UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum SS Dagger Gottlieb Hammesfahr Solingen-Foche

Hello,
I need your outstanding help. I like to buy this dagger - see pics. For me it looks fine, but maybe I'm wrong. What are your opinions ?

Well to me it is a very nice looking dagger. I see no problems with it at all

Regards;

Sepp
GDC 0292 Gold

Looks OK to me.

Dave

Nice looking piece..is there a distributor mark (I,II or III)on the reverse lower Xguard?

Quiz: Accepted early SS grip eagles come in three categories.
1. High neck
2. Point behind the head.
3. Upward pointing beak
Which one is this?

Compare a closeup of a Hammesfahr logo with this example. Look at the the oval "circles" and of the "cross" in the Pyramid. On period example that are acid etched you will see something. What is it?

And the grip stamps...they could have done better than that!

IMO, Yes, nice current example from the Czech Republic. I do admire how they match those new grips to the crossguards...should however put a few dents or depression marks in them.

-serge-

Thank you very much for great help !

quote:

distributor mark

no there isn't any, at least not on the photos

Here are two new phots to compare about serge's doubts.
about the high neck and upward pointing beak ..

and about the logo .. please take a look

If you should be a copy it's truly a high one !
But I don't think so .. however the only point that serge statet is the acid etched marker

Hello fliegerass,
I first want to thank you for providing "good" clear photos and better than my computer skills.
This way we can see what we are taking about. I may ask you for additional side-by-side views.

On the eagle "proofed" example you show what is an "upward-beak" original. Being that the beak of the eagle goes upward on an angle from the eagles neck.
The "mystery" eagle does not do that. It is neither a "High-neck" or "Point-behind-the-head" variety either. So I ask if it is not one of these 3 known variation, what is it?

On the Makers logo you can tell the fakes when compared to originals quite easily. If you don't mind take the two different logos and place them side-by-side so our colleagues can see more clearly.
On originals we know used an "acid-etched" solution to for their Mottos and Logos. Those are evident by the "inperfections" due to varios different metals and carbons in the composition of the blade. So "authentic" examples will exibit rough "Ovals" and you will not get perfect 90% angels as seen in the "cross" edges within the pyramid.
However with modern "Lazer" Etching has taken care of the problems of inconsistent "acid-etching" techniques. Hence you have perfectly smooth Ovals, letters and crosses as is clearly evident on this Lazer etched example.

There are other more minor details...but I'm keeping those as they say.."close-to-the-vest".

Yes, they tried too hard, and made them better than the originals.

Of course, this is all JUST MY OPINION.
and this could be a rare "experimental-test-production-prototype".

-serge-

Wow, I'm with Serge on this one. The grip is too perfect to be 60+ years old. The color is too flat, and the high ridges of the grip reveal the brown wood beneath...looks like the "unissued" grips with the tags at all the shows of late. Plus, over 60 years, the crossguard tend to make an imprint into the edges of the grip, which is why they often flake. The edges of this grip are a new as the day they were made, which is probably yesterday.

John

These are the best fakes out there. We in the U.S. don't see many of them here. However they are "cleaning-up" on the European and Russian markets through auction sites like "Militaria 3-2-1" and other established European dealers.

-serge-

I agree with Serge too.

The rune was the first thing that caught my eye, then the grip and the rest has already been mentioned.

This is scary for new collectors.

Excellent appraisal Serge... These copies are getting better all the time, but luckily there are a few faults to spot. The earlier trademarks the fakers used were so obviously wrong, they appear to be doing a better trace of the originals.

I suspect there are more of these in the market and collections than we would like to believe, bare in mind the CZ fakers also sell just blades, so when they are hilted with a period dagger, they get even tougher to spot.

Red

Very Nice Yes !

Sebastien.

There may be issues with this piece, but I would not be too quick to dismiss the grip eagle as fake. I've seen plenty of subtle casting variations of both the upward pointing beak and the point behind the head eagles. With wear and an odd camera angle it can look quite different.

I've examined these Czech SS grip eagles up close. They look close between a "point-behind-the-head" and an "upward-beak" versions. However they are neither. And they are found only on the current production of fake Czech SS grips.

-serge-

Point-behind-the-head.



Upward-beak.



Long-neck.



Images taken from Tom Wittmann's SS book.

For an interesting side-by-side comparison of eagle variations go to this website and click on the eagle photo to enlarge it.

http://www.dienstdolch.de/sa-dienstdolch-einfuehrung.html?Itemid=31

Look not only at the head but also the breast feathers and the size of the swaz. Not saying that the eagle shown above is good or bad, just that there are more variations that exist besides what is shown in Wittmann's book.

Hello,
I have this dagger for to make an Expertise. The Grip is a copy from completely light black colored wood ( weight 22,57 Gramm ). The Gripeagle and the SS Pastille are Copies ) I have look into the Grip with a Endoscope . The complett dagger weight 397,36 Gramm an is 367,8 mm long.Inside the scabbard are metal chips. The sheath interior volumes are copies.( look at the pictures ). sheet metal is 0,1mm thinly (normaly it is : 0,4mm).

The blade does not want to please me to.

Gru� Ralf

Picture1

picture2

picture3

Picture4

Picture5

Picture6

Picture7

Picture8

Picture9

Picture10

Photo 6.
Clear example of Lazer etch. -Sorry.

-serge-

I'm afraid that the quality of these fakes are going to ruin the hobby. Unless you know the history of a particular dagger you can't purchase it at today's stratopheric prices.

As my Grandma would say � �I am cruising for a bruising � but here goes�. Considering that David Hohaus said, �Looks OK to me� on March 5th � then many more people provide evidence against this piece, does he still hold the same opinion? I know that David is not responsible for someone buying a dagger or not buying a dagger, but it would seem that some sort of acknowledgement or disagreement of the facts is in order � considering he is one of the moderators of the SS dagger forum. Do you agree with the findings David?

Dave say good,Mikatim bad.Where is true?I think not here but only in my feeling.

Dave now say Bad

Didn't look close enough the first time.

Also, that was before I had seen this dagger:
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/728099473/m/4590041745

I think some of the materials for the Hammesfahr may be the same as the one I looked at

Dave

Wow, scary scary, what hope for chumps like me.
I will spot any duff luft or heer from a mile away, but SS I would be absolutely lost and with the prices they are fetching stuff like this really puts one off entering the arena, however I would 'never ' buy from a less than 100% accredited scource. To be truthful I would rather pay a little more and buy from a dealer who is giving a guarantee and is accepted among the collecting community as 100% honest, than try to cut corners and buy cheaper dodgy stuff from an unknown quantity.
IMO 1 genuine piece is worth more than any number of repro's, no matter how good a copy they might be.

Nolan

Hello,
It is today very heavy nearly not possibly only with pictures to see is an SS dagger o.k. or not o.k.
You must have the dagger in your hands or even divide.
You must weight the dagger and you must look into the Grip, you must look into the scabbard.

The copies are better and better.
That is very sad.

Gru� Ralf

100% not an SS Maybe SOME parts from SA dagger, but:
1. FAKE SS insert ,well known btw., I've seen it many times before on the fakes coming from...(surpise, surprise) Czech.
2. Logo etch so different in appearance and several details than originals.
3. Those pathetic "markings" on the tang an the grip
Newbies buy them, but they will not ruin my budget.
It's bad for "the hobby", no doubts, but the existence of fakes have always been part of the game (fakes made also in USA or Germany, don't forget that little fact). Arm yourselves with knowledge and use your eyes.