UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories German Military Uniform Forum Division Windhund

Can someone me tell more about this aluminium badge. Was it worn with the wholes just horizontal opposite or more slant? Is it rare ? What is the value?
Any info is welcome.
Cheers,
Benten

backside..........

This is the badge of the 116th Panzer Division, which was formed in February 1944, in Westphalia using troops from the badly mauled 16th Panzergrenadier Division (ex Southern Russia) and the second line 179th Reserve Panzer Division which had been in occupation forces, France.

This division was thrown against Allied invasion forces in France, and played a significant role in the Battle of the Bulge.

Because it fought against US and British forces, a higher percentage of its items were souvenired, than Russian Front units.

That does not mean Windhund (Greyhound) Division items are common. The item you display was commonly worn on M43 caps and officers Schirms. It was originally supplied with twin prongs attached to the back of the badge, but drilling holes on either end was not unknown. I have an M43 with the badge attached in such a fashion, and another with twin prongs in use.

I will attach photos shortly.

David!

On Officer's Private Purchase M43

Same badge, from a distance showing whole cap.

Standard OR's with holes drilled

And the whole cap. Note it has discrete cap and roundel, instead of the more usual triangular single piece insignia.

I am somewhat concerned about the quality of your example. Instead of the clear cut edges on the badge elements of my examples, yours has very soft edges.

Do you have solid provenance? I suppose it could be a late war example, but I don't know. I have seen many replicas of this badge, but they often aren't even the right size!

Is this enough info, or do you need more? Don't ask me about value. One of the dealers might be able to give you an indication of that.

David!

I do not like the badge posted by Benton at all.
I would pass.
Steve

David, thank you for so many nice pictures, I couldn't be informed better.

I agree with you David and Steve, my badge has reasons to be concerned. It is low-quality ; the oval rim is on the right very thin.The dog is smaller than on most badges where the dog nearly touches the rim.
The oval size is 2,1cm x 2,9cm and 2mm thickness.

Cheers,
Benten

Dave, wow! fantastic caps. A Pz Officers M43 has got to be one of the rarest caps to find and a pp example with grommets to boot!! What's the history behind these two and any chance of some interior shots? Sorry to hijack the thread but these are beautiful!!

The OR's cap was souvenired by a US soldier during the Battle of the Bulge. I got it straight from the family. When I got it, it was lacking the cloth insignia, but had clear shadows where they had been. The cap never had the usual triangular insignia. The Windhund was still attached, and if you carefully look at the back of it, you can see where the prongs are broken off.

The officer's PP example also came from the US, but I do not have clear provenance. I bought it from a collector with a good reputation (no names) and I believe it to be genuine. It is made by Reitz, whose work I have seen on a lot of Tropical Headgear. The grommet is typical of his work.

I will post one picture of the interior I have, but can offer little else at the moment. It is on display with the bulk of my collection, in a local museum. I like my collection being on display, rather than gathering dust in a room in my house.

David!

Interior of Officer's M43. Reitz's mark is somewhat indistinct. Was he based in Munich? I think so, but am not sure (M�nchen).

David!

Interior of OR's. Sorry about the poor quality.

Thank you for the extra pictures.
Cheers,
Benten

Hello, could I please ask about the Panzer officers 116 cap shown in this thread. I am puzzled by the following points and surprised there has not been more discussion.

1/ Panzer officers M43 caps are very very rare. In fact many advanced collectors of many years experience are yet to see one they trust.

2/ REITZ is a manufacturer from Belgium ? Items by this maker are very desirable and sought after in their own right. Did they have a branch of their factory in Munich ? Does not make sense to me

3/ The grommets are interesting. I have seen such grommets or simular in officers M38 sidecaps and SA coffee-can caps. I have also seen such grommets in West German army caps from the 1950's & 60's Are these grommets period ie pre-May 45 ?

4/ Many collectors say that you can not have grommets in a real M43 cap. There are however period photos of M43's with grommets but they say these are M42's converted to M43's by the addition of a visor. Is it correct that true M43's do not have grommets ? Are officers M43's an exception to this rule ?

5/ This officers M43 seems to have a round top and not the tear-drop shape which collectors like. Again is this ok for an officers M43 ?

Sorry to be asking so many questions but M43 have become a hard science and there seem to be alot of very good reproductions on the market.

Any help or advise would much appreciated, Chris

Chris,

Many good and valid questions.

I don't know much about where Reitz sold/made their caps. My Munich comment is based on my interpretation of an obscured marking. I could have read it totally incorrectly.

Whilst I agree entirely about factory made M43's, which were issued to other ranks, Officer's M43's are a different story. Most are tailor made, and not to the standard specifications. Whilst the outside major details conform (like size of peak and general configuration), tailors would often introduce individual features, as selling points (Like EREL brand peaked caps and their ventilated c*ckade options). Interiors often vary markedly, with items like leather partial sweatbands (like bergmutzen), upmarket linings, etc.

From what I can learn, the use of grommets actually stemmed from the DAK field caps. Reitz was one of the manufacturers of those, in quantity. Thus, as the concept of ventilation was a valid one, it became an option for their tailor made M43's.

As I said in my original post, I do not have clear provenance on the officer's cap. The grommets are consistent with other known wartime examples I have, and the top shape is more teardrop than it appears in the photo. I am happy with the piece.

M43's are a difficult science with them being among the most widely faked items, for a very long period of time.

It is highly unlikely this is a converted M42, as I have yet to see a genuine black one, especially an officers! If they still exist, they must be as rare as rocking horse sh*t (excuse my french).

I don't buy M43's any more, unless the provenance is solid. Good thing I already have quite a few examples.

David!