#17413
01/04/2010 10:41 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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OP
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
Well, sad to say, it's happened again. I purchased a sword and paid through PayPal. The seller is DONALD KIRBY (donaldkirby5@aol.com). He claimed to be in the UK and that appears to be the case. The "purchase" was made on 10/4/09 and has not been received. He promised to refund my money if the sword was not received by Christmas. No refund, no sword, no responses to my mails. If anyone knows this person or his location, please advise me at clfdr@att.net. For your own benefit, don't expect PayPal or eBay to get excited about a client being defrauded.
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#17414
01/05/2010 12:05 AM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,084 Likes: 96
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,084 Likes: 96 |
Is he a member here ? and was it through one of our ads ?
Dave
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#17415
01/05/2010 12:38 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1 |
Ok Cliff: I suspect it time to go back in the mode we adopted with the Canadian scammer several years ago. Please provide all the information you have and let's go after him big time. For members in the UK please provide us with appropriate contact there. Jim
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#17416
01/05/2010 01:15 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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OP
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
Thanks, Dave and Jim. All I know is his name and email address. Neither PayPal nor eBay seem to care and would not accept my complaint. He does list on eBay and had excellent feedback. He had a grouping for sale there, sent me photos and the only item I was interested in was an early SS "nco" saber with runes engraved or etched on the front and the owner's initials on the back. According to him, the scabbard was repainted and the blade shows pitting toward the tip. According to Paypal, this was an "across border" transaction, so it is likely he is in the UK. He did say in an email he was in the processs of changing flats (apartments). I got the impression he at least visits GDC on occasion, but I don't know if he is a member. I suppose the money is gone, but I would not want others to be taken by him and anything I can do to bring heat on him will give me satisfaction. I don't think British authorities take much interest in such matters.
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#17417
01/05/2010 02:02 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 826
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 826 |
Sorry to hear that Grumpy, very upsetting.
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#17418
01/05/2010 02:02 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,532 Likes: 5
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,532 Likes: 5 |
Sorry to hear this Grumpy.
What's this guys user name on ebay?
Hope we all can do whats right to help Grumpy out on this and I know he's the type who would do the same for you.
This kind of dishonesty ruins it for all.
Any lawyers or law enforcement officials who are GDC forum members in the UK please help this deserving guy out.
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#17419
01/05/2010 02:52 AM
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,870 Likes: 6
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,870 Likes: 6 |
Hi Grumpy...Sorry for your situation
Same thing happened to me a few years ago with a RAD hewer which I hunted down on eBay. If the guy has an eBay account best thing to do is file a police report and they will be able to glean the personal information he supplied to open the eBay account. They can in turn contact the UK authorities close to where he resides. From my experience if police contact police something is more likely to happen. Seems to be a lot of thieving and scamming going on lately.
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#17420
01/05/2010 02:35 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 461
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 461 |
i see people on here contacting the police in the US and read later of how people have been contacted and in some cases brought to book. i hate to be the bearer of bad news, but i`d be speechless if the british police showed any interest in this case whatsoever. many forces don`t even send officers out to burglaries now, so i honestly think that you would have no chance of them giving you any help. or even answering any e-mails you may be able to send should you know the address of the man, who it seems scammed you.
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#17421
01/05/2010 04:41 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,403
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,403 |
Blueboy has it bang to rights. UK police do not give a monkey's nut about this type of scam.
I am getting to thinking that some form of escrow needs to be in place for this type of transaction. Money held by a third party until goods received and as described. The sender being responsible for insurance and posting up until the point of receipt. Now I agree this could be turned on it's head and the buyer could lie. However it seems to me that in the majority of cases it is the sender that has the most protection.
Even if the buyer lies the seller can still claim insurance value and all that is lost is the item.
The other option is a courier system. Find out from the forums if anyone is visiting the country of origin and pay them a small fee to collect the item for you.
With high value and rare items it might be better to simply fly across and collect it personally.
Maybe we need to set up a rogues gallery of names and scams. Without abuse this could be quite handy to have access too.
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#17422
01/05/2010 08:16 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,126 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,126 Likes: 1 |
Ebay/paypal will intercede on your behalf for a non delivered item - Not months later though. You should have made your complaint within 30 days, if he could show no proof of shipping your refund would have been automatic.
Doug
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#17423
01/05/2010 09:09 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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OP
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
Thanks for the good thoughts and words. I expect nothing from British authorities on this. What is astounding is that eBay and PayPal won't even take my information as a matter of record, thus enabling this thief to continue to use both to defraud others.
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#17424
01/06/2010 12:48 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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OP
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
The murky waters have been stirred. We'll see what happens.
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#17425
01/18/2010 11:19 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 43
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 43 |
What is this guys ebay name?
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#17426
01/19/2010 04:56 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291 |
Grumpy-
That name sounds very familiar. I'll go through my transaction records and emails..perhaps i've spoken with him or even purchased from him in the past...I just don't recall. Like I said, the name sounds familiar. I'll look and see what I have and if I do have anything, i'll send you a PM or an email.
PS- His AOL account under that username states it has been cancelled. I assume by him, the member. There is no other information available on that member from AOL.
Tom
_______________________
German Sabers
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#17427
01/19/2010 08:13 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,200 Likes: 2
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,200 Likes: 2 |
GDC silver member #393
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#17428
01/23/2010 09:01 AM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 734
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 734 |
If I can e of help please PM. If you have an address ?
Always buying Blood Orders.
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#17429
01/23/2010 05:29 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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OP
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
Sorry, Jon, no address. He advertised a grouping on eBay. I asked for photos and the sword was the only thing of interest to me. We agreed to a purchase of it and I send funds by PayPal. He did have a good eBay feedback record on quite a number of items, so I thought he was ok. I do believe he is using his true name. I forwarded information to Scotland Yard, who said it would be referred to their fraud unit. I finally got through to eBay and PayPal with a complaint, but if they took any action, I'm unaware of it. I also complained to the British Embassy in Washington and received an email that they get dozens of similar complaints daily. They referred me to US authorities. I've pretty much written the money off, but would like to make the seller aware that his theft didn't go unnoticed and perhaps make him a bit uncomfortable. Thanks very much for the interest.
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#17430
01/23/2010 06:03 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,532 Likes: 5
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,532 Likes: 5 |
Grumpy-
What I'm not understanding is can't you get his adress from a ebay transaction?
Paypal seems to be pretty good with keeping adresses and bank account information current and in good order.
Still wondering what his ebay user name is or did he dump this account that was in good standing?
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#17431
01/23/2010 07:43 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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OP
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
Dean, I haven't checked it out lately, but his eBay name is donaldkirby. Ebay said they could release no information to me regarding my complaint. It was not an eBay transaction. His initial ad was on eBay, but the sword was sold off eBay privately. Ebay and PayPal have ignored it. I suppose he can continue to scam on both, as far as they are concerned.
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#17432
01/23/2010 07:52 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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OP
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
I just checked it. There is a "donaldkirby" active on eBay, who is located in California. I doubt if this is the same Donald Kirby, since PayPal noted my transaction was "across borders." I wouldn't want the California Donald to catch any undeserved grief. His transactions don't indicate German collectibles being involved. However, I suppose it could be slightly posssible it's him. Perhaps a bit more research?
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#17433
01/23/2010 08:17 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,532 Likes: 5
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,532 Likes: 5 |
I don't think thats your guy either because of your previous statement about his good feedback (this D.K. only has 12 feedback with a account thats been around since 2003). Knowing his exact ebay user name would be key information. If you had that you could maybe enter into a transaction for something cheap and that would give you access to his adress,phone #,ect... Ebay will give you that info only if your involved in a transaction. http://pages.ebay.com/help/search/members.html
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#17434
01/23/2010 08:21 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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OP
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
Unfortunely his eBay name is something I don't have. I made a direct inquiry to PayPal for his address information and to verify he is in the UK. I anticipate a lot of double talk from them stating they must protect their members' privacy, etc. I did determine he is still active on PayPal, so it is indeed a thief's haven.
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#17435
01/23/2010 08:51 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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OP
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
I'm pretty sure Kirby is outside the US. He did state he was moving to a new flat and had to buy all new furniture for it, so any address based on his email address could well be his former one. I found no evidence that he holds an email in the US. If our UK brethren could conduct a reverse email inquiry for the UK, it would help immensely. I will gladly reimburse them for any positive information obtained.
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#17436
01/23/2010 11:28 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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OP
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
Gentlemen, this might be of help. The sword in question is an early "NCO" saber with SS runes etched or engraved on the front langet. The owner's initials are engraved (?) on the reverse langet. They are the "intertwined" type and one appears to be a "W." The area near the tip of the blade (several inches) is badly pitted. He said the scabbard had been repainted. If you have seen this saber advertised, have been offered it, have seen it at a show, etc., please so advise. I suspect he may have sold it or tried to sell it at the time I dealt with him (early October, 2009), or prior. The possibilty exists he still has it. Many thanks!
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#17437
01/23/2010 11:35 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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OP
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
Here is the sword: Early NCO saber with SS runes etched or engraved on the front langet. The reverse has the owner's initials in an entwined pattern. One appears to be a "W." Several inches of the blade tip are badly pitted. He said the scabbard has been repainted. IF you have seen this sword, seen it advertised, etc., please so advised. Also, please remain alert in the event it is advertised, for sale at a show, etc., in the future. I only wish to further identify the seller. Many thanks!
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#17438
01/24/2010 12:12 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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OP
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
I went on the net and found a UK telephone directory. I checked many major cities for Kirby and found that all listings reflect the first initial only (D. Kirby). Of those I found, only ONE shows a flat address. This may or may not be the Kirby of interest, but the following information was found:
D.Kirby Flat H, 5 Phillip Square London SW8 3RU Telephone: 020-7627-8643
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#17439
01/24/2010 06:07 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,126 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,126 Likes: 1 |
Would probably be best not to publish any personal info until you are sure you have the right guy. There are likely 100's of D. Kirbys in the UK, would be a shame to potentially smear or even involve in any way in this sordid affair an innocent party.
Doug
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#17440
01/24/2010 05:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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OP
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
Doug, I generally agree with you. I don't think this was a "smear" in any sense of the word. I don't know if this "D. Kirby" is the right person or not and have not indicated that he/she is. It's just a possibility. It is my hope to locate the individual involved in my situation and this information could be considered as a "lead" only. I would never condone a baseless accusation or harassment in any form against an innocent individual or one who has not been determined to be culpable. As an investigator (criminal and civil) for 37 years, I have learned a few lessons. One is to seek out a subject and develop leads to locate him. That's all this is. A quick nonconfrontational call to the number may determine if "D. Kirby" listed there is Donald Kirby. If not, dead end. If so, the matter needs to be pursued further and referred to the police. Please remember we are dealing with a thief. For the record, PayPal will release no personal information on its members without a subpoena, even in a criminal matter. In these situations, the cards are well stacked against the victim. Maybe that's why there are so many crooks using the system.
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#17441
01/25/2010 08:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
Most people are not in the phone book these days, there are several donald kirbys on friends reunited. You need more information TBH to do much more.
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#17442
01/25/2010 08:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
Get someone to paypal him £10 to that paypal address with a note like.
Dear Donald
Here is a little something for not managing to catch up with you at Christmas. I do hope you are well, I am using my (son in laws?) paypal account to send you this as I dont have one.
I seem to have misplaced your address when my PC crashed. Perhaps you would be kind enough to send it to him to pass on so I can drop you a Birthday party invite in the post.
Speak soon
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#17443
01/25/2010 08:49 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
You never know stuff like this has worked for me before worth a try for £10
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#17444
01/25/2010 09:16 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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OP
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
Thanks. There are encouraging developments. It will be a few days to know how they turn out.
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#17445
01/30/2010 07:04 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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OP
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
The matter has been resolved. Many thanks to those who offered assistance and those who participated.
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#17446
02/02/2010 09:52 PM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 734
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 734 |
Sorry Grumpy I only just checked back in.Good to hear you got resolution.Did you get the sword or your money back?
Always buying Blood Orders.
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#17447
02/08/2010 02:07 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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OP
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
Sorry for the delay in replying. Funds were returned, less PayPal fees.
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#17448
02/08/2010 02:18 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,532 Likes: 5
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,532 Likes: 5 |
Glad you got most of your money back Grumpy,but you sure didn't deserve all the months of aggravation and worry. At least it's over with now without too much money out of your pocket. Hope if this seller intentionally caused this some bad karma will be coming his way.
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#17449
02/08/2010 02:38 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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OP
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
Thanks for the sentiment. Yes, getting almost all the money back is better than getting none back. The aggravation factor can be intense. Occasionally, there is some justice in the world.
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#17450
02/09/2010 07:54 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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OP
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
I must report the sword in question arrived today, some 4 months after being mailed from the UK. I have never experienced such a delay in delivery before, especially from the UK! I have sent repayment to the seller and apologized for any problems. I think the main problem, other than late delivery, was the cessation of communications from the seller. I hope everyone will consider the seller, Donald Kirby, to be truthful and trustworthy.
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