UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum MY NEW SA PUMA DAGGER

THIS IS MY FIRST POST AS I JUST BOUGHT MY FIRSTDAGGER.I PROBABLY OVERPAID FOR IT ,BUT TOOK A GAMBLE ON IT ANYWAY.ITS A SA SPECIAL PRESENTATION DAGGER WITH THE NAME KURPFALZ ON THE LOWER CROSSGARD.THE UPPER AND LOWER CROSSGARDS ARE EDGED WITH OAKLEAVES.THE TOP SCREW HAS A NAZI EMBLEM ON TOP.THE MAKER ON THE BLADE IS PUMA WITH A PICTURE OF A PUMAHEAD WITH SOLINGEN ON THE BOTTOM.THE BLADE AND HANDLE ARE IN EXCELLENT CONDITION WITH EXPECTED WEAR.CAN ANYONE GIVE ME SOME INFO ON THIS AND TO ITS WORTH?I DONT HAVE ANY PICTURES RIGHT NOW.THANKS IN ADVANCE.

Hello,
please post some pic's .

Looking forward to seeing the pics when you get them.

DEUTSCHER AND SDP I WOULD IF I KNEW HOW.ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS THAT I CAN ANSWER FOR NOW.IM GETTING NERVOUS ABOUT IT.

Joe... do you have someone who can help you with the photos?

Pictures are the best way to go so other members have a better idea to form an opinion.

SDP I WILL TRY TO GET MY SON TO DO IT,GUESS IM TO OLD FOR THIS,HANG IN THERE WITH ME VIELE DANKE JOE

Click on my name on the left for my e-mail and post me the pictures, I will host them for you no problem

Posting for Joe >>>>

It's pretty - no doubt about that.

The dagger looks genuine too - so that it good.

My only concern is the engraving on the crossguards and the pommel nut. Although I have seen a couple SA's that were generally accepted to be period done - they are pretty rare. I don't believe I have ever seen this pattern and I think it is most likely post-war engraved.

I am not an expert - but I wouldn't have paid more for this dagger than I would a similar condition early SA (and I'd probably pay less)

Sorry if that isn't what you wanted to hear Joe.

Don't know where these come from, but the engraving is fake. Have seen 3 with this exact style of engraving. EXACT down to the swaz on the pommel nut. Same in every way. Nice looking, but fake.
Denny

Joe:
Would you be willing to tell us who this dagger was purchased from?
Jim

JIM M. I PURCHASED THIS DAGGER FROM DMZ MILITARY ANTIQUES IN ST. AUGUSTINE FLORIDA.I GUESS ILL TAKE IT BACK NOW.ITS A SHAME AS ITS A BEAUTY.DENNY THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT,HOPE I DONT HAVE A PROBLEM GETTING MY MONEY BACK.ANY OTHER OPINIONS WILL BE WELCOMED JOE

I would first e-mail photos to Tom Wittmann/ Tom Johnson before taking it back. They are VERY willing to help out. I like to gather lots of input before sending any odd dagger back. The outcome may be better than you think. I have a Ultra rare U-boat engraved divers knife that some dealers thought to be fake from the photos,,,,, HOWEVER! Tom Johnson wanted to buy it for big$$! SO be carefull here, I could be a real jewel.

Joe
By ALL means take it to Wittmann. My opinion is just that. MY Opinion. However, I wouldn't buy it unless circumstances and price added up to me...since I'm a tad suspicious. (Johnson has a very similiar piece pictured in one of his reference books, but that doesn't validate this or any other "oddity".)

I owned a piece (and have seen 2 others besides that one) like the one you picture that came from the Western US. I struggled with authenticity myself and came to the conclusion that I'd bought a cow......

Gave it away to a friend as an example of what NOT to trust/buy.....

One honest gentleman who happened to be a dealer, told me that there was no absolute method that could be used to say that engraving was fake even though it was most likely done Post-war.

You spend your money and you take your chances, BUT try to explain some of these things away as you attempt to sell......Nigh on Impossible task.

Attached is a pic of the top of the crossguard on the SA I owned. Pretty, but bad.....

Denny

I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR MORE OPINIONS FROM MEMBERS ON THIS SUBJECT IF POSSIBLE,BEFORE MY TIME RUNS OUT.MANY THANKS JOE

Can you divulge the price? That would help us to help you make the right call.

Mark

If I was in this situation, I would take it to someone, (like Wittmann or Johnson), to get a "hands on" opinion as quickly as possible. Although photos give a very good idea to our excellent experienced members here, it's always good for peace of mind, in a case like this, to have it confirmed one way or the other, once and for all.

If it cost me a lot of money, (which I can't afford to throw around) and my inspection time was nearly up, I would take it back for a refund. I would want to be happy and know that my newly aquired piece was 100% original, without any doubts or having to make any allowances for it.

For your further interest, a piece with very similar engraving was sold in the Hermann Historica Auction, No. 49, 21 October, 2005, Lot 847 - alleged to be an SA presentation to the named recipient Otto Telschow (supposed Gauleiter of East Hanover). Although Gauleiters did not wear daggers - I suppose he could also have been a member of the SA.

What I find interesting is that the maker of the piece is Gustav Neff, of Solingen. The one that Joe Linge is showing us is trademarked by Puma.

The piece referred to Johnson is in Volume 1, page 238, presentation to Karl Ernst, althoughy Tommy doesn't state who the manufacturer is.

Another example has been featured on this site earlier this year by Deutscher - who piece bears the name of Kurt Knoblauch - and yet his piece is trademarked by Kober, of Suhl. It also has an SA Group mark on the reverse of the crossguard - suggesting that it started life as a standard pattern Model 1933, before it was enhanced with the engraving and naming.

So as you may now be suspecting, these pieces, with seemingly identical form engraving (there are some small differences other than the names) all appear to be engraved by the same craftsman, and yet the daggers are from different manufacturers. This starts to ring little alarm bells with me - but I will stop short of condemning them until I know more - certainly would like the chance to handle on in person.

By the way, Denny Roach, good of you to show us the top of the upper guard on the one that you once had. Do you have any other photos of it that you can share with us? I would be very interested to see them.

I will try and attach an immage of the Otto Telschow piece as portrayed in the catalogue.

FJS

PS Just checked my image, it is a cpt so will have to change it to a jpeg. I will send it right after this.

FJS
I do have some. Mine had a name on front as well. Will post pics ASAP. I just get very suspicious when I see an item like this start showing up in, what I consider to be, large numbers. Thanks for chiming in here and helping Joe with your valued opinion.....
Denny

Hi Denny,

Thanks for your fast feedback, we will all look forward to your photos in due course.

I had trouble uploading my photos, so I have e-mailed them to Dave Hohause in the hope that he can put them up for me (I'm not good with modern technology - even my computer is so old that it has stone tablets for keys!)

FJS

Series of pics om "formerly owned" SA "engraved. AS I stated earlier, I gave it awy with the admonition that is was FAKE. Pretty, but FAKE.
Denny

2

3

4

5

Denny:
It appears that everything else is legit. except the crossguards and pommel nut. Is this correct?
Jim

Glad that an Expert weighed in on this topic! Thanks Mr Stephens.

Joe
Fred Stephens is the recognized expert in the field of repo'd daggers. He should prove to be quite enlightening around this subject. ANYONE needing to keep pics, feel free to do so and use for your library of fake stuff.........

Denny

PS I was skeptical about this dagger from the day I laid hands on it. It was "too" pretty to ignore and Hope sprang eternal w/me. I finally couldn't ignore the signals that caused me to toss and turn at night.... Fit was very nice on all parts and all appeared original. I did have doubts about the blade, but it also seemed real from all I saw internally. I was, however, NO expert......

Not being an expert by a long shot I would look at this dagger as a "Display Piece"only.As FJS said all different mfg.I don't think daggers were called back from there owners (reason for different mfg.)and engraved.This should have been a contract with a mfg.for the fittings which could have also happened.I guess this is one of the many mysteries of the hobby.I think Mark called it right how much is it and can you live with the piece and the price?

I have had to come back and look at this issue again, because something is really baffling me about Joe's dagger - its the name on the crossguard: KURPFALZ.

Now, as far as I can find out, Kurpfalz does not exist as a family name. Type in "Kurpfalz" on Yahoo, or Google - and you will find thousands of entries, the main ones being for the Hotel Kurpfalz in Munich.

What Kurpfalz also means is a Palatinate - that is to say a type of electoral region. Go to the Wikipedia free encyclopaedia, and key in "Kurpfalz", and it will give you a clearer explanation of the meaning of the name in this context.

So this is starting to look a little more questionable by the minute. It is OK to have a Hotel Kurpfalz, or a Kurpfalz University, but I would question it as a family name. To make an analogy, it would be like someone saying that their family name was "Grand Junction" or "Baton Rouge". It doesn't make sense.

I cannot see why a German (even one engraving up fakes) would use this word as a name for the recipient of his presentation piece. However, Denny might have hit onto something, when he said that he had heard that pieces such as these were thought to have come out of the Western States - because a non-German speaker probably wouldn't realise the significance of the name and its application.

It makes me think of a gentleman I knew many years ago, called Roger Steele - of Hollywood Military Hobbies fame (or should I say "infamy"!) Roger knew lots of gun engravers.
Sadly, Roger is no longer around to answer back, so I will not pursue this line - but I am rather beginning to think that the erroneous use of "Kurpfalz" is beginning to throw doubt onto all the other similar pieces.

Hopefully Dave H will be able to get my other comment and photos up; and I will be keen to see what other GD members have to say, or show.

FJS

From Fred:

Here are the images I mentioned in my previous reply. I have had problems uploading them so am asking Dave Hohaus to do this on my behalf. The first one is the page from Johnson with the Ernst Kraft Dagger, and the second one is the Hermann Historica Otto Telschow piece.
By the way, if anyone wants to look at Deutscher's piece, key in "Kurt Knoblauch" in the "Fined" button, and it will take you right there.
FJS

second

FIRST OF ALL I WOULD LIKE TO THANK EVERYBODY FOR THEIR HELP ON MY FIRST DAGGER,ESPECIALY DEGENS FOR POSTING PHOTOS.I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE SOME NOVICE OBSERVATIONS HERE.FIRST ONE IS,ON TOTENKOPFRINGS THERE IS NEVER A FIRST INITAL ON THE PRESENTATION.AS YOU CAN SEE THERE ISNT ONE ON MINE,BUT IS ON DENNYS.SECOND,THE ENGRAVING ON MINE IS EXCELLENT ON BOTH SIDES OF THE GROSSGUARDS,BUT ON DENNYS ITS ONLY ON ONE SIDE.THE BACKSIDE IS OF A DIFFERENT PATTERN WITH NO ATTRACTIVE ENGRAVING AT ALL.THIRD,THE TOP NUT IS ENGRAVED ON DENNYS BUT NOT ON MINE.WITH ALL THESE DIFFERENT VARIATIONS WE SEE ITS OBVIOUS THEY WERENT TRYING TO COPY EACH OTHER.WITH HUNDREDS OF DAGGER MAKERS, WHY WOULD THERE BE ONLY ONE ENGRAVER?THE DEALER WHO I PURCHASED THIS DAGGER FROM TOLD ME TODAY THATHE HAS HAD IT IN HIS SAFE FOR 15 YEARS.HE PURCHASED IT FROM A VET.WHO BROUGH IT BACK FROM BELGIUM IN WW2.HE ALSO SAID I CAN BRING IT BACK FOR A FULL REFUND.THE PRICE I PAID, LETS SAY I COULD BUY A NICE SS FOR THE SAME MONEY,WICH IS NEXT ON MY LIST.

Only one advice, return it and get yourself a nice SS dagger.
Also if you can, stick with "textbook" examples, you will never have to argue with anyone and you won't have to always prove that it was a "rare variable".

Joe, that is good advice from Pat! Also, you won't always have that little "voice of doubt" whispering in you ear all the time! Regards, teufel

Joe
The "gentleman" I bought my SA from told me that that SA had been brought back by an American doctor in US Army at the end of the war. The story, I didn't buy from the start as it sounded all too familiar, but the engraving on the dagger had me bound up with hope.

As Fred Stephens mentioned, ALL the engraving has always struck me as having been done by a very good engraver and possibly one that has done extensive work on gun engraving. I have always been interested in guns and have seen quite a few engraved models. The names have always been unknown to me, but....

This reminds me a whole lot of that type engraving. I mentioned that mine came from the Western US. Sure think there's a connection there someplace.....

Looks like this engraving has fooled people before us and will continue to fool people after we're gone? Similiar to the problem we see when someone reproduces a ROHM or HIMMLER blade and sells it with the admonition that it is what it is.....

Somewhere down the road, that may be conveniently forgotten and someone sell the item for big bucks, as original. A real shame for the hobby and people trying to enjoy the real collectibles.
Denny

RUN, don't walk, and take it back.......

Joe Linge,

If the dealer who sold you the dagger has promised a full refund - then I am sure that he is honourable, and that he genuinely believes in the piece, and that you will get your money back.

As you say - he bought the piece from a Vet and has had it in his safe for the last 15 years. Well 15 years is not so long ago, that only takes us back to 1990. The image in the Johnson book (the Ernst Kraft named dagger) was published in 1975 so that's 30 years ago. There are some other tampered pieces that appear in the Raidl and Leslie booklet on German Daggers and Bayonets - and that came out in 1959, almost 50 years ago!

The saddening truth is that people (looking for a fast buck) have been screwing around with these pieces since the end of World War Two - and some of these tampered items have become secured in mainstream collecting culture.

The other pieces referred to in this correspondence, similar to yours, were only questionable because of their unusual and striking appearance. The observer of the item is left wondering......�Is this engraving from the period of the item, or from a later date?� It is one of those situations where either possibility can be true, and confidence in the piece (or lack of it) is left to the gut feeling of the new owner.

The �recipient names� on these items seem to be real names; and cleverly the creator of the engravings is picking obscure names - no �Sepp Dietrich�, or �Otto Meissner�, or �Julius Schaub� on these pieces (individuals whose existence can be quickly and easily established). In this case the creator chooses the names of lesser individuals, middle ranking personalities, whose name might be recorded as some bystander to another greater event or personality.

So it is the very obscurity of the actual name which makes the piece convincing - and then when that same name is independently found elsewhere (in some old book, or reference work etc.) then the illusion of realism becomes complete. So do not feel too bad that some of us are telling you that �you have been had" with a tampered item, because it is a very well executed piece of mischief. There is many a sound, honest, and knowledgeable collector who would have given that item the �benefit of the doubt�.

In fact I can tell you, truthfully, that although I have previously wondered about this design of engraving I was never able to make up my mind as to whether or not I believed it to be right or wrong. In fact it wasn�t until I saw the word �Kurpfalz� on your item that I finally made my decision. The improbability of that name has tilted my view against the piece - and other pieces with similar decoration. I hope that yourself, and the seller, can resolve the matter amicably.

FJS

Last word of advice Joe - it has been said over and over here on this forum .....

Buy the dagger - not the story.

It is great to have a dagger that you know the providance of, but if you have to use the story to help (in your mind) convince you that the dagger is good, well that is not good at all. Get your money back and buy something else.

JUST TO LET EVERYBODY KNOW, I SHIPPED THE DAGGER TO TOM WITTMANN YESTERDAY.IF I GET A C.O.A. ON IT ILL KEEP IT. IF NOT ILL RETURN IT FOR MY MONEY BACK.ILL KEEP YOU POSTED AND MANY THANKS FOR ALL CONCERNED. JOE

I think that is an appropiate move Joe. Charlie

Hello ,

here is my dagger .I picked up this dagger directly from a man in an old house in Th�ringen , near the little town Meiningen .A little time afer the union of Westgermany and Eastgermany .The crossguards was very dark .This dagger is 1000% authentic .The price was .Thomas Johnson has seen this dagger three years ago in Stuttgart and would buy them .