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#162424 05/17/2008 02:42 PM
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These are pretty rare daggers, and there appears to be a lot of decent copies on the market, which may be tough to detect if mated with a period Eickhorn Army blade, especially when looking only at pics.

I have read a few conflicting methods of detecting copies, but the most reliable seems to be the crossguard width and pommel measurement. I have seen measurements claimed all the way from 81 to 87mm. I'm aware that the copies tend to have a smaller crossguard width due to the shrinkage involved in reproducing these.

My question, has anyone else measured theirs (crossguard I mean Big Grin ). Here's mine to kick off:

Crossguard width: 83.7mm
Pommel width: 25mm
Type: Eickhorn with silvered steel scabbard.

Hopefully there's a few out there on GD Cool

Red

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Bahnschutz CGuard
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Here is mine. Maker is Eickhorn.
Crossguard width: 84 mm
Regards

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Hi,
My "black" uncleaned Eickhorn example:
Crossguard: 83.6mm
Pommel: 25mm

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Grip Assembly:

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Complete shot just to see the colour of the whole piece!

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Mine is magnetic scabbard, non-magnetic scabbard rings.

Crossguard is 83.6mm
Grip is 26.4 mm
Pommel is 24.8 mm

John


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Anybody else notice the difference in scabbard bands on Matrese and Maxwells daggers.Love that patina Maxwell

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My scabbard is the type with the throat cut straight in the top of the scabbard. The scabbard is aluminium base with a silver plating over the aluminium.

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Mine has scabbard bands that look like Maxwell's.

The scabbard is magnetic and the throat is also magnetic.

John


Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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I have the original Eickhorn printing plate (for their catalogs) for the railway dagger as well as the extremely rare railway water protection dagger.
Interestingly, the scabbard bands on Maxwell's dagger appear to be those depicted on the railway water protection dagger. The "smoother" curves of the scabbard rings on the first two daggers posted in this thread are those shown on the catalog picture as being the bands for the standard railway dagger.
Since these two dagger types were so similar, perhaps parts were mixed. In either case there is definately a difference and it is shown in the catalog pics.


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Here we go...
On the right we see the ultra rare railway water protection dagger. The scabbard bands on this dagger have noticeably more angular lines, are thinner, and are slightly wider (from left to right) than the fittings on the standard railway dagger (left).
Because these daggers appear side by side in a period catalog picture, I would have to conclude that the differences between them (in their construction) are intentional. If the scabbard bands were supposed to be the same, they would be pictured as being the same in the catalog. Because they are different, I would have to believe that Eickhorn made two slightly different types of scabbard bands for these two daggers.
I would suspect that due to their similarity, they were mixed-up in house and Maxwell's dagger was constructed with what were originally intended to be railway water protection scabbard bands (an easy mistake to make).
Very interesting...
Other opinions?
Please see pics:

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Close-up:

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Close up of my scabbard...

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Concerning the scabbard bands of original RRPP daggers:
The early EICKHORN with aluminium scabbard with the built-in-throat seems to have always the very bevelled variant.
On all other kind of scabbards and manufacturers and assumable manufacturing periods I could observe total mixtures (naturally always in pairs) of heavily bevelled, slightly bevelled and straight scabbard bands also varying slightly also in thickness of the oval rings and their space between.
The hard I tried, up to now I could not detect any rule for the use of them in regard of production time, kind of scabbard (steel/silvered, steel/aluminium coating, pure steel/brushed) or manufacturer.
Just my personal ovservation on a lot of these (period) daggers.
As the early RRPP daggers from EICKHORN all (?) have the very bevelled avriant I dare to doubt that these bands they were intended alone for the much more rare RRWWPP daggers (as in the image) but first way for the early RRPP dagger from EICKHORN as said and always observed on them.
The RRPP dagger with the straight looking scabbard bands (of the image) seems to be one of the already next generation.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Thanks for the measurements and observations... It's interesting to see that there is no casting flaw in the Eickhorn catalogue image, I wonder if it was a retouched image or photographed from a prototype or enhanced by a chiseleur.

So far the crossguard widths are consistent amongst our small sample of around 84mm, I wonder where 87mm came from as appears in the narrative in germandressdaggers.com? I would be very interested to know if anyone has a crossguard with that kind of dimension.

Mine also has the shallow bevelled type scabbard bands. Its interesting to see so many variations in a dagger that is so uncommon.

Red

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This is a pretty good copy reviewed by a fellow member in the Repro Forum. The crossguard measure on this one is 82.6mm, not far off an original.

This illustrates how easy it would be to get duped with one of these on eBay. Luckily this was clearly advertsied as being a repro.

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As a little addition the scabbard bands of my three RRPP daggers.
First the earliest EICKHORN with built in scabbard mouth.

EICKH_early_red.jpg (29.26 KB, 555 downloads)

wotan, gd.c-b#105

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EICKHORN mid period but still heavily silvered.

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wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Very late HÖRSTER with aluminium coated scabbard (but I think I have seen the same scabbard bands with late period EIKHORNs too).

HÖRSTER_very_late_red.jpg (24.21 KB, 541 downloads)

wotan, gd.c-b#105

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My three RRPP.
From l to r: very early EICKHORN, mid period EICKHORN, very late period HÖRSTER (came with army portepee period attached out of the household of the former wearer).
Crossguard measurements: Early EICKHORN: 83,6 mm.
Mid period EICKHORN: 82,6 mm.
Very late period HÖRSTER: 84,4 mm.
Regards,

RRPP_3x_red.jpg (31.23 KB, 536 downloads)

wotan, gd.c-b#105

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DAMN Wotan! Those three rail daggers hanging together is an IMPRESSIVE sight! Seems like for most collectors this is one of those dagger types that they buy just one example of. I honestly don't think I have ever seen three together.
STUNNING!
and Congrats!
Johnny


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Wotan, that is simply exceptional Eek I was happy to have found one of these, but variants and makers... just beautiful!

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Wotan,

I'd be interested in learning a little more about your Horster, they are very tough to find and I suspect few collectors have ever inspected one...

Could you post a detail pic of the crossguard, pommel sunwheel and the lower ornate scabbard fitting? The obvious question is did Horster buy their fittings from Eickhorn, or did they go it alone. Horster daggers are often easily identifiable as they frequently did additional hand enhancements to their fittings, a bit like the hand-work and engraving seen on their Land Customs daggers which stands out from other period manufacturers.

Red

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Thanks to everyone who measured up their daggers and posted or e-mailed me their findings, its greatly appreciated. For those who may be interested, below are the results from the small sample, but still a good indicator...

Thanks Wink

Red

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Bahnschutz-sizes
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Notice that the 2 RR daggers in the Eickhorn book show the typical 2 piece pommel and NOT the standard Army type. IMO the "1st model" never existed as there is not proof, photos in ware etc. Even the scabbard bands are the same design. Much different than the Army dagger. IMO someone found a box of black grips and installed them on a bunch of Army daggers. Thus calling them RR daggers.

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@Redbaron:
Sorry, there are currently some difficulties in my private aera that don´t give me enough time to act here as I would like to do.
As soon as possible I will send you at least a mail concerning your case of interest.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Great triple set there wotan. Wow! Eek

I'm one who has never seen a Horster example and would look forward to seeing it.

-serge-

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One thing about the Horster is the TM on the blade. No other TR Dagger by Horster had this style TM with just the wording (no sword in wreath) just like their Police Bayonet blades of the 1930s, so no repros of this maker that I have ever seen.
My Horster Rail came out of Terra Heute, IN from a motel buy with hangers and knot and in choice mint conditon.
My Eickhorn with formed throat came from a motel buy in St. Louis directly from the US veteran with hangers and knot also. It shows some wear, but still like the silvered Eickhorn formed throat model and I have never seen a repro of this style either.
BTW, the Horster had the oval buckle hangers and the Eickhorn has the square buckle rare type.
Ron Weinand
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Ron, would LOVE to see some pics of these, or are they locked away with the rest of your horde Cool

I'm interested to learn more about the crossguards on the Horster, never seen one of these first-hand...

Red

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Sorry, their in the bank at the moment. May get them out over the summer time permitting, but am currently trying to photograph my engraved SAs for Tom Wittmann.
Ron Weinand
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quote:
So far the crossguard widths are consistent amongst our small sample of around 84mm, I wonder where 87mm came from as appears in the narrative in germandressdaggers.com? I would be very interested to know if anyone has a crossguard with that kind of dimension.


I realize I'm a year late for this discussion but I recently rejoined GDC. 87mm might have come from Stephens Reproduction? Recognition! He states that the real one he used for comparison was 87.5mm (crosssguard) vs. the repro which was 84.4. When I bought my Bahnschutz from Bill Shea, these measurements caused me to worry a bit as my crossguard wasn't 87mm but rather around 84mm like many GDC members who posted to this thread.

Chris

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Not everything in Reproduction? Recognition! is correct. Since Fred is coming to the MAX and is going to be on the panel discussion at the Seminar Program, maybe this should be one of the questions discussed.
Ron Weinand
Seminar Coordinator
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Chris,

Do you have any pictures of your Bahnschutz dagger ?

This hobby is always in evolution, theories that were known to be correct 15 years ago can sometimes be different today.

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Hi, here are a few I had kicking around.

Chris

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Scabbard tip...

DSCN2556_-_Copy.JPG (96.53 KB, 119 downloads)
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back of crossguard...

DSCN2568_-_Copy.JPG (105.79 KB, 117 downloads)

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