UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum LUFTWAFFE SURVIVAL MACHETE - ALCOSO

The forth is the same photo added to a later photographic experiment.

And the fifth is a closeup version of the experiment. FP

quote:

Originally posted by Trigger:

Also at p.342 in vol.3 of "Uniforms and Traditions of the Luftwaffe" is a pic of what appears to be a single specimen of this meat-cleaver in another type LW survival-kit.

It is not my intention to mess up this thread, but here is an excerpt of the pic in the book mentioned above.

Cheers,

Trigger, The more information there is the better!! There is also a picture that I’ve seen with the handle of a shovel sticking out of a bag along with what looks like some other survival supplies. All packed together in the bag - with what looks like the exposed ball tip and a portion of the body of a scabbard. That could be for a machete, and is protruding from the bag. Unfortunately, not enough is seen to be completely sure. FP

Fred, I don't really understand what the reflection exercise is supposed to demonstrate. The only known examples of the Buschmesser are blued steel and brass. No examples in aluminum or unblued steel have appeared since the appearance of the blade in Johnson's book. The photo in Die Woche appears to be bright brass with newish wood grip plates. Your photos in black and white use older blades with dulled finish. Apples and Oranges.

You are not happy with the reflection of the sun off the various surfaces. You have provided comparative photos, but I think that any comparison is useless, unless you provide a photo taken with a comparable camera and published in a comparable format.

Again, are there any other physical specimens of the Buschmesser in any material besides brass or blued steel? Are any marked in any way besides the Alcoso TM and E/B or the Alcoso TM without an acceptance mark. If you cannot accept the photo in Die Woche, then we cannot accept the photo of the supposedly blued steel version in other photo. So none of these Buschmesser are legitimate.

Totally agree with you JWotka

LH

quote:

Originally posted by Trigger:

quote:

Originally posted by Trigger:

Also at p.342 in vol.3 of "Uniforms and Traditions of the Luftwaffe" is a pic of what appears to be a single specimen of this meat-cleaver in another type LW survival-kit.

It is not my intention to mess up this thread, but here is an excerpt of the pic in the book mentioned above.

Cheers,

Whatever it is resembles a "bone saw" that was in a Wehrmacht field surgery kit that I owened eons ago. My blood still runs cold thinking of the needles in the transfusion kit that was included. I presume that the picture labels you mentioned were provided by the author of that book, or was it a period label applied to the PR photo? The photo of the winter emergency kit with the description of the Buschmesser in the LW emergency tool box was provided by Kriegsberichter Klose.

Bret/LH/JWotka:

I think that this is a great thread. No one is bad mouthing anyone else and differences of opinion along with back up to the arguments is what this forum is all about.

No one should get disappointed or disheartened by what is said here, it is all in the interests of advancing the hobby knowledge.

I, for one, have been following all of the discussions very keenly and have seen nothing to get upset about.

The three of you should be very proud of your arguments and your back up to them.

Keep it up, please.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Prinz (aka "Frogprince"):
Trigger, The more information there is the better!! There is also a picture that I’ve seen with the handle of a shovel sticking out of a bag along with what looks like some other survival supplies. All packed together in the bag - with what looks like the exposed ball tip and a portion of the body of a scabbard. That could be for a machete, and is protruding from the bag. Unfortunately, not enough is seen to be completely sure. FP

Is this the picture Fred? Can't make out a scabbard and the handle looks more like the end of a club of some sort rather the handle of a shovel.

Joe, Let me ask you this. Are you telling me the Germans never experimented? And never made field tests of experimental models testing different designs? Or did not sometimes make changes in the materials that things were made of?

The images are what they are. And I would have loved to have replicated the test using the same kind of camera. In the winter, in sunlight, with the gloves and uniforms, printing the photograph on paper etc. etc. But that’s just not practical, and I used what was at hand.

You make the argument: “The photo in Die Woche appears to be bright brass with newish wood grip plates.” That is your interpretation. But with a new machete with brass that has not aged. In direct sunlight, why does the blade in the Die Woche photo not show any noticeable highlights? Or for that matter the handle? Whereas things like the gloves and boots do.

Also, I intentionally did not post images showing reflected highlights. So I will have to see if I can find some that I discarded, so you can see for yourself. Best Regards, FP

quote:

But with a new machete with brass that has not aged.

Fred.
Are you saying my Machete is NEW ? Not aged ?

I have sevarals orginal SS daggers in mint conditions & Gravity knifes.
Some daggers and knifes are well stored and we collectors finding such items are very lucky
Here is 3 of them
The Chain dagger far left is also from Norway
1000 % orginal. Came from a house in Oslo.
Not aged so much. Its mint





And more not aged knifes.

One more close image of the Machete grip.

Fred, if I had been looking at that knap-sack in real life, the scabbard would have gone up my nostril. I can't believe I missed that da-mn thing. I am embarrassed and apologize for that lapse.

I pulled my blades out again Fred to look why they wouldn't reflect the sun. I pulled a couple SS daggers out to. I held the dagger blade up to my face and saw my reflection. I held the machete blade up and saw nothing. The blade has a matt finish. All of mine do. And I suspect the other do as well. So you have any to examine? Notice there is no reflection off the blade of the photo where the LW man is holding the blade closely in one hand and the scabbard with frog in the other. But the sun is directly above and behind the photographer and has cast a shadow of the scabbard on the man's pants. By your reasoning, there should be a reflection, but there isn't. So the blued machete is bad too? The only thing visible on the matt blades in both photos are the rub marks from the scabbard runners. Things that Johnson pointed out 30 years ago.

I made the rhetorical statement addressed to Houston and Bret, asking them how one could accept the blued machete version with only one photo existing to document it, while the brass one cannot be accepted because one cannot be sure if it is brass. Perhaps Houston has other issues with the brass or knows of other documentation for the blued steel version. Either way, the question was not answered.

You have asked me many questions that I have endeavored to answer, so I ask this to you. The single photo documentation I posted for the blued version of the Buschmesser apparently shows the same finish blade with the same type of runner (if that is the proper term) wear as the single photo documentation for the brass version. Why can you accept that photo as documentation of the blued version without any further knowledge of construction or procurement. Do you have some other documentation to rely on to authenticate the blued version? I would like to understand how you guys can accept the blued version without any more information than the brass.

PS. Regarding the question of scabbard screws. Both of my brass hilt police Flieger-Staffel Buschmessers have two scabbard screws. My steel commercial Buschmesser supposedly used by the LW has only one scabbard screw present.....the other is missing. I think that might be the case with JohnZ's scabbard in the other thread on this subject in this forum.

JWotka:

You are correct, my scabbard is for two screws, but one is missing.

John

Dear moderator. I would like to know why it is impossible to EDIT one's post over 24 hours after posting? Is it that difficult to provide a forum feature available on every other military forum on the web. At least the dozens I have visited?\

So I waste another post to add this PPS. to my above post. Fred. Of course the Germans never experimented and tests of experimental models and designs, and made changes production standards. But I must say that I don't see the connection to the two varieties of Buschmessers that are under discussion.

John Z, is your scabbard screw missing on the blade edge side of the scabbard? or on the back spine of the blade side? if its missing on the blade edged side(and maybe several are missing from that side!)it would seem to make some sense. Again i'm brain storming here no facts at all just tossing it out so dont consider anything i say a FACT. If the screws are missing on the blade edged side of the scabbard, those of you who have a machete check inside the the throat of the scabbard, mine has alot of wear going in and out. Maybe these screws were nicking the sharp edge or sticking out so far that they dulled the edge quickly? maybe the ones without the missing screw is not missing but left off by design. Maybe the trials you guys are talking of found out that the screw was dulling or nicking the edge and the factory left the screw out for a reason.
I spoke with Tom J the other day, we were going over some hang tag's and research of them and I ask about the ALCOSO catalogs, he has two the standard and another that lists the minis only. He said he has seen notthing that relates to any factory info on these. He said that when Fred Stephens re-printed the ALCOSO catalog that was the only game in town.sorta speak.
Also... since i'm brainstorming here.
I have done the big sin and took down my example, The screws were a bit buggerd anywho. The blade is just a hair loose so i figured someone may have tried to tighten the grip to take out the slack? The grip screws on my police type example are steel, magnetic. Some in the photos here look like brass screws are they??? yip I used the ultra new age scientific fridge magnet for my test!!! The tang on mine while rusty is not marked the grips are not marked,the brass under the grips is not marked. Again just throwing out some stuff no facts here, not making any conclusions and aint got a leg to stand on. BTW the photo is after i freaked a bit and oiled the tang, it was rusty!!
I did not clean anything inside and left the tang a bit loose as it was.lotsa grime inside the tang area.
feel free to steal these images for your files. Fred or anyone, if you want large images drop me a line.
Bret Van Sant

again

last one.

I have seen a blued Luftwaffe Survival Machete with saw teeth on the spine. It had a steel crossguard.

Richard Kuchta

Cog Hammer:

The grip screws on mine are magnetic as well. I used your secret fridge magnet test here.

Also, the missing scabbard screw is, as you suspected, on the blade side.

John

Joe, That’s OK. I had seen the picture before, and did not pick up on it myself when I first saw the photograph.

I think I have at least a couple of swords with the brush finish (matt) type blades. But they are more deeply fullered, and have steel hilts. And I was trying to match up brass with steel (with both being reasons why I used that Russian short sword). One of things I was trying to show with the images was that there was virtually no reflection from the blade in the Die Woche photograph. Which is why I pointed out the reflections on the gloves, boots etc., and tried to select blades that did not look like your average bright finished dress bayonet (ie: the “older blades with dulled finish”). That the second photograph is more or less comparable I think confirms that it just wasn’t some kind of an anomaly.

As for your question: “Why can you accept that photo as documentation of the blued version without any further knowledge of construction or procurement.”

I think that the photos themselves are documentation. They are just not the written kind that we all hope to find.

That you have been as successful as you have in finding documentation never ceases to amaze me. When Warren Odegard passed away I was able to obtain a few books from his personal collection, and I know that he had a lot of Luftwaffe documentation. Did he have something as regards the machetes? We will probably never know - and I have no idea what happened to his original source material. (Efforts were made to try and acquire at least some of it - but no success.)

My point being that for a lot of things, the proper documentation just does not seem to be available. So you use whatever you can find - even if its just a couple of photographs. And like that recent ‘Kulturzeichen’ discussion you may remember. Sometimes you might not achieve a final resolution. But you are still further ahead than you were before - which is a part of the discovery process.

As for: “Of course the Germans never experimented and tests of experimental models and designs, and made changes production standards.” I’m sure that’s a typo. Because for example with the Luftwaffe, we have the FG 42 variants, and too many other things across the board to even try and start listing. And the connection is this: What was there to prevent the Luftwaffe from having an (anodized ?) aluminum hilt made for tests??

Bret, You have some mind reading abilities??? Besides looking at the wood and finish on my friend’s early trademarked machete. I was going to prevail upon him to also let me take it apart to see what I could see. You beat me to it!! (We used to be close proximity neighbors, and I wasn't sure just when I was going to see him.)

And I would very much appreciate some larger images, here is my email address (delete the asterisks):

***fprinz2000@yahoo.com***

My Best Regards to All, Fred

quote:

Originally posted by JohnZ:
Cog Hammer:

The grip screws on mine are magnetic as well. I used your secret fridge magnet test here.

Same on my machete ! magnetic steel

Bret, Thank You!! I really appreciate the extra effort you went to to shed some more light on a tropic which has generated so much discussion. I also want to apologize for the delay in expressing my thanks. Between seeing the photos (which are giving me a lot to think about), and my having to get ready to go out earlier it momentarily slipped my mind.

As for the screws I seem to recall some with brass, but it’s been a while, so I can’t be sure and will have to look into it a little more. In the Die Woche photo the screws seem to be blued, or at least that is my interpretation of the image. Thanks Again!! Fred

Different opinions there and here.
For my opinion I trust only the blued steel Macheten. In Germany I found once such a Machete and it was also made of blued steel. Further in the time frame this LW Machete was issued brass was such an importend material that I assume it was way much worther at this time to uses it somewhere else. Many other materials was getting saved for other use, example the word "Ersatzmaterialien". That, you will find in exchange like for leather or many other products. I know very well how like the ammunition production was getting tied up that even the little things are getting saved to make the productions safe at this time.
Please remember also many Solinger companys made products after the war in the same manner like for south america etc.

Fred, you have mail
I am considering taking out the scabbard throat on mine also. The screws have not been turned at all on them so I'll head out to the shop and see what I have in the way of something that fits exact or will trim something down.
also in the 1/2 sized images I sent you you can see lots of gunk and grime. I really got out the jewelers attachment for my 4x glasses. (helps to have had vision problems in the past!!)I seen no marks of any type on the brass or even the wood or the tang for that matter. I know like many time on a red cross em you can see the casting flashing at the seams but the brass here is very fine. I'm not a big wood species person so not much help on the grips.
also...does anyone own one of those cleaver type of blades shown in that luftwaffe book photo??
Bret Van Sant

Bret, Thanks!! I got the images. I’m probably not going to do anything tonight, but in the morning will look at them. As for the scabbard, sometimes the mouthpieces are really in there tight, and I wouldn’t want you to damage it. Back when I was being “bad” myself I made up a set of tools to take apart different things without damaging them. I had a lot of fun, but am much more restrained now. Especially if the item is in good condition - I’m more inclined to leave it alone.

Robert, I can’t argue with your basic premise. Do you want to use the limited copper that you have for wiring for tanks, airplanes, submarines - or for machetes? I have some more thoughts on the matter, and I think some data, but regrettably not enough time at the moment.

Best Regards to you both, Fred

This has been a great discussion but I think it has reached its terminus.

Fred, I think your "interpretation" of the grip handle in the Die Woche magazine is shaky? The handle is covered by the crewman's hand. Besides, the steel spanner nuts and screws were not blued.At least in all of them brought to my attention.

Robert, I am sorry that your "opinion" of the brass machete is that it is untrustworthy because the Germans would not have used brass in this "time frame" because it was an essential war component? And what time frame would that be? Was Himmler's air force not an essential use? Would a command from the RSHA signed by Heydrich not have brought forth the order from the aryanized Alcoso firm, produced of police bayonets?

I prefer to deal with facts. Two period black and white photos (one with written confirmation) provide identification of the Buschmesser-one with a bright handle crossguard that is brass and another that is blued. The photo dates from winter 1941/42. The Germans were winning the war. Himmler's airforce was in existance and active. The photos show two production variations of the machete. Two exist in collections: brass and steel. Those are the facts.

The German blade industry produced a cheap version machete and these are found in published period catalog...with slab wood riveted grips and leather scabbards. Stories of S American or jungle contract use of the German police air corps and LW Buschmesser have been bandied about with no substantiation. And it defies logic that such equipment would be purchased for use in the tropics cutting cane. But that is only my opinion and I am looking for facts.

And the final fact is that a recognized world authority and author on WWII German edged weaponry, LTC Thomas Johnson, has authenticated the brass handle machete as an authentic piece of equipment used for emergency air corps equipment and published it in his volume III.

quote:

Originally posted by JWotka:
This has been a great discussion but I think it has reached its terminus.
----------------------
production variations of the machete. Two exist in collections: brass and steel. Those are the facts.

----------------------

And the final fact is that a recognized world authority and author on WWII German edged weaponry, LTC Thomas Johnson, has authenticated the brass handle machete as an authentic piece of equipment used for emergency air corps equipment and published it in his volume III.

The "facts" is the total essence always.
You need to have the "artifact" in your hands to make a proper judgement !

Thats all for now...and thanks for all opinions and posts.

LH

LH:
YOU MENTION ON YOUR POSTING OF 8 FEB. THAT THE MACHETE OWNED BY A FRIEND OF YOUR WAS FOUND IN A LUFTWAFFE M-30 SURVIVAL DRILLING CASE. WAS THE DRILLING STILL IN THE CASE? IF SO WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE TO GET SOME INFORMATION FROM YOUR FRIEND AS TO SERIAL NUMBER, DATE OF MFG AND WHAT LUFTWAFFE ACCEPTANCE STAMP IS ON THE LOCKING LUGS (L OR L2). IF THERE WAS NOT A DRILLING IN THE CASE, IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THE CASE MIGHT BE FOR SALE?
THANKS,
BOB

quote:

Originally posted by dietzwaffen:
LH:
YOU MENTION ON YOUR POSTING OF 8 FEB. THAT THE MACHETE OWNED BY A FRIEND OF YOUR WAS FOUND IN A LUFTWAFFE M-30 SURVIVAL DRILLING CASE. WAS THE DRILLING STILL IN THE CASE? IF SO WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE TO GET SOME INFORMATION FROM YOUR FRIEND AS TO SERIAL NUMBER, DATE OF MFG AND WHAT LUFTWAFFE ACCEPTANCE STAMP IS ON THE LOCKING LUGS (L OR L2). IF THERE WAS NOT A DRILLING IN THE CASE, IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THE CASE MIGHT BE FOR SALE?
THANKS,
BOB

Thanks for the input.
But i will not put pics of this here on the forum and i think the owner of this have the same opinions.
YES he have the cased drilling and many of the war time accessories,+ machete



LH

My interpretation is and was based on what I seem to be seeing in the photograph.  And the crossguard, and most of the upper end portion of the handle frame appear to be not covered by a hand - but in direct sunlight.  The lower screw is covered, and what looks it could be the upper is shaded and not very well defined.  

While I can’t argue that Himmler and the SS very often got what it wanted.  Didn’t Himmler himself suspend awarding his beloved Honor  Swords in 1941 or 1942 because of a lack of steel?  If Germany was having problems with steel manufacture - where it excelled. What about copper?  Germany was in fact very much at the bottom of the list when it came to copper resources (check it out).

And the Luftwaffe personnel in the photograph were under the control of Göring not Himmler.  And isn’t it true that in the 1930’s both the Luftwaffe - government property (acceptance and/or unit marked). And private sector dress sidearms went from being manufactured with nickel silver (2/3 copper) mounts to aluminum? And in the 1930’s - did not Göring himself have considerable influence?

As for Tom Johnson’s authentication. When I read his recent letter to us, I don’t remember seeing anything in it that specifically stated or reaffirmed that brass handled machetes were issued to the Luftwaffe. Was it there and I missed it?

There are some other factors that could be considered, but (IMO) there is nothing wrong with the basis for Robert’s statements. FP

Gents,
Just one thing I'd like to add here, -LOADS of pre-war manufactured equipment was used throughout the war.
I have personally dug up many 1935-1938 dated items dumped in situ by the germans here in Norway in may-june-july 1945.
Amongst the most crazy finds a ww1 Lewis machinegun...

So whatever is pictured in 1942 can be manufactured any year prior to this.

So I will never rule out an item based on its construction (brass-nickel-copper) as not an issued/used item during the war.
Even all of the field-cookers in use in 1945 (which I have found)are of a brass-alloy of some kind, so what is strange about a brass-crossguard on a machete that supposedly was in storage in a survival-kit??? Just proves it was acquired and put in use before the limitations in materials were put in effect.
In my humble opinion that is...

Best regards,

LH:
I COLLECT NOTHING BUT LUFTWAFFE DRILLINGS AND O/U's. HAVE PROBABLY THE LARGEST DATA BANK ON THIS SUBJECT ANYWHERE. THE INFORMATION I WAS ASKING FOR DOES NOT REQUIRE A PICTURE, JUST THE NUMBERS. ONCE I RECEIVE THE NUMBERS AND ENTER THEM THEY ARE "STERILE" (NO ID).
POSSIBLY YOU HAVE SEEN MY POSTING UNDER FIREARMS ON THIS WEB SITE.
THANKS,
BOB

LH:
OOOPS!!! MY DRILLING POSTING IS ON WHEREMACHT BADGES UNDER FIRARMS.
BOB

Da-mn, I promised myself that I would drop this thread. Fred, you have done a great job manipulating the argument to where we are trying to prove to you the authenticity of the machetes, brass or otherwise, when in reality both variations of the Buschmesser have been authenticated in period publications and current collector literature(see below).

Now really, it should be up to you (and Robert, Houston and any others) to provide source material to justify your refusal to accept one variation based on source photo evidence, but not another with equally valid source photo evidence. I know that this is difficult for you to accomplish, so you always fall back on opinions based on conjecture. That is what makes this hobby so great....and frustrating.
Both the brass and steel versions of the Buschmesser are documented pieces of emergency air crew equipment. But you are entitled to your opinions to the contrary.

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Prinz (aka "Frogprince"):
...As for Tom Johnson’s authentication. When I read his recent letter to us, I don’t remember seeing anything in it that specifically stated or reaffirmed that brass handled machetes were issued to the Luftwaffe. Was it there and I missed it?...FP

Fred, you are either a sloppy reader, which I doubt, or just trying to present a sly argument. I wrote "And the final fact is that a recognized world authority and author on WWII German edged weaponry, LTC Thomas Johnson, has authenticated the brass handle machete as an authentic piece of equipment used for emergency air corps equipment and published it in his volume III."

Both variations of the machete were identified (authenticated) and pictured in Johnson's volume III published in 1978 as I stated above. If you don't have it, I can send you photocopies. I made no mention of Tom's recent email statement, so why would you bring it up?

Trigger (Tor-Helge), As far as early equipment getting recycled, or continuing to be in service as long as it was usable. In Desert Storm I saw a picture of an airborne trooper with what had to be a U.S M-8 scabbard (+/- July 1943 to April 1944). Paired up with his much later M-16 bayonet. It was pretty beat up, but it did the job. No problem there.

Joe, No offense, but I brought it up because you did:

“And the final fact is that a recognized world authority and author on WWII German edged weaponry, LTC Thomas Johnson, has authenticated the brass handle machete as an authentic piece of equipment used for emergency air corps equipment and published it in his volume III.”

What I was trying to get across was that in the letter, Tom Johnson indicated, that he had read the thread. He had to know what all of this discussion was about (and he did have something to say to both you, and myself). So reason would seem to indicate that he knew what was going on. And had an opportunity to address the matter at hand. But he did not.

PS: I have a possible rationale in mind to explain at least some of these machetes. But am really curious to see if the steel types were made the same way, or are there some differences, or even markings?

Best Regards to All, Fred

I had spoke again today, with Tom J. on the matter of some hang tag research. I had ask him the other day about the ALCOSO catalogs in passing. and his response was what I had listed above. He has never added any other information other than what is stated in the Vol 3. on these weapons. Its my understanding that the info listed in that volume is what he has on the item/subject we are batting around here.Tom's reference books are one of the corner stones to the hobby and I would think that most here at least have a few if no all of the volumes of the 8. So if he had any new news I would think that it would have been shared. It seems we have all came at this from different directions with little info at the start and Joe and Fred have all made great points as with the member who posted the luft kit photos with the cleaver type pieces and with the other machete image that Joe posted. So we have 2 images and a 3rd that shows the scabbard drag/ball end sticking out of that kit, and lots of good stuff being thrown out. I make my comments just based on some brain storming and wild thoughts. if these were produced after the war,why dont we see more of them? Its evident that they are rare or some of the long time collectors would have chimed in here,Ron,Gailen and those fellows, with some facts or other stories about when they began to"see" these at shows. So I think that Fred if you got more thoughts just post them. I did tons of leg work on a 3 letter code maker to a railcar maker on a pistol forum and came out with zip but hell man!, I learned a ton about that company and looked at some nice coaches!! And on the police marked types...maybe we need to find a"police guru" who has tons of photos to help this along. If 2 images exist I'm sure that a few others are sunk into collections and they dont know they even have them. On the WA forum I was in contact with a collector with a large police collection several years ago, so I will see if I can bend his ear a bit on this. I dont think this is beat to death yet!
Bret Van Sant
I dont think this has been beat to death as of yet

Stop, don't leave the thread thinking that I broke my word and can't leave well-enough alone.

First, Fred, are you psychic? How do you know Johnson had read the entire thread, when all he referred to was the comments made by you and I (sent to him by Skipper) to which he took offense. And since when does not commenting on what he wrote and printed in 1978 need to be taken in a negative context? Of course it does if you are using it to prove your point. But on the other hand, I take it as meaning that he had nothing else to add to the valid facts he printed thirty years ago.

But that it another matter. Well, I read earlier in the thread about removing the scabbard throat piece to look at the parts. I thought, what the he-ll, and took a piece of wood dowel and a small hammer and tapped out the piece after carefully removing the screws. What a mess. Caked on grease and gunk. See below.

Oops.What's that I see on the spring near the rivet? Why its a WaA. WaA 883 to be precise. And isn't that a common WaA for Solingen companies?
Hmm. And its on the other spring too. Well what does this mean? The scabbard was made with III Reich parts.

Now, that WaA reminds me of another I had seen a couple of years ago. Where was it. Of course. In a thread on the P.S.s., I decided to investigate if there was any hidden marks inside the steel scabbard of that "police" bayonet. So I pulled the throat out.