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#175646 01/04/2008 04:50 PM
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Postman delivered this to my door this morning, I am really pleased with it Smile

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#175647 01/04/2008 04:51 PM
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#175648 01/04/2008 04:51 PM
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#175649 01/04/2008 04:53 PM
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#175650 01/04/2008 04:54 PM
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#175651 01/04/2008 04:55 PM
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The blade looks really nice in the flesh but its the flash!

#175652 01/05/2008 07:02 PM
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Nice unusual vertical hanger but on a RZM dagger????????

#175653 01/25/2008 01:20 AM
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Isn't a Kraftwagenberietschaft a little early for a RZM dagger?


"History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is." Thomas Jefferson
#175654 02/20/2008 04:59 PM
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Hi
NSKK-KWB was disbanded in 1935. Nothing to do on RZM blade.
Cheers

#175655 02/20/2008 05:13 PM
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Hmmm bought from Wittmann with full life long warranty of authenticity along with translation and research etc... I have all the paperwork and proof along with the discription etc. Was quite pricey as well as it was on his specials page!.

#175656 02/20/2008 09:20 PM
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who is the maker?

#175657 02/21/2008 02:30 AM
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The bottom inscription appears to be
at a slight angle,or is it just the picture?

I also wonder why this inscription was used on a RZM Dagger like others have said the NSKK-KWB was disbanded in 1935?

Regards,

Sepp GDC 0292 Gold

#175658 02/21/2008 09:53 AM
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Hi

This was wittmanns discription of this piece when i bought it

SPO - 078 - 26512 - Mid-Period NSKK E.M. with Dedication RZM M7/91 (Spitzer)

This dagger was produced about 1938 or 1939. It is equipped with all plated fittings throughout. The fittings have a good patination over them and they would clean up quite a bit, if someone elected to do so. The tang nut and crossguards are all in good condition, still having most of their plating intact. There is no buggering to the tang nut, and this piece does not appear to have been apart. The grip is a brown tobacco color, having vertically running grain. The grain is fairly prominent in the wood. Overall, this grip is in good condition, and nicely fits the crossguards. The SA runes button is perfectly placed, and has 100% enamel. The grip eagle is a nickel variety and it is the style with beak-which-points-upward slightly. This eagle still shows good detail throughout his head, breast feathering, wing feathering, wreath, and swastika. This grip nicely fits the crossguards. The scabbard of this example is straight throughout. It has fine original black paint. The paint has a patina over it, and I’m sure this would clean up, if the next owner chooses to do so. The paint looks to still be 100%, having only minor age in its finish. The scabbard mounts are the nickel-plated type, and they too have patina finish, and will come up factory bright if cleaning were desired. The lower ball is in good condition, and has never been dropped. The original dome head screws are in place, and appear unturned. There is an interesting black leather vertical hanger in place on this scabbard. The hanger is the type that has a crossover leather retainer below the upper scabbard fitting. This retainer has a shape that is close to that of the lower portion of the scabbard fitting, but it does not fit exactly snug beneath. There is also a retainer strap, with nickel plated buckle. The body of the vertical is long and thin. At the middle section is another retainer loop, which has a snap mechanism designed to keep the grip of the dagger in place. At the top is a solid nickel snap clip, the type of which is unmarked. This is an unusual original vertical hanger here, which is worth quite a bit in its own right. The blade of this example is still nice and bright on the obverse. It has some minor age in it, which could clean out if the next owner would elect to do so. The blade, though, is still bright, and has all of its original crossgraining in the surfaces. The SA/NSKK motto is crisp and deeply etched, having nearly 100% of its blackening in the backgrounds. On the reverse of the blade, it is also nice and bright, with only minor smudges in a couple of areas. The reverse of the blade is factory etched, with a 2-line dedication. The etching exactly matches the backgrounds of the obverse, and is beautifully done in gothic letters. The dedication reads, “Gewidmet von der Kraftwagen/Berieitschaft II/72”. This dedication would translate, “Given by the Motor Corp of the Reserve Group II/72”. The reverse ricasso is matching etched, with a double circle shaded RZM circle. This large circle is positioned over the code of the Spitzer firm, “M7-91”. The blade shoulders nicely fit the crossguard contour. There would be some research here possibilities, if someone wanted to find out about this NSKK Reserve Group. Either way, it is an outstanding blade with a choice dedication. This is a great original dagger, and very rare to come by. An exciting example for the right person. Excellent, Plus (26512) $2,395.00

#175659 02/22/2008 02:18 PM
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Just curious..no more comments on this dagger?


Tom
GDC Gold Badge # 0062
#175660 02/22/2008 03:14 PM
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Nimble1, what kind of comments are you lookling for?


"History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is." Thomas Jefferson
#175661 02/22/2008 09:53 PM
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Guymauve, and also Jon Shallcross,

Would you please reveal the source information which shows that the NSKK-KWB was disbanded in 1935.

Thank you

FJS

#175662 02/23/2008 12:38 AM
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Handbuch des NSKK
Organisationsbuch der NSDAP 1.Auflage (1936 edition does not list a KWB as a NSKK unit)

or

Modern source
Angolia/Littlejohn's "NSKK NSFK"


"History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is." Thomas Jefferson
#175663 02/23/2008 01:48 PM
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Jon,
I certainly can't speak for the authinticity of the dagger but I love it when something like this is posted. If it were out of the woodwork and not from a "major player" who says its OK then it would be torn apart. Its just amusing.For the buyer, I hope that it is correct as he dropped a lot of money on it. I like the dagger myself.


Tom
GDC Gold Badge # 0062
#175664 02/23/2008 02:00 PM
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i'm just curious. Is the dagger okay but with a post war etch? Are dedications usually not found on RZM blades? Im not interested in slamming Tom's rep. Would just like to know more.


silver #307
#175665 02/23/2008 02:12 PM
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Mike,
I have no reputation to slam...LOL No offense taken.
I am just going by the statement that the NSKK unit was disbanded before the RZM dagger was produced and its a little unusual. A lot of RZM daggers show up with earlier dedications and most are said to be added just to increase the value. I hope that in this case the dagger is good.


Tom
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#175666 02/23/2008 02:45 PM
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quote:
Guymauve, and also Jon Shallcross,

Would you please reveal the source information which shows that the NSKK-KWB was disbanded in 1935.

Thank you

FJS

Hi
my sources :
"Das Braunhemd" (1934)
"NSKK-Anzugsordnung" (11 Januar 1935)
Just a question : did you think that there was RZM blades in 1934?
Cheers

#175667 02/23/2008 02:52 PM
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The unit being disbanded pretty much proves to me that the Dedication is post-war, but is not the only thing I dislike about the dedication.

The only thing I can say about the dagger, what a bad job of fitting the grip to the crossguards, but that alone does not make the dagger questionable.


"History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is." Thomas Jefferson
#175668 02/23/2008 03:01 PM
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Damn I just undone the clip on the hanger to take these pics and it came apart as the leather is old and delicate!! at this rate it will be worth nothing by the time people have finnished commenting on it!.

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#175669 02/23/2008 03:02 PM
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another

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#175670 02/23/2008 03:04 PM
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more

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#175671 02/23/2008 03:06 PM
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#175672 02/23/2008 03:08 PM
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#175673 02/23/2008 03:09 PM
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#175674 02/23/2008 03:10 PM
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#175675 02/23/2008 03:16 PM
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Mongo..sorry about the leather, and I do think its a beautiful dagger. And I don't think the grip fit is bad at all.
I guess it boils down to the idea if you are happy with it then its OK. I know I have one or two in my collection like that!


Tom
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#175676 02/23/2008 03:20 PM
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As the owner of this piece I would openly welcome your opinions on it. Now I have never had a factory dedicated one before so I have nothing to compare it with. Basically I bought it from Tom Wittmann because of his reputation and would have left it alone from anywhere else. That being said he has a good reputation so if it is not right and we know the reasons for it then please tell me as it is not right keeping quiet for fear of offending someone.

Even the best people get caught out sometimes, its not the mistakes that are problems but how people deal with them that are reputational!.

So if it is a lemon I would like to know especially as it was quite a costly piece. I do really like the piece myself assuming it is what it is meant to be and a period piece.

#175677 02/23/2008 03:25 PM
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I have to retract my statement about the grip fit. In the orginal pictures the shadows make the fit seem pretty bad, in the second set of pictures the fit appears okay.


"History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is." Thomas Jefferson
#175678 02/23/2008 03:30 PM
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The grip fit is not the best and it is quite loose, having said that it is done up rock solidly (and im not going to use anything to try and tighten it up) so it might be shrinkage. The grip hangs over the lower crossguard by about 1-2mm each side. But the fit to the side of the cross guards is less than 1mm each side.

#175679 02/26/2008 03:21 AM
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Is it possible that something like this would have been given out to this guy after he served in this unit. Maybe he was retired and his buddies wanted to recognize him at a later date by giving him a dagger?


Best Regards,
Scott R.
#175680 02/26/2008 02:54 PM
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FROM YOUR PICTURES, I don't see much to discredit the originality of the dagger itself. Looks like a typical RZM NSKK to me.
As for the dedication, there are numerous examples of ORIGINAL period pieces for units or training classes that were out of existance when the piece was given in rememberance, especially among the early SA, SS and NSKK units.
I would have to see the claimed paperwork before I would condemn this piece.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria


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#175681 02/27/2008 06:44 PM
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I have seen a few dedication early SAs and the only way to prove that dedication is period factory is to compare front side motto of the blade with back side dedication and they have to be of the exact the same texture, depth and looks. In other words, done at the same time.
All other dedications, we can just speculate about with out any proof, the dedication means nothing, and in my opinion, I would not pay extra just for a questionable dedication on the blade. Again, not to discourage the buyer, this is only my opinion.

#175682 03/03/2008 06:47 AM
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I‘m very sorry to see that the dagger’s leather was damaged in the investigative process. That kind of occurrence causes considerable anguish to those it happens to and their friends who share the same interests. Frown Frown

I also am going to have to agree that the dagger itself does seem to have been disassembled at some point. Not particularly caring for the grip fit and some possible damage - in combination with what appears to be a flawlessly finished scabbard. My sense of it (from the images seen so far) is that the scabbard might be a replacement.

And, while I generally tend to agree with the idea of many faked items not matching up to period facts. I’m not so sure that is the case with this example. Having also seen a fair number of items that were purchased to honor former members of various organizations well after the units had been disbanded. FP

#175683 03/07/2008 07:07 PM
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The dedication states it was "Given by", this is not a rememberance piece.


"History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is." Thomas Jefferson
#175684 03/08/2008 06:25 AM
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I am confused....so is someone saying that Tommy Whitmann sold a post war etched dagger??? If someone is certain of that shouldn't Tom be informed of the allegation?

#175685 03/09/2008 06:28 AM
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Hi
sorry, I don't speak good in english; if anyone can translate my french words?

Je ne suis pas un spécialiste en dagues mais je m'intéresse principalement à tout ce qui est NSKK.
Les "Kraftwagen Bereitschaften" n'existent plus après 1934, remplacées un moment par les unités "K" et les unités "M". Les unités "K" à leur tour disparaissent à leur tour au plus tard en 1936 comme par exemple ici :


Je ne sais pas si des unités KWB ont été reconstituées pendant la guerre, c'est pour cela que j'ai pensé aux KWB d'avant 1935.
Concernant la gravure sur la lame, je ne peux rien vous dire de plus.
Cheers

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