UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons HJ Edged Weapons Forum Etched damast HJ - WKC

This 'interesting' piece has just popped up on militaria321.

http://www.militaria321.com/auktionsdetails.cfm?auctionID=5333962

I havent seen a damast piece before (outside of Russ's) and there appears no evidence of tampering with the grip. I amusing the piece is either a really good fake (in the sense of being put together) but it poses a question are HJ's in etched or real Damascus a possiblity?

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I would say it is bogus.Ask yourself why is the dagger hilt,scabbard ,ect all beat up but the blade is mint?

Looks like etched "artificial" damascus (especially on photo # 3).

I agree that its no good, but did/could damascus or artificial HJ's (not leader's) exist?

It is that "rose damascus"which is doing the rounds in the UK as well at the moment.I saw an Austrian guy hawking an SA with the same type blade at a show recently.As already mentioned the state of the handle is a giveaway.
Ivan.

Sturm,

I guess the question is why ? If the HJ dagger was for the average boy, why would it exist ?
It would be cost prohibitive to own and would it even be permitted as it is not keeping in step with the Nazi uniformity theme...

I know of one real Damascus HJ knife so they did exist. Although carried by smaller boys, you see some fairly mature looking young men inthe old pictures wearing them.

Dave

Dave,

Again why ? Is it for presentation ?
I am not saying they don't exist,
what was the purpose ?

Who knows ?

It could have been rich parents. You see Army, Luft, and Navy daggers with Damascus steel blades without any dedication on the blade or elsewhere, so why not HJ ?

Perhaps it was a prize for one of the many athletic contests.

Dave

And, they were not all little boys either

Another.

By the way, I am not implying that I think the one above is real or fake. Not my area of expertise.

Dave

The �story� is almost as creative as some others I�ve seen in recent times. But the more believable evidence I think is in the blade itself.

Beside some of the other factors mentioned: Is that laser etching or an overlay running from left to right as part of the �inscription�? Multiple tracks from top to bottom - parallel to the red line??? FP

Inverted.

I have seen (real damascus) post war blades (large rose pattern). Say my second at a show not long ago....

(say) should be saw!!

The Dagger above is for sure a etched only pattern..

I agree Dave they werent all just for boys and when you consider that extra costs options were avliable on other daggers i dont think its out of the real of impossiblity for a HJ to have received one.
FP i also had a look at those lines and think they very well may be laser considering the crispness of the etch (to other repo's that is). RussN if memory serves me you have a Damascus HJ any chance of pics at all or entry into the legitimacy of Damascus blades on HJ's?

Interesting to find this post.

I have had the opportunity to inspect this HJ knife (the exact one posted here) last weekend.

My knowledge of damast blades is limited, but I can conclude this:
- This is a real damast blade, not an artificial one.
- Motto and makersmark are not etched into the blade but are raised out. They are crisp (not like the picture above of the makersmark shows)
- The blade is not mint, it is darker close to the guard and it shows runner marks. The lines indicated by Fred are the traces left by the runner.

Concerning the rest of the HJ-knife (that area I do know wel ): it is a classic early HJ with smaller diamond, steel based hilt, correct grip rivets...etc. No indications that the blade has been replaced.
Except for the surface rust on the hilt and scabbard, the overall condition was excellent. I have seen knifes in much worst external condition that held an mint blade, because it had been protected agains humidity in the scabbard during decades.

So this knife is quite intersting in my opinion... again I am not a damast specialist!

I will ask for some pictures of the blade and post them here if authorised.

Has anyone seen other real damast blades on HJ knifes during the past years?

Best greetings,

Herman

Hi Herman
Yes this is interesting post.
Bud anyway i dont see reason why?
Why to make damast blade for HJ.

Hello Stingray,

I think that Dave has answered that question pretty much: the leaders of this million members youth movement were no small boys.
Until 1938 they also could not distinguisch theirselves with a leader's dagger because this type of dagger did not exist yet. So it seems logical that they did that via a special ordering like a damast blade, the advantage was that it could not be seen on the outside uniform (there were strict relulations of equality).
Don't forget that among the leaders of the HJ movement there were many (rich) aristocrats. The supreme leader of the Hitler Youth, Baldur von Schirach, was a nobelman himself!

Best greetings,

Herman

hello for me this damast blade is a post war,i can say ,this is not the first hj that this man sell on mil 321,for in end a little price!!
i hve see one of this blade NO PROBLEM 100% FAKE,but always on a good dagger!
best regards from france
patrick

Patrick.

Would be interesting if you can post any lincks or pictures of other damast HJ-knifes that are (or have been) sold or which are in collections.
I have searched the net desperately looking for other ones without any result...

The only damast HJ's that I have found so far are the Dan Krebs knife, posted here 3 years ago and this WKC one, posted 1,5 years ago... That is not much and that is why they start to interest me...

"for in the end a little price...", how much is that?
The knife that is posted here (and that I have been inspecting in hand) would be quite costly to reproduce, I can assure you!

Best greetings,

Herman

I have seen these daggers before on a dealer website, and at the Max show.... All were postwar. When I personally looked at the krebs at the max it was confirmed... Sorry Herman These are postwar blades..
One question... How do you know it is damascus???? As the Imperial Navy was bad so is this HJ blade..Don't buy a story... Just my opinion...

Hey Damast,

I'll tell you why I believe this is real damast if you tell me more about your findings (the facts) about the Dan Krebs HJ at the MAX. OK?

I also want to ask all the other posters here to post and present facts, arguments and pictures. So that we can have a mature discussion, that is what a forum like this is all about: learn from each other!

Just posting opinions: "it is bad" or "it is good" is of very limited use and value for others...

Let me quickly tell you a story:

Not so long ago at a show in Europe, an unusual SA was offered for sale, nobody liked it, not even the peopole who were collecting for decades "it was bad: the grip was not correct", "it was no good: look at that eagle",...etc. I got pictures and information from the right people here on the forum and now I own an ultra rare christmas SA...

I could tell you more: how I bought mint HJ's because others thought they were fakes "looking too good, so new"...

So, try to keep an open mind here and post your facts, arguments, definitions...

If they are proven wrong? Who cares... as long as we are learning something!

Best greetings,

Herman

PS: same with the Imperial Navy, it was thanks to people here on the forum who presented me facts and arguments, that I realised that it was a reproduction, not by the "it is no good" opinions.

1st off I was the one who blew the whistle on the very bad Imperial navy fake....As far as the HJ dagger I'am having a mature discussion on it. As far as pictures.... One Krebs is in the Big dealers Gallery under damascus... It is (my opinion) that this is also postwar. (don't buy the story) I do not mean to have you get upset, I hope someone else will put in there 2 cents..

No offence taken here, Damast.

Just hoping to get more valuable content on the subject.

Best greetings,

Herman

hello herman
i cannot do a good discussion because my english is bad!but i can say the same dealer sell 1or 2 same hj damast with WKC for a little sum 600� ,i sell also other daggers with this same damast and the price are not big,for me this is very doubtful !i have never see in 30 years an hj with an original damast blade �and you my friends collector??
BEST REGARDS
patrick

I have compared the damast HJ knife currently for sale (thank you for the lead, Damast!) with the one posted here 3 years ago. It is the exact same piece!

So that still leaves me with only 2 damast HJ pieces found: 1 WKC and 1 Dan Krebs...

I am looking for more. Who else has pictures to show or knows where one is offered for sale?

Best greetings,

Herman

Here's one that I have just found.

Thanks for posting here, Pat!

Yes, that is the same Krebs we know about.

Best greetings,

Herman

I had this HJ Damascus in my hands at the Max show about 3 years ago but I cannot really say anything about it, as I have no expertise on these.
It sure seems like real damascus to me but the question is, is it period or not ?
That same year at the Max, Reddick Enterprises were selling fabulous Luft and Army unmarked real damascus blades for only $ 100 USD.
These were made in Asia and when I wanted to buy one, the seller told me that they were all sold out..............to dealers.

What about the damast blade, Pat?

You own several 3R damascus blades, so you can compare.

Best greetings,

Herman

Herman,

All that I can tell you, is that none of my damascus blades have any similarities with the one posted here.
The damascus blades that I have were all made by Paul Dinger and I have the large and small rosebud patterns.
There were of course more than 1 Damascus craftman in Germany ( I think they were 5 or 6 ) and it could have been made by any of the other guys.............if done period.

That's really a hard call and it doesn't help either that we cannot find any period reference on the subject.

Pat:
You are very much aware of some of the period 3 Reich damascus Daggers swords I own and have owned. + the many Imperial damascus swords.I do not post pictures of them on the forum. I saw personally the krebs at the (last) MAX. I know that that blade was postwar in my opinion.. Paul Dinger, Carl(Karl) Wester , Paul Mueller , Were the most common. I have seen only a few (real) marked sword blades by Robert Deus..(Spelling??). (In the Solingen blade museum storage..)
A good book for a collector to buy is Damascus Steel By Manfred Sachse... It is always on e-bay... It does have a small section on fake damascus.. Regards: James

James,

I can only dream to be invited for dinner to your house and see your wonderful collection with my own eyes.

I'll bring the wine but it will have to be Bordeaux.

Sure does not look like TJ Swan..Or Boonesfarm.

I have been permitted to post some pictures of this knife.

Here they are, I hope that the damast specialist here can learn us something... Argumented opinions are much appreciated!

Still only 2 damascus HJ's found so far... Where are the others?

Best greetings,

Herman