UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum help on this officers hat

hi all....i would like opinions on this hat,,,,these are all the pics have of it,,,the insignias are marked "800"...thanks to all who comment,,,,

2nd of 4 photos,,,

#3...

#3....

sorry about the two #3's...tried to delete one of them & i dont have permission to,,,????....heres #4....

The images of the piece above here are in-conclusive. I enclose an image from my Schreckenskabinett as contrast of a cap sold by the great Shea in 2003 and which I managed to save. (i.e. the image...) This cap dates from the period 1935/6 or so....of the firm Isken/Koeln. It was once the property of a former naval officer, a scion of a very leading Kaiserliche Familie, whose father was an admiral in the imperial period and even authored a war plan against the US as a young officer. No longer in the Reichsmarine, this man's son was on the staff of the Rasse- und Siedlungshauptamt as a racial imperialist.

Another image of some relevance from my Schreckenskabinett and archives of the unaffordable. This is the later variety with the black lining, as seen in various reference works. This cap dates from about 1939 or so. It is from the famous Munich firm of Mueller. Its original owner?: no man can say, other than he had a 59 cm. aryan Kopf. And he likley paid about RM 5.70 for it when new.

siehe da!

Siehe da mal zwei! A cousin of the cap posted above, also ca. 1938 from the same Munich firm. Authentic black officer caps are very rare and seldom found. The collector cosmos favors examples that accord to the two dominant types, pictured here above. Finally, the public also seems to become rabid on the subject of echtsilber badges, a subject I shall leave to others. Viel Sammerlglueck. Sorry if in caging these images I have infringed on any rights. sapere aude.

As my last Schreckenstueck from my secret archives, another piece handled by the great Shea. This very piece is in the Wilkins book, in fact. It is an early Mueller, also ca. 1935 or so rendered in the fabric employed in the Gesellschaftsanzug versus the standard material in the two later caps above. What joy these fetid woolens must bring to their various owners in the here and now.

great caps guys,,,thanks for the postings,,,not readily apparent in the pic of the one i posted,the SS RZM stamping in on the right underside of the visor,viewer's left that is,,,could this have been a part's cap,madeup or is the possibilty of the custom purchase type,,thanks & looking forward to more replies,,,,robert

The RZM stamp is faked, of course. The fake stamps are always very flawed. Please post an image of same for analysis. With these things, anything is possible, and you really have to examine the thing in hand.

That 800 marked insignia is going to be bad.
The images posted by Donald Abenheim show some prime examples.
The pics of the cap you posted are not very good but I would not have high hopes from what i see.

noch ein Exemplar aus meinem Geheimarchiv! This cap, too, is in the Wilkins book. It is a modified enlisted cap worn by an officer in the Standarte in Karlsbad/Saaz, Sudetenland, i.e. the Hops producing region in the west of present day Czechia.

The first cap posted looks from the images to be original.Like my fellow colleage says the insignia will have been replaced no doubt because of greed etc somewhere down the line!
The marvellous images of past leaders caps from Donald Abenhiem are worthy of retaining on ones memory,,,,,, here are a few more for your delectation,,,,,,Stephen

2

3

4,,,,Oh dear posted the wrong image and cant delete it,,,,this image is NOT one of my caps,,,,Stephen

Dear Steven, thanks for yours. These images of mine reflect things I have been able to examine in the recent past and these Exemplare only live with me in their digital form. How can mere mortals afford such things? Viel Sammlerglueck. sapare aude.

More images of note. This is the Karlsbad/Saaz cap, once more, an enlisted cap that was promoted. Inside the initials: "E.W." The uniform that came with the cap was likewise upgraded. This cap is in the Wilkins and Johnson books, in fact. Wer war "EW" ?

more still.. the Kragenspiegel that goes with the above cap... a unit raised in the wake of the accession of the western Sudeten area to the Reich, the so-called Egerland...or, as it is called today, western Bohemia. The Eger is a river in this area. The tunic in question is a normal issue piece with the "VA" stamp that was embellished with the officer's Kragenschnur pp. This textile is pictured in the Johnson Schiffer book on war swag.

a final macabre image on this subject: one of the cap badges from the Mueller caps above, itself also from Munich and Deschler & Soehne. This image is dedicated to Kevin Finley, from whom I have learned so much about these little pieces of metal.

Gentlemen, I don't think that the cap in the first post is the same one that's in the 4 photos that follow. The skull is a Deschler (or copy of) in the first photo and an Assmann (or copy of) in the others. The peaks look different as well, the first one has a more rounded lip.

Who knows? The chap who posted the black cap that gave rise to all of this has vanished---so typical. I enclose another image as pure distraction. These are the cap badges of the Mantey cap, the first I posted here. One can hardly suffer from the sight of somewhat more authentic material than the avalanche of fakes and frauds. Viel Sammlerglueck. Let us be frank. The chances of finding a real black SS officer's cap in some magic cave are pretty slim. More likely than not, such items are had from the high end dealers at insane prices. A black officer's cap is more rare than the grey variety, which, in turn, is more rare than the black enlisted cap. sapere aude.

Hello Donald, what do you think of this one. The photos are poor I know and the eagle is the pigeon headed fake but I think the cap may have a chance. It's coming up at an auction about 2 hours drive from where I live. Worth a visit?

The interior looks correct...

Ware?
Second time around.Fake insignia.The label is just tucked in the
lining,loosely.Not worth the trip.
Seiler(Yank in UK)

Where? Ware! that's right Seiler.
Thanks for the tip, saved me �20 in petrol, much obliged.

I do think that the UK is a source for above average fake officer caps with the black lining, and black tag. The saddle shape of the cap pictured in the UK is too severe, too comic-book-like versus the originals. The latter run from a Tellermuetze to the saddle shape (surely), but not as pronounced as the later war varieties. These images above of this cap in the UK are not very clear. However, the rhombus looks off, as does the lining. Can someone get a clearer image of the tag, in fact. Here, from my Schreckenskammer, I attach an image of a Mueller cap, with red rot to the sweat band--there is always a flaw somehow when something is 70 years old. However, this is an authentic cap...it is a cousin of the cap posted by Steve Lee and also similar in time to the cap I posted above with the red background. In the main, the black officer caps are made from a fabric which is cross between doe skin and the Blusen- or Einheitstuch. (see the SS Kleiderkasse catalog for a description of the fabrics on offer in 1940...)In infrequent cases does one find a Trikot variety of cap cover, as in the instance of the OR caps and the OR cap above made into an officer's cap. The later officer caps are made of an inferior grade of wool than found even in early officer or OR caps. The SS was under financial constraints in the 2d half of the 1930s, and as it grew, its regalia declined in quality, in fact. The Isken/Mantey cap is exceptionally fine trikot; the Mueller cap with the very pronounced saddle shape is made from the extra fabric used in the Gesellschaftsanzug, and much better in quality than the other two caps illustrated here from Mueller. I looked at all these pieces closely before they went to their rightful owners...

BenVK
Saw the "Ware" cap again.Bent as a $3 bill!!
Reduced to �450 "To sell"
Seiler (Yank in UK)