UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum SS Honor dagger

Some of it not all of it.You have a vested interest in the dagger You cannot be objective.Why must you alway resort to insulting members who do not see things your way?Not only this thread but many others.

You finally screwed up Zorro. I have never had a vested interest in this dagger. I never owned it, sold it, and never had any interest financially in it when it was bought or sold. Did I cover everything? You must have gotten that information from the same book you own on Honor Daggers. It took a while for you to finally show your real face. I think it's time for Mr. Zorro to ride his horse underneath the waterfall and into the Zorro Cave.

Gailen

In fact I was asked by an outside party if I would authenticate the dagger and said no. The reason is that I am a friend of the seller and felt it was not ethical for to do so.

Gailen David

Hello! Zorro you there?

Gailen David

Gailen did you get the paypal yet?

Roy: Sure did. Thank you.

Gailen David

John and Jonathan- sweet daggers.

One that a member sent me photos of.

Very similar to mine, JR (photos posted above).

What a difference a day makes.

Silence is golden.

BTW:
In case anyone hasn't figured it out the plain bladed dagger that is pictured above by JR* is a fake. I put it together in about 10 minutes using a legit. blade but the rest of the parts are from a high end Honor dagger copy I own.
I did this to illustrate a point in just how easy it is to fake something. Threads get contentious at times but IMO it is proper and necessary to question any item in this hobby.
I posted pics. of a cased medal in another thread that I had some qualms about. Two members told me what they thought was wrong with it and it's going back. The problem was so minor I probably would never have caught it myself.
Jim
*I asked JR to post this because if I had done so many would have recognized the Honor Dagger copy as mine.

I hear that JR had turned down offers on that dagger in the $25,000 to $38,000 !
-wagner-

Hi everyone. Just a few comments on this thread. First, JOHNZ, You spent a lot of money on this dagger and so I hope you take great pleasure in it. As stated already on this thread there are those who would not take this blade because it has a ground rohm blade on an honor dagger. I don't know that it would be any different if it was an original non rohm plain blade either. Everyone should take note that the full honor daggers happen to have the CHEAPEST damascus blade that could possibly be had in the third reich. No. 880 plain maiden hair that sold for 6.00 RM. So truthfully the blade on these daggers is not so special really. The small rose pattern would have cost 27.00 RM and the four band turkish damast cost 90.00 RM!!! So Himmler was only just so honorable with his honor daggers. That is why ,I guess the birthday four band damast swords are so prized because of the workmanship in the blade but most importantly THEY ARE ATTRIBUTED TO A FAMOUS OR INFAMOUS PERSON. In the end most all of these honor dagger blades are unattributed and always will be unfortunately. So maybe JOHNZ didn't do to badely with his dagger. The only question will always come up at the time of sale not of purchase. Hopefully it will hold value or go up, there is a general rule that when someone can spend 40 to 60 thousand on something they often can spend 100,000 and therefore will choose a full bladed honor dagger if they wnat one at all. You never know where that break point is and I hope that JOHNZ is under that point as,I think Gailen believes, he is. Time will tell. David

quote:

Originally posted by violin: Everyone should take note that the full honor daggers happen to have the CHEAPEST damascus blade that could possibly be had in the third reich. No. 880 plain maiden hair that sold for 6.00 RM. So truthfully the blade on these daggers is not so special really. David

That's something that I didn't know about.
I always thought that the SS Honour Damascus blades ( and the SA Honour blades for that matter ) were the most expensive damascus available at the time.
Didn't know that they were the cheapest of all damascus.
In any case, the value and desirability mainly holds in its rarity and great looks.

Hi Pat. The numbers I posted were for army daggers in the 1939 Eickhorn Kundenienst as originally posted by Tony in June 03 on this forum. One can extrapolate to any dagger type I would assume as to relative cost from one type of damascus technique to the other. Maidenhair was therefore the most common type seen because it was the cheapest. Tony originally stated that 20 RM would, in that day, cover the average family living expenses for a week. So you can see why four band damast was very rare and is prized today. That is why I have always had a hard time wanting to pay 100,000 for a "plain' blade so to speak. Don't get me wrong I would love to have one just like everyone else would but I am just waiting for mine at the next gun show.

I looked for the price of a Damascus blade in the 1938 Eickhorn catalog, but was unable to find it. 6.00 Reichsmarks just doesn't seem right to me for the price of a one of these blades. Even an ivory grip for an Army dagger was more than this, and considering that to make a true Damascus blade took up to 40 hours to accomplish, how could it sell so cheaply ? I certainly would like to hear some other discussion on this particular topic.

Page 251 of Wittmann's Army book gives pricing from the 1939 circa Eickhorn Kundendienst. True Damascus Steel Blade No.880 Plain Maidenhair is shown as 6.00 RM, and range through to 90.00 RM for No.425 Turkish pattern through and through.

Regards

Russell

There is 10X the amount of material in an SA/SS blade then the toothpick Army blade.

Some of the posts on this thread makes me wonder if I joined this forum to learn more about my favorite hobby or read mean.. posts. The last time checked no one man or woman knows everything. Sometimes the only way to learn is to ask questions. After many years of collecting, I do not know everything and am always willing to learn. Just a new(no nothing) members opinion.

Yep! I'd like a mansion for a price of a shack.
-wags-

Congrats to JohnZ and Jonathan - a priviledge to see such fine daggers!!

Regards

Russell

I certainly hope no one thought my posts were mean but the exact opposite. I was trying to suggest that JOHNZ should feel good about his dagger because I think there is WAY to much stock placed in maidenhair blades. Of course there are nice and great to have and I for one would love to have one but from Pat's comments there may be a misconception about damast blades and what was top and what was less. By the way JR your point is well taken and it may very well be that a political blade may be more expensive because of more work and/or more material. BUT, it should be relative as I said in my first post as to maidenhair vs. Four band with the four band being just that much more expensive in a political dagger. Those honor dagger cross guards are vastly more rare than maiden hair pattern blades throughout the third reich. David

By the way I use to own a small roses navy damascus dagger that was so beautiful you could look at it for ever. There are very few of them from the third reich period and it was maid by Paul Dinger. There was no comparing maiden hair to that blade!!! I honestly have no idea how one could forge it. So the price difference is very likely correct as well as the degree of difficulty in making one. David

Ok, Ok, made not maid. I need to proof read my posts better.

Here is a closeup of a set of medium quality damascus steel shotgun barrels circa 1910. These would have been used on a double barrel shotgun in the $30 range*. Shot gun barrels are infinitely more difficult and time consuming to create that a dagger blade. There are four pieces to each set. the left and right barrels plus the top and bottom rib's. The basic process was to take bundles of alternating steel and iron strips that were twisted together and then hammer welded around a mandrel. The mandrel was then bored out leaving a tube. The tubes then had to be trued up, regulated so both barrels would shoot to the same point; usually 40 yards, then soldered together with the top and bottom ribs. Finally they had to be polished and finished.
*Keep in mind this would have been the retail cost of the whole gun and not just the barrels.
Jim

The art of making true Damascus went up in smoke with the Library of Alexandria.

Very interesting reading Violin, thanks.

I agree with Jim M that everything is and should be open to scrutiny - but not ridicule. Let's keep in mind, also, a thousand photos are not worth one "hands on" examination. Most photos do not come close to telling the true story and that can be in the "plus" or "minus" column. Honest and objective disagreement is healthy, but an attitude of "I'm right and everybody else is wrong" without proof or foundation is unhealthy. Arguing for argument's sake alone proves nothing and contributes nothing. There are people in this hobby who know more about it than I ever will. Their opinions should carry much weight and credibility. Even they, however, can and do make mistakes, but that is seldom the case. As has been said many times before, each item must stand on its own. Does it generally conform to the norm? If not, what are the differences and is there a reasonable explanation as to why they exist? You can accept or reject the "non-textbook" examples of anything. You may be saving yourself a lot of grief by rejecting them or obtaining a rare "jewel" in obtaining something that doesn't quite conform to the norm. There are fake honor daggers with both types of blades and there are real ones with both types of blades. As stated above, each example must stand on its own.

As Grumpy stated above no one should take umbrage IMO if an item they post is questioned.
After 50+ years of fakery in this hobby an item has to be judged by its own merits and the best criteria and information we have today and certain items will still remain "questionable" in many minds. I have asked this before and to paraphrase a song "Where have all the Atwoods Gone?" I think its a fair question. Surely post war daggers reputedly produced in the thousands didn't just vanish into thin air. I suspect that with 40 years of natural aging they are lying in collection perhaps undetected today. I know for a fact that one notable collector got a suprise awhile back when showing his collection to a real veteran dealer. Apparentely 2 of the SS dagggers in his collection were Atwoods.
Going back to my assembled dagger above. It would take only a short while to finish up the fitting professionally on this dagger to make it essentially undectible to the vast majority of the collecting community. Most of the parts except the blade appear to be period left over stock. I am sure this would present a real opportunity to sell this as legit. by someone with a lack of ethics.
Even though my name is Jim I'll remain a "Doubting Thomas" as long as I collect.
Jim

Jim makes good sense. When JR posted the photo of his "put together" dagger, I gave it a quick glance without taking note of the details. I assumed it was real since JR posted it and it fell in line with the topic of discussion. After Jim disclosed what the dagger is, I scrutinized it and could see the areas that flag it as a partly reproduction piece. It is convincing at first glance and would fool many a buyer who is not familiar with honor daggers. As most of us know, there are relatively inexperienced collectors with lots of money who may well jump at a chance to buy an "honor dagger," especially if the price is attractive. Backed up by a seller with a smooth spiel and a "guarantee of authenticity," the buyer would be easy prey. The same could apply to any dagger, even the more common ones. But the big bucks for the unscrupulous are in the rarer varieties. Although bargains may be found at shows, on the internet, etc., the risk of being "taken" is much greater than buying from a reputable dealer or collector. Knowledge is power, as they say, and, if you do not have sufficient knowledge, go to someone who does before laying down your money.

Absolutely fantastic daggers you guys are showing here!! I am envious in a positive way
Maybe one day a second mortgage may finance one of these beauties, with or without a damascus blade.

Thanks for sharing!!!

Cheers,

Just a little follow up on damascus blades and smiths. By the time of the third reich there were only three or four smiths still active in the forging of damascus blades. Original records are quite scarce on these facts. However at least three of them were Paul Muller, Carl Wester, and Paul Dinger. I cannot find my reference to the other one but someone else may know more than me. Everyone thinks that Paul Muller was a Solingen smith but in fact his smithy was in Cronenberg before Dachau. Other than the Japanese swords, these blades, regardless of the type of damascus forging are the most beautiful ever made in my novice and humble opinion. David

Hi there,

I am late arriving in this thread, having been deployed elsewhere dodging flak.

Skyline Drive, I have tried the web address that you show, but cannot see any image - perhaps the seller has pulled the images now that the piece has sold? Did any one download them for their own records, in which case can they be seen?

JohnZ, congratulations on your success at obtaining the dagger. Is it possible that you could take a selection of photographs of the piece (including details showing it in dismantled form)? I would really like to see, and know, more about this dagger.

Although there is probably no doubt that "Honour Daggers" such as these were presented to the recipient (and with some great ceremony, at local level). It is my opinion, however, that in the majority of cases the recipient was awarded only the "Right to bear the Honour Dagger" - and he would be given a certificate to prove that he had the authority to carry such an item. Actual possession of the item was something that he had to pay for, and in terms of the existing economy, such items would not be cheap - and the majority of people were not that wealthy.

I do not doubt that for some SA or SS men being granted this Honour, then their friends, associates of fellow members of their Sturm might subscribe together to purchase the dagger, and if there was enough money left over then they might well have contributed towards a damascus blade as well.

The actual purchase of the item could not be done direct with the factory. According to my Eickhorn Kundendienst (1938 edition) direct sale of the item to the individual was forbidden, and that applications for the dagger had to be made through the RZM.

The actual conditions which would merit the award of the right to carry the Ehrendolch remain a bit of a mystery - so if anyone has any information in this area, I would be pleased if they would care to share it with us.

Hope we see some photos!

FJS

Fred,

Tell us why you think that "in the majority of cases the recipient was awarded only the "Right to bear the Honour Dagger" - and he would be given a certificate to prove that he had the authority to carry such an item."

Dave

would that explain the use of a ground rohm blade in a honour dagger cost perhaps it was a cheaper option?

Ground Roehm Dagges left in Eickhorn stock were not termed "Ground Roehm Blades" and were put into the inventory as any other SS mottoed dagger blade. Sold as new old stock and even marked with the RZM code and dated (see Wittmann's and others reference books showing these-I told Wittmann about these very early on when no one else knew what these were and I have found more than one directly from the veteran's hand in motel buys).
So quit using this as an available option for someone getting an SS Dagger (these could NOT be purchased on an individual basis by SS men).
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Dave,

I will give you two parallel instances which I think support my belief.

Firstly; recipients of the Blood Order were given a special booklet (a bit like a Fuhrerschein) which they were supposed to carry, and which confirmed that they were the acknowledged recipient of the award that they displayed. Therefore, at any time, they could be required to prove entitlement to the bearing of such an award.

Secondly; Authentic Luftwaffe Generalsdegens with the Goring inscription seem to exist only in examples manufactured by Eickhorn - and then only in the form of the later (post-1937) white grip and not the wire-wrapped grip.

The comparable WKC Luft Degen, remains in their catalogues shown with a plain (or partially etched) blade.

I respectfully submit that the right to bear the Goring dedication was a "bestowal in word and recognition" - and that if the recipient wanted to show this recognition on his sword, then he had to purchase one from Eickhorn (Pattern 1732, Price 39.50 Reichsmarks).

I hope that this offers some enlightenment to your question

Best regards

FJS

P.S. I would not be ungrateful to receive a reply the the private e-mails that I have sent to you.

There is a pic in Wittmann's book of an SS Rohm dagger and the certificate awarding the Ehrendolch to the SS man. Would this be the "right to bear" document?

First I need to say that there is a bit of a problem with terminology.

Erich - When Rohm gave away a bit more than an eighth of a million daggers with his name etched on the back he called them "Ehrendolch" and gave out, at least to SS recipients, a certificate of entitlement called an Urkunde (sp?). One of these rare documents is what is in TW's book. Today thse are mostly called Rohm daggers or Rohm Inscription or Rohm Dedication daggers

What the collecting hobby has come to call a real "Honor Dagger" is well defined as being made by Eickhorn and having crossguards of a consistent pattern, a leather covered scabbard, two unique types of scabbard fittings and a Damascus steel blade ...except one or two unexplained ones with plain blades. They are found both as "M1933" and chained daggers. Enough have are around today to prove that they were made in small quantities and were not one-off examples.

There exist many other presented daggers, some with Damascus blades or sculpted crossguards or leather covered scabbards. They are sometimes called "Honor Daggers". No two are identical.

Fred,

If you are talking about the Rohm daggers, I don't agree that all the bloke got was a certificate.

If you are talking about the Eickhorn Honor Daggers, what applied to Blood Orders or Luftwaffe GO swords is neither here nor there as far as whatthe SS or SA might have done. If you have proof, lets see it.

Dave