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Enough of the easy questions this weekend. Lets get to the harder stuff (at least for me). This sword (sabre) with its curve makes me think mounted useage but I could believe hunting too due to its ornate fittings, etched and damascus blade. Any info and/or guesses would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Photo 2.

Last photo and of the cute little lion snouts.

Looks mid-eastern.

Is that the Medusa on the langet? What are the designs on the blade?

Definitely has a scimitar type look to it, maybe Turkish or Iranian if the langet head is a Medusa.

Here is the etch. It looks similiar to one I have had on early 1800 German swords. Although I suppose this could have been made in Germany for export?

The damascus is a random pattern. I am not sure who this Medusa is. Was that someone Houston went out with in high school? Maybe she was from a Greek story and I got mixed up about that. Anyway here is a photo of the langet by the ivory grip plates.

quote:

Originally posted by RHanson:
Enough of the easy questions this weekend. Lets get to the harder stuff (at least for me). This sword (sabre) with its curve makes me think mounted useage but I could believe hunting too due to its ornate fittings, etched and damascus blade. Any info and/or guesses would be appreciated.

Thanks.

I believe this piece is a Persian (Iranian) scimitar, originally, "shamshir". I have seen this item, rather one like it in an old catalog from "The Museum of Historical Arms".

BTW, the head shown is not that of "Medusa" which has hair of snakes which this is not. Above the head are unknown symbols.

I think that for a time at least the Germany navy and Royal Navy used these scimitar -like edged weapons.

Dave

Thanks for the info Dave.

I had thought German navy at first too, but after going through T. Wittmann's German navy edged weapons book I could not find a reference to anything like it. Maybe I should contact the author of that for his ideas.

I asked about the Medusa because she was used as a symbol by one of the Imperial German States and I have seen her image on the langets of a few swords.
Also, if you ever catch a reflection of Robin ( The King of the province of banter and downdraft price negotiation )in your rear view mirror--slithering up behind you at a show-you will be startled to note the resemblance to the Medusa. I think this is the real reason he bought this sword.

I would like to set the record straight that the real reason I bought this sword was as a favor to an 89 year old vet of Utah beach. Plus he was feeling that I was cherry picking his collections and he made me buy a whole pile of stuff and not just selected items. I am not vain enough to claim a resemblence between the classic styling of this head image to my shake it into place in the morning hair placement. And I want to point out that I always find the blind spots in the rear view mirrors when in slither mode. Another reason for purchase was my heart felt conviction that any real damascus is a good thing.

Now back to this sword thing.

- The whole pile of stuff was Imperial (or older) German stuff.
- The hangers and scabbard lions seem very similiar to German style hanger lion figures (see attached photo).
- The British navy used a very curved sword early on of a somewhat different type and the Germans copied much British naval stuff.
- The Wittmann naval book goes into swords from 1848 German Reichsmarine and newer. Could this be from before that?

IMHO I would say that is possible. I would also guess that the piece was made in the West-possibly for the East-but maybe not. A great piece in any case.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Hohaus:
I think that for a time at least the Germany navy and Royal Navy used these scimitar -like edged weapons.

Dave

Yes indeed Britain did! Here is a link: http://www.oakeshott.org/1831art.html

I have personally seen an engraved, presentation British scimitar which was absolutely 100% magnificent! A guy back in NJ had it, that was maybe 40 years ago now.

I believe a few nations used shamshir style blades. The type of damascus would tell us more. My asumption is this, we don't see any Persian writting/symbols or persian mythological symbols on this sword. Well, except for the lions which are used by many. I think we agree that this "head feature" looks Greek mythology and not Persian mythology.
IMO the symbolic head feature we see represents the Greek myth of Damocles, or commonly known as "The Sword of Damocles". The symbols above the head, I believe represent the point and direction of Dionysius sword. If you are familiar with this Greek myth and it's meaning, I just might be onto something... I'm sure I've seen a sword like this one that was very similar w/same grip and blade shape. If I remember correctly it was made in Solingen for a Russian hot shot in the early 1800's. The only exception being the one I saw had a guard. I will look through my files, I might have a picture of it. A very nice sword you have found and I hope this helps a little.

In spite of its looks it�s not middle eastern. Hard to say for sure because the Germans made a lot of blades for the French. But the style of etch (from what I can see) is early 19th century and it has all the hallmarks of a period French scimitar, although others used that style blade as well. (Notably a British made early period East India Company Infantry Officers short sword (saber) with as much or more curve. As do some period cavalry sabers which are larger).

Anything �Eastern� was �all the rage� in Europe after Napoleon's expedition to Egypt. And the craze lasted for quite a while afterwards, and extended beyond France. I may even have some specific documentation as to who or what the scimitar was created for. But will have to think about where. And my recollection is more than one source, and some are in French and/or German and not particularly easy to use. FP

I received an e-mail from an antique sword person that stated that the sword was of French origin. I would not have guessed that since there is no single dent from when it was dropped during a surrender (just kidding)!

I guess I have seen similiar stylized face images on Napoleonic items. It still seems of German manufacture to me due to the damacus pattern and etch style. It must have been a very expensive to buy piece in the early 1800's and France was where the plundered money was, so maybe that makes sense.

My thanks to everyone for their efforts so far.

I came close to buying a sword very similiar to this one. At the Pomona military show last month. And it was British. What ever it is. It is a very nice sword.

I think that the chances are reasonably good that the blade is German in origin. With that style of etch not normally seen with First Empire blades, but fairly common shortly thereafter. I have multiple examples of German made swords for their English cousins before Napoleon impacted German sword makers. And officers and enlisted men�s swords made in Germany for the French while under French domination. While still later swords exhibit German manufacture after the French no longer controlled German manufacturers.

Something that should resonate with dagger collectors (subcontracting) is the fact that while an item might have a blade from one source does not mean that the complete item was made by the blade manufacturer. My sense of the sword presented is that the mounts are French with the French being quite adept at high quality detail work especially using brass. FP

French quite possible. I have a WWI trench art lighter in the shape of a lg caliber projectile with a metal embossed, from what I have been told is a French Tax Stamp, with about that same woman's face on it.

Sorry, the only picture I could find. Made in Solingen and similar except for the guard.
I'm leaning towards German made, but for whom.

From a German source there are multiple examples of somewhat similar post Napoleonic French �Drum Major�s� sabers that are highly embellished with vaguely similar motif�s. Comment: Some Third Reich military bands had fancy uniforms and trappings. But (in my humble opinion) later era military bands were pale imitations of early period military bands. Which were intended to be visible projections of a nation�s power and wealth. And the French were not amateurs in this arena.

HOWEVER, I have to emphasize that this does not mean that the sword is in fact a Drum Major�s sword. I haven�t looked yet at French sources. And the French had a bewildering array of swords with regimental and other distinctions. What might be helpful at this point is some idea as to the size/dimensions which can have a bearing.

PS for Mikee: Besides any possible export models, the Germans did a considerable amount of copying of French swords for local consumption (especially the Bavarians). And in addition to earlier captured French swords. In the mid 19th century even the Prussians experimented with new (German manufacture) copies of French cavalry and artillery sabers. My point being that you have to look at the end user irrespective of what something might look like at first glance.

Regards to All, FP

Besides swords look at the fact that Germany's highest award for valor was named, in French, "Pour le Merit"!

The sword is 30 inches from top of pommel to end point of blade. This measurement is straight across and does not take into account the extreme curvature of the blade.

I received some info from an antique sword source that suggested that there are small quillions missing from the sides of the sword close to where the hilt meets the blade. He also stated that many makers were in on the fad of shamshir (extreme curved) style blades after Napoleon went throught his Egyptian campaign.

This kind of research stuff is really fun when things are somewhat unknown.

Thanks for the information. It does help although I�ll have to get a big piece of paper and make some calculations. What is the blade width close to the hilt?

It looks like it could be missing quillions. But without actually looking at the sword itself, or finding a reference I�m just guessing. As I think I mentioned earlier anything �Oriental� was very popular especially in France after the expedition, and the craze spread into a lot of other countries as well. The East India Company officer�s saber I mentioned has as much or more curve with a British style hilt. FP

FP,
Thank you for that information and I agree with everything you mentioned. You always present the most logical facts. The French certainly had the means and talent to make these beautiful fittings and more. Whom ever made this sword, I'm of the idea it was made for someone of French prestige. The only evidence I can present at this time is the head feature. Like I stated above, I believe it to be of Greek mythology. The French were very well influenced by Greek mythology, especially during the Consulate period.

Another picture to drool over. No closeups sorry to say.

Thank You Mikee,

I think that you are on to something. Something in the back of my head says that the figure might represent �Athena�. Who in addition to her other attributes was a Greek goddess of war.

Nice picture!!

FP

The sword blade width up close to the hilt is 1.245 inches. The blade thickness at the spline is .205 inches at that point but the thickness becomes quickly less as you go further down the blade.

The great photo Mikee posts appears to have 2 swords very similiar in curvature and scabbard style. Where is that photo taken? At a museum or Mikee's basement? Is it a French grouping?

Beautiful sword.

My vote is for made in Germany for French, First Empire.

The woman's head may represent Hera, queen of the gods, who was noted for unsurpassed beauty and unparalleled jealousy (ergo, protection, revenge and retribution)...the same somewhat contradictory qualities inherent in a beautiful weapon.

And, regardless of her acts, she also had the ability to maintain perpetual "virginity"(purity and virtue) via bathing in springs of Argos. The sprays over the head may symbolize those purifying waters.

Just a thought.

First Empire, or a later example? Speaking generally, the engraved and then fire blued and gilt blade decorations typical of First Empire swords gave way to acid etching circa 1830. (The reason being that the fire bluing and gilt process had proved fatal to workers poisoned by mercury fumes.) And The First Empire period is generally considered to be the era of Napoleon Bonaparte which lasted not later than 1815.

Like the first engraved blades which tended to be on the crude side. The first etchings also tended to be a little on the crude side, but as expertise developed etching quickly became much better. My point being that some later French swords (even as late as the Second Empire) were fairly close copies of First Empire swords except for the acid etched blades.

Like just about everything else in collecting first hand examinations are best. But from what I think that I am seeing the blade decoration here seems to be post First Empire.

PS: Thanks for the additional dimensions. I still have to lay them out on paper, and will incorporate the width into the projection when I do so. FP

transferring to the sword forum for further comments.

I just wanted tp post some follow up info that might finish up the identification process for this sword:

I received some information and photos from a French gentleman that included a photo of a similiar sword in a collection (and the above photo of similiar shape swords in French museums). The photo clearing showed the same head shape on the grip side plates. It seems this is a Napoleonic era French light cavalry, Mameluk style, scimitar shaped dress sabre that would have been worn by French general officers (perhaps lower ranking also if they were rich enough to order one). Probably German made for the French.

Anyway a very good discussion and research history lesson for me. Thanks to all for the help.

The French were some of the first who created fixed issue patterns for enlisted men's swords. They did not do the same for officers or special purpose swords. I can think of an attributed First Empire general officer�s mameluke with the same kind of scabbard, except the mounts and hilt are different. Some light cavalry officer�s carried mamelukes. But many more carried other types of swords and mamelukes were also carried by naval officers and others. High grade swords were usually carried by higher ranking officers, but as mentioned it could include those below the rank of general. And as mentioned earlier, some very ornate swords were carried ceremonially by lower ranks.

The French gentlemen could be correct. But I don�t know if he saw the blade�s decoration or what additional information was available. What is on the blade is important because that style etching was not typically something that was done during the First Empire when Napoleon was emperor.

I�m engaged in a remodeling project and still haven�t pulled the information out of storage. One of the sources is the 25 (?) volume set of �Armes Blanches�. That would be my first choice and anybody who has the set is invited to step in do some research. Regards, FP