion......................

Perhaps the seller, who is a very well known name on this site, will chime in and clear it all up for us.................

that blade has DEFINATELY been buffed or polished..achieve the identical effect with a buffer's wheel or dremel tool...even a novice would be able to tell from the pics provided..the statement that the "blade has no issues" is totally incorrect in this instance...cheers

JR: Scabbard appears to be reanodized and lacqueured. While some blade photos look okay, others reveal a definite buffing to the blade. While value is subjective, I would sell it for $8000 to $10,000 if I had it. It looks like the work of Manfred Vogel, a very nice man who restores "shot" daggers as a hobby. You can spot his work, but I'm sure the dagger in question looked a LOT worse before the restoration.

The runner marks on the blade look as if it's been in and out of the scabbard at LEAST ten times in it's existance!

Yes, I think it's an overly restored original. Blade buffed, scabbard finish redone. Perhaps a restored grip, too. Wrong hanger, even if real (no big deal, if real). Way overpriced. Striving for a "minty" look, but fell short. I think Craig's price range is more realistic, but I doubt I'd buy it in that range.

pass on it for any amount of unreasonable money,,,

Scabbard looks to be painted to me?

You guys nailed everything in evlauation of the dagger in every respect, right down to the hanger.

I'd rather this one. And I suppose the one worn by Hans Baur is the dagger that Tom Wittmann sold recently. See ya at the Max.

Enjoy!

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com

I agree with the above comments.

The photos seem to show the blade has an unusually bright finish and slightly blurred edges to the detail that I have observed on blades cleaned the Simi Chrome or similar products. There appears to be edge damage or sharpening marks but that may be the pics. I will also dispute the seller's comments on motto blackening. The top conditioned ones I have seen all have it. The blackening is not as pronounced as on some makers such as Boker, but is there.

The finish on the scabbard is not what I expect to see on a top conditioned Himmler dagger. See below for what mine looks like. The hanger is of a later period and perhaps a reproduction.

I agree with Craig about Manfred's work. He manufactured a grip for me which looks great from 10 feet away but close up looks painted, which I think mine is.

Value ? From what I have seen, collectors are willing to pay less for daggers in lesser, but honest, condition. But they shy away from daggers that have been visibly worked upon. With rarer or higher priced daggers, it is even more true.

Dave

I have been informed that the person who is selling this dagger is Jim Modena.

Jim, can you please comment ?

If you would send that dagger to me, I would be glad to compare it to my own which is an impeccable example from Gailen David and do a photographic report on the Forum. I think I can persuade a local bud to get his out of the bank and his is as good as mine.

What do you say, Jim ?. The photos were probably taken in a bad light and it would be great to see this dagger and tell everyone about your great find.

Dave

May I ask what is the relevance of all this Dave ?
Have you got a hidden agenda or just a bad sense of humor.
The whole thing sounds extremelly sacarstic and it seems like some kind of personal vendetta.

It would be nice Dave if you could stay neutral for once, you're supposed to be the chief moderator and as such, be a bit more diplomatic.

Just my opinion.

This dagger was NOT for sale on this forum.
Jim never said publicly that this daqgger was a textbook original either, so what's the grief I ask ?
Was this dagger "touched up", sure it was and so what if it sold as such ?
Would I pay retail for this one, of course not but if I could get it at the discount, why not.
I've seen nice daggers with repainted and releathered scabbard being sold and so what ?
If everything is mentioned as such there is no harm.

Thanks for your support here Pat. I know when I'm being set up and I will respond on this issue if and when I decide to do so. The pictures of this dagger were sent privatly to one individual with the express prohibition NOT to send them to the originator of this thread. I explained to the individual these pictures were sent to WHY I had that stipulation and I won't go into this now. As a matter of fact; the individual who started this thread has done an in hand examination of this dagger at my home and knows damn good and well it's original.
Jim

Jim, makes ya wonder about the photo copyright thing does it not!!!
Bret Van Sant

Ya can see, looking at the photos, just exactly why Jim did not want any pictures posted anywhere at all. If I was selling this for $15K I wouldunt want light shines on it either.

Joe

I am consolidating all the comments about Patrice Vialle from the Forum into a separate topic so no one misses anything and everyone can be in tune with one another. It will be in the Community Center in a few minutes. See my comments at the end of that

I'll post 4 more pictures of my Himmler. Like then one on the last page, these were taken about 10 years ago with a camera borrowed from the office. Certainly not up to today's or JR standards

First the scabbard end. Not that dark gray anodizing and heavy lacquer finish seen on Himmlers

Other end. Note the slight crazing under the lacquer

Eagle:

Himmler inscription. Bad angle to the photo. Apologies for that

There's already plenty of opinions on this dagger but I'd still like to venture that the blade has the very distinctive appearance of having been cleaned with a high speed wire brush, rather than just a buffer; as evidenced by the galling on the surface of the blade.

Perhaps Jim can take more photos on a cloudy day if there ever is one in Phoenix. I can mine out of the bank and shoot the same angles.

Dave

I will probably just bring the dagger to the SOS next year so anyone that want's to can look at it. Although several senior collectors and dealers, who would know if there was really anything wrong with this dagger, have already done a hands on examination at my home. Notice the apparent lack of crossgraining on the example above as was pointed out on mine. I have noted this on other Himmlers and still think these were give an extra bit of polishing by Eickhorn before the etches were put on.
Jim

I was going to post this earlier and forgot. Here is a Himmler for sale on Bill Sheas site with characteristics similiar to mine. Note the "shineyness" to the blade,the lack of blackening to the motto no apparent crossgraining even when you look at his closeups and the fact that his example still has about 100% of the scabbard anodozing.
Jim

Jim,

Can you send it to me ? I have one I got from Gailen David and I know of another collector with one that I can borrow. I'll shoot comparative pictures and post them without any commentary.