UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons HJ Edged Weapons Forum Prototypes with wooden blade?!?!

There is a guy on a swedish auction site, trying to sell a HJ knife with a WOODEN blade(!), stating it is a prototype that the maker was going to send to the RZM for approval. So that would mean there are only one knife like this for every different maker. Tops.
To me, the whole knife looks like pure ....

What makes me wonder is that this guy has had some good items before, and that he claims to be absolutely convinced that this is a period piece, because "it comes from a family with close connections to the EVS factory". And he is giving an unlimited money back guarantee concerning authencity.

Any thoughts about this? I definitely have serious doubts... As I said, in my opinion, it could be a joke.

Thoughts and opions are appriciated.

Here´s a pic on the HJ knife up for sale on www.tradera.se
Best, Hakan

Thanks.

The picture of the blade keeps reminding me of those old wooden rulers that I couldnt resist cutting to pieces...

the whole thing looks to me like it`s made from wood. look at the cross-checking on the grip,and the crossguard looks `carved`. can`t say whether or not it`s original or just someone`s whittling, but it`s certainly unusual!.

I have seen three wooden RAD Leader daggers but this is the first time for an HJ. Looks to me like a wood shop or crafts project.

blueboyukb:
You are right. Its probably wood, the whole knife. At first, I thought the crossguard looked like some cheap, soft metal, but now I see...

I think Gator has a reasonable theory.

Gator:
Have you heard any story about what the wooden RAD leaders was for?

Hello,
I have pics of a wooden RAD EM hauer, it was for sale on a German auction site.
Janos

Pic2

pic3

pic4

I am not sure about wooden prototypes.

The general design of the HJ knife was established long before the RZM and well before the Nazis. By the time the RZM got going, there was no variation in this knife at all except for trademarks and minor supplier detail. Sending a wooden carving to the RZM could serve no purpose that I can see.

I can see little practical industrial purpose to a rather crude one piece wooden RAD hewer either. Drawings would better convey the concept and a fabricated metal prototype would allow the decision makers to see almost the real thing.

My guess would be wood carvers doing these for a hobby.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Janos:
pic3

Well, being a "trenchart" collector as well as daggers, etc, I think this wooden RAD just could have been made by an RAD troop who had some time to kill. His initials were "HD", his RAD unit is scratched under the crossguard.

I am sure you all know what "trenchart" is so no need to epand on that. I made, in the US Army at Ft Riley, KS, several "trenchart" ashtrays over one Christmas/New Years Holiday. They are hand made of 90mm blank rounds with linked .30cal and/or 7.62 Nato rounds on the outside and a worked over .50cal case and projectile in the center over the primer tube.
Soldiers with free time tend to "make stuff".

It would appear that since some of these are quite well made and also nicely painted, that they would have had to have been made where some hand tools, wood and different colors of paint were avalable. Although they could be generally classified as a type of "Trench Art" I don't believe they were made "in the field" so to speak.

Total agreement gator, NOT the field per se. Trenchart was more often done well behind the lines. Nicholas J. Saunders book, "Trench Art Materialities and Memories of war" shows pics of WWI & II soldiers making various items.

When I worked on my 90mm ashtrays at Ft Riley, I had only 1/2 a hacksaw blade, crocus cloth and steel wool to cut, clean and polish my items. It's really amazing what one can do with few tools but lots and lots of time. Polishing boots and brass on a snowy Winter's day gets old as heck after a few hours. The ashtrays were "therapy" and my Scout Platoon made lots of ashtrays that Winter!

lloyd

Daves thoughts are identical to mine in this matter...

The HJ design is old; Why show that to the RZM?
And why spend hours making a wooden example instead of showing more "professional" drawings, and maybe even a "real" example?

But I still think Gators theory was interesting... Maybe a carpenter could have a wooden knife/dagger in his display window, for example?

“Trench art” or a “prop” made by or for those who could not afford a real one?

The HJ knife looks to me like a craft project from somebody with too much time on his hands and nothing else to do. I have seen other comparable creations where the individuals making them took great delight in “putting one over” just for the fun of it. Zero credibility.

The ‘RAD Hewer” (especially multiple RAD Hewers), I think could be an entirely different proposition. Looking at the seeming age/workmanship I have seen a number of similar items myself, and a friend of actually collects them: movie props. Swords, bayonets, daggers - whatever was needed. Some were good enough that at 10 feet or less you could not tell the difference. (I’m not saying that the Hewers were movie props only making an analogy)

My thinking being that not everyone could afford one, and they were not designed to be actually used, but were ceremonial. And if some evidence came to light that nonfunctional period replicas were made for ceremonial purposes I would not be at all surprised. FP

Would that have been allowed? To have a replica instead of a real dagger, I mean? When there were so many rules and regulations regarding the making of daggers and their apperance?

Im not saying you are wrong, I just ask...

"Wolfgang, Why the hell do you run around with a bakelite dagger when everyone else takes such pride in their real ones, and we have regulations?! This is a parade!"
"Well, mein Fuhrer, my daughter bought this new dress and..."

No offense taken, and I will try and amplify my thoughts. I think that the “rules” were a sometimes thing. And depended on what propaganda or other advantage was to be gained, and those in charge sometimes looked the other way.

I have an excellent photograph of an HJ member in uniform with other HJ members. He does not have a HJ knife on his belt, but a generic type hunting knife. No one was paying attention to his non regulation knife. My point being that sometimes rules were bent or not enforced. If my memory serves me correctly only a fraction of HJ members actually had the "official" HJ knives - with cost being a determining factor why so many did not own one.

I also remember parades or fly overs (pick a military) where the same vehicles or aircraft circled round to be seen yet again. My point here being that “appearance” was everything. After the reality of war set in, the manufacture of dress weapons was terminated as nonessential to the war effort. But that did not stop the propaganda machine from trying to project a sense that all was going well which included a number of deceptions in multiple areas. FP

“Wolfgang!!! I don’t care if you are almost out of gas. You will keep circling to fly over the airfield until I tell you to stop! How else can we convince them that we have a large air armada!!"

I see your point, and I agree to some extent.

I have seen several pictures of members of the HJ or other military/paramilitary units wearing private purchase edged weapons, too. Thats "normal", I believe (the swedish unofficial dress bayo must be a great example of that). But I have never seen a picture showing a private puchase item in a parade or an official meeting. The pics I have seen, is pics of military trainings or "everyday life" without crowd or bystanders.

I totally agree about the propaganda point of view. There are countless examples of fake military vehicles, planes, rockets, you name it. That and information/terror propaganda is an important component in war.

But, when the manufacturing of dress daggers stopped because the material could be used for "real" warfare (I agree about that to), the use of dress daggers stopped too, didnt it? In some branches, it was replaced with a pistol if Im not mistaking. Im not sure about other branches, but I always took for granted that they just didnt have to buy daggers anymore.

I thought that on official parades/meetings, it was the RZM dagger or no dagger. On an "ordinary" HJ meeting, fine bring your dads hunting knife, but definitely not when people can see it. On a parade, you bring your RZM dagger and wear it correctly, or you dont bring a dagger. If the production is stopped, you bring your old dagger or none at all. What if someone sees that you are using a fake dagger?

Then maybe replicas were made as toys or display items for civilians, I dont know... And definitely as display items for shops and stores. But I always thougth that with the restrictive regulations, you could not manufacture a fake dagger for military use.

But as I said, I see you point. Its interesting. You might very well be right, actually. A new way of thinking for me. Thanks for opening my mind. I will definitely try to look it up, and have it in mind. Its an exicting thought; maybe there are tons of "real replicas" out there...

"We americans have a serious material shortage... How about you, Wolfgang?"
"Oh, were fine... We even manufacture dress daggers, and we still have enough material to make more bomb planes than you" (Wolfgang crossing his fingers behind his back)

The HJ was for all intents and purposes, the equivilent of our Boy Scouts of course with some heavy weight stuff thrown in as well. I was on a Police Dept in NJ back in the mid '60's with a guy from Germany. He had been a "Flak Helper" during the war.

Lots of HJ knives were used to whittle, etc so are often used when we get them.

Of course there is a big difference between HJ knifes and dress daggers because of the use of HJs, but I was talking about daggers when I wrote about the possible "parade fakes".

Right, right. Gottcha! I cannot even imagine a dress dagger being made of wood, plastic, etc and I am damn near 100% sure that NO German soldier, sailor or airman would disgrace his uniform with such an item!

I still think that the wood RAD is a piece of "trenchart". IMHO only of course. It sure isn't any prototype.

For myself I think I understand your point of view and can see some common areas where we are in agreement. At some point dress weapons were out completely (except for some special occasions) and pistols were in. Even the SS, which was not without influence, ended up having Himmler issue a a decree discontinuing the swords he used to give SS officer school graduates. The war effort came first. And they could no longer continue to follow peacetime practices.

I think that “up close and personal” substitutes for “official” dress side arms would not have been tolerated. However, even well before the actual fighting started, dress side arms were not always available to military officers and enlisted men. And cost was a factor that prohibited or hindered some from purchasing their own. As a result many types of official dress weapons were available as “loaners” from arms rooms/armories. For many of the members of civilian or paramilitary organizations in most cases they probably were no better off financially than the military. And many were probably noticeably worse off.

I also really don’t think that were was a large scale effort to manufacture replica side arms. I do think that it’s possible that for perhaps some less financially well endowed RAD members that some replicas could have been made. Which in a parade/formation would have been visually lost to some extent in the interior of the formation. I am reminded of a wartime photograph where the guys marching in front had machine guns and rocket launchers. And the guys in back had pitchforks and shovels (I’m exaggerating a little but not much).

I hate to add to an interesting discussion this negative observation. But if period replicas were to be proven legitimate. I’m afraid that numbers of fakes would soon emerge to join other present day fakes. Regrettably not a happy thought. Regards, FP

Thats possible, Im afraid... "Sure, Im selling a replica, but its a period one". So, lets just conclude that there was never a great amount of them.

But your thought are well worth considering, even if I still have doubts. Im more on lloyds track; its seems hard to believe that an item that so many put so much pride in, was copied and worn. However, you do have a good point about the RAD and the RAD picture. I think you might be right, as I said. Period evidence would be needed.

But, do we all agree about the wooden HJ? Its not an RZM sample, and its not official in any way?

My vote, Not official and in no way RZM. IMHO only of course but that's my feeling.

lloyd

My specialization is really more with military formations. But I don’t think (and hope) that I conveyed the idea that substitutes were approved by RAD “management”, the RZM, etc. etc. My thoughts were more along the line of a “grass roots” local effort.

I also don’t think “pride” was especially a motivating factor. The RAD was conceived to fight large scale unemployment and give German youth something to do. Being young, with no job, and no money, is NOT a recipe for having money to buy what is essentially a dress weapon really only useful for parades. That does not mean that there were no parades and sometimes accountability numbers are seen. But I think that only a relatively limited number of members would have had enough money to purchase their own factory made sidearm if they wanted to do so. When the shooting started the RAD came largely under the control of the Wehrmacht. And while it’s initial purpose was a physical labor force. That also changed and it became more of a Wehrmacht auxiliary force.

But the main point I am trying to make is that I don’t have a crystal ball, and don’t know if the hand made “replicas” are period or not. But in the context of what I know or think I know - I believe that some small scale replication could have occurred. Because I have seen many, many, examples of low level ersatz/substitute military issue items. Made more or less made by hand in small shops. So the idea of an ersatz handmade dress item for a poorly funded youth organization does not seem that strange to me.

As for the HJ knife I think that it’s a postwar fake with a very interesting “story”. Having over the years heard probably hundreds of “stories” from people trying to convince prospective buyers why a fake item is “the real article (genuine)”. I hope this clarifies my thoughts on the topic(s). Regards to All, FP

Very interesting topic gentlemen!You both make very valid points!I can only speculate on this topic.Regulations are regulations.However,My son graduated from high school this year.If I had not been able to purchase his tassel for his mortarboard(Hat),I would have taken every effort to make a replica.Regardless of what it took ,I would fabricate one for him.In life there are some things we must sacrifice for.Including our relics.Prototypes...I cant say.Trench art?Perhaps.I would hope personally,That they weren't just made to try and Screw someone!

To "Screw someone", that Geoff, we can only ponder! We live in a "dog eat dog" world where often, (thank God not always)the unscrupulous SOB who wants to make money no matter who is hurt in the process, will go to almost any length to "screw" the unwary.

I would venture to say that most, if not all of us, at one time or another in our lives, has been the victim and thusly, "been screwed"! I personally got another "dose" a bit over a month ago. Some folks just do NOT have the word HONESTY in their limited vocabularies.

I too hope that these wooden pieces were not put out to "screw" anyone just as you do Sir!

Regards, Lloyd

I think we all have been ripped of at some time, and I dare to say that most of us even have ripped someone else of. In most cases, when its about serious collectors, we didnt know it. But yes, some people (on ebay etc), have no honesty at all.

Having slept on it and thought much about it, I agree with Fred Prinz even more... A man has got to do what a man has got to do, and if you need a dagger and cant afford one, what do you do? I can see some occations when this could have happened. Geoff Ward has a great point; How fun is it to be the only one without a dagger (or a hat)? There are certain occations when I would have made replicas myself. It is not at all funny to be the only one who does not have a special "whatever", and therefore does not want to participate. We have all been shouting at our mothers because "all the others kids will wear this tomorrow" when we went to school, havent we?

So I agree with some of your points.

one thing thats made me wonder... how much did a hj knife cost back then?

cheers

evilmike, got an answer Sir, well, three answers.
"Atwood", pg 62, 1934 price, in US dollars, $1.60 (2.88RM).
"Angolia", ("Daggers Bayonets and Fighting Knives of Hitler's Germany"), pg 97, 2.88RM or $1.60 US.
"Johnson", ("Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich"), pg 78, "fixed" price of 4RM.

I wouldn't know who is "right", Mssrs Atwood & Angolia at $1.60 or Mr Johnson at 4RM which I calculate to be $2.22 US.

It would "seem" that the lower price would have been easier on the families and Angolia says the 2.88RM was 1/8th of a weeks salary for I would guess, an "average" German worker. This whole Solingen rebirth was to get money into that hurting City so I would go with 2.88RM or $1.60 US!

Hope this helps, Lloyd

A couple of observations: I like Angolia’s numbers myself which seem to be the same as in at least one period catalog. I think that like most currencies the value floated up and down. And I’ve seen lower values for the Reichmark, but don’t consider that particularly important one way or the other because only generic (not NS) models were exported. Period economics are another matter entirely IMO. And are an interesting approach I think to put into context what the “average” German was looking at when it came time to clothe, house, and feed himself (and perhaps his family) during the time of the Third Reich. And how much money the “average” worker might have had left to purchase party paraphernalia. However that kind of approach I think also could be ignoring some background factors that have a significant bearing on the topic.

What was “average”? A German Army private might make 31 RM. a month. But the “average” RAD worker made about 6 RM. a month. Factory and office workers usually received steady paychecks. But what about the farmers, or tradespeople. The laborers, or the large numbers of unemployed? Or what is “average” for a fifteen year old boy?

A lot more significant I think is that Germany during that period was largely agrarian not factory/urban. The United States during the same period also had a very large farming population. And there are a number of contemporary accounts of new soldiers who did not own a pair of shoes until they joined the U.S. Army. I am of German ancestry and not being disrespectful of the German people. But I have lived in a number of rural locations in Germany well after the war. And while it was not like subsistence farming in the South in the 1930’s, life was more primitive than in the cities. And the populace had a lot less in the way of material wealth and no ‘weekly paychecks’.

My point being that period pricing is an excellent tool for comparing one item against another. And for getting a sense of what it cost prospective buyers to purchase (dress) sidearms. However, I also think that it has to be considered not by modern standards - but in the context of that era. FP

Thanks for the info there!

The wooden HJ sold for about 321 USD...

Thanks for the update! It could always be that the knife’s buyer collects various handcrafted wood objects like cuckoo clocks, totem poles, (etc.). Who knows??

The wood used reminded me of a Swedish Mauser rifle stock. But aside from that, to me it’s simply amazing that a Third Reich collector would spend that much money on a “prototype”. A “prototype” where the emblem was not even on the correct side of the grip. And could not be seen if carried correctly. If he thinks of himself as a Third reich collector - he probably should consider investing in some “SS” combat bayonets with etched blades (not really). FP

My god, youre right! Cant believe I didnt notice the emblem before! Well, I guess that sums up the discussion (if there ever was one) about the object being a sample for RZM approval...

Youre right about the wood too (could somebody, please, once and for all tell me when to use the word "too", and when to use "to"? Its embarrasing).
It does look a bit like a swedish rifle stock...

I believe the buyer in this case was one of the people you are almost mentioning The etched K98-buyers... A quick look on what he/she has been buying reveals a vast list of... well, everything, actually. Everything thats repro, that is. I think its one of those news collectors who doesnt realize the amount of repros in the market, and that buys everything thats "evil nazi cool", especially fantasy pieces of every kind. Of course I could be wrong, though...

As for paying that much... I dont know. MAYBE, if I knew it really was a one of a kind sample for the RZM. But since that would be almost impossible to know for sure; nope. 50 dollars because its odd, perhaps, but not hundreds. I think most people wouldnt pay anything at all for something that risky, or even if they knew it was real. I would probably use the money to get some scarce or rare "more known" HJ stuff, myself...

"TO" versus "TOO"
Simply put, "TOO" can be likened to saying "ALSO". Ex: I am going "TOO". I collect daggers "TOO".

Now, "TO". Ex" I am going "TO" the store. We went "TO" the show.

Now, both in one sentence: I am talking "TO" you and "TO" you "TOO."

See how "TOO" is used just as "ALSO" is used?

Got it?

Lloyd

Someone like myself who occasionally indulges in ‘run on' sentences, typographical errors (like the lack of a capitalized “R” in the second 'Third Reich'), and other things should not be the one to give instruction in English. That said: “to” is used in giving directions like going “to the bank”. “Too” is used more for giving emphasis like “too funny”, or going “too far”. When in doubt myself I tend to change the sentence structure to something like: “You’re also right about the wood” or “You're right about the wood as well”. I wouldn't worry “too much" because I think that you do an excellent job of communicating. FP

"Run on sentences". Oh boy, I never learned much about paragraphs myself. Oh well.......

Lloyd