UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum Is it finally time for the perfect "fake"?

Some of you may find this discussion interesting - you may really want to take heed to the possibility of a REALLY GOOD forgery entering the market very soon.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304468

It was, and still is, only a matter of time . . .

Brad

Very interesting discussion .
We learn some new every day

Lh

I'm sorry to disagree guys but I do not believe for one second that the perfect fake SS dagger exist.<

It is always very difficult to appraise a dagger based on pics alone.
It is quite a different story when you have the dagger in your own hands.<
That Klaas repro blade being showned on WAF is light years aways from any textbook original one, not even close.
I'm not even worried for one second with those Spanish or Czech repro blades.
Just know your stuff and you won't get burned, that's all there is to it.

Maybe Pat - but even Paul was fooled this time!

Brad

P.S. Even if it's not here yet, I still believe the time will come . . .

I think here is not problem with identifikation fake.Maker mark etc is wrong.

May I be so bold and say, the perfect murder dose not exist and as that is true the perfect fake will never exist.For if its perfect it will not be detected. As the first most probably has happend, the second will not be far behind.

quote:

Originally posted by N.C. Wyeth:
Maybe Pat - but even Paul was fooled this time!

Brad

P.S. Even if it's not here yet, I still believe the time will come . . .

Brad,

Paul who ?
The reason why this SS EM was so "well made", was simply because it was constructed with original components and fake parts.
That's today biggest challenge and this is why it is sometimes really difficult to tell if it is real or not.
I also once got fooled by such a dagger, the blade was wrong but everything else was 100% textbook original.
The dagger in question had an original grip, crossguards, scabbard and it even had the original hanger.....................with a fake full Rohm E. Pack.

Making all those parts as reproduction, to me is impossible.<
That dagger on WAF was not perfect either as it was discovered as being a fake.

Show me pics of a perfect SS repro !

If they existed, trust me, we would know by then where they came from and who made them.

One more thing, we are all humans and as such, do make mistakes.
It is quite obvious that this SS EM would have fooled 99% of us(based on pics alone).....including me (I'm no expert and do not intend to be one ).
However, after closer examination ( and just from pics alone ), the dagger was being decribed as being fake.
Just imagine for one moment if JR had had that dagger in his hands ? Unless he had been completely drunk, it never would have passed the authenticity test.

C'mon guys, the blade on this SS EM is HORRIBLE.
It never would have passed the test through expert hands.

REMEMBER, opinions were only given based on pics alone and nothing else.
Nobody either took the time to really take a closer look at it.

Stop dreaming guys and feel reassured, the perfect "murder" does not yet exist.

That just my opinion !

The only time I will believe that such a perfect fake exist, is when someone will tell me, "here Pat, I just made that SS EM and it is all fake and you can't even tell the difference !".
Then and only then, will I believe it and sell my whole collection and every dealers will go bankrupt.

I have seen this there and my first thougts was : strange colour and danger ss inlet upper.The best man around JR does clarify this.

quote:

Originally posted by Pat:


Brad,

Paul who ?

Maybe this will help you recall your favorite fellow Canadian?

http://www.lakesidetrader.com/

Just for the record, I still believe the day will arrive (if it has not already), and when that happens, I'm sure that we'll make it a point to let each other know . . .

Brad

IMO-Nothing has been proven here-just a couple of opinions based on photos which are not the best. An in hand inspection or good photo comparison with another may result in a number of other opinions. So let's knock off the totally unnecessary nasty pointing of fingers as to who has made a mistake here. Oh--and there are NO perfect fake daggers or perfect fake blades. IMO NO improvement has been made over the old Rex Reddick blades which also were not perfect but a lot better than any made today.

quote:

Originally posted by N.C. Wyeth:
Some of you may find this discussion interesting - you may really want to take heed to the possibility of a REALLY GOOD forgery entering the market very soon.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304468

It was, and still is, only a matter of time . . .

Brad

Are you 100 % sure this Klaas with small etching is a fake ?

This may be a variant seldom seen ( small logo)of the Klaas type.

Where do you get your knowledge from ? too say this is a fake dagger in the Waf tread ?

best Regards Lh 600

Absolutely right on Houston ! I could'nt have said that any better!

As I tried to say in that thread on WaF, a comparison with a big maker-mark blade is no evidence either way. Same with motto characteristics, there are known differences on other makers when speaking of R�hm vs non-R�hm daggers, so why not with Klaas???

I was really hoping for Paul (lakeside) to chime in and tell what is correct and not correct with these Klaas small mm R�hm daggers. I have never had one of these in hand.
So for me it is still open.

Best regards,

quote:

Originally posted by Ed Sunday:
Absolutely right on Houston ! I could'nt have said that any better!

I will second that !

Yes, Paul Hogle is my favorite Canadian and be certain that he never would have been fooled by this particualr dagger if he had it in his hands....no freakin way !

Paul doesn't need any defending but he wasn't asked in the first place for his opinion and neither was he asked to authenticate this dagger.
He simply made an appreciative reply, like we all did, based on those pics alone and nothing else.

This thread is the very reason you will never replace the show experience and "in hand" examination or buying with the internet experience.
This is the reason I always take with a grain of salt the opinions and expressions made on the internet about PICTURED items. Pictures can be off and made to look differently with lighting and effects, so I am not quick to accept anything shown or sold via pictures and the internet.
This site, as well as other collector driven sites are only another tool in the collectors belt, not the holy grail or the complete answer to ascertaining originality or "perfect example" status.
We can use all the tools to develop our own ideas and opinions, but they are just that and not to be totally relied upon as the best way to determine what is and what isn't.
JMO,
Ron Weinand

We can clone living organisms- that makes me a little sure someone can clone a dagger!!

quote:

Originally posted by b_vanfossen:
We can clone living organisms- that makes me a little sure someone can clone a dagger!!

True, luckily for the time being obeservations can be made to flag this fake such as "the cranes that don't kiss", etc. We should get our hands on this bad boy!

I admit I only took a quick glance over "the photos" maybe a little too quick and was fooled, as several where. Detailed inspection and awareness of these new tell-tale signs of this new fake in addition to what has been established to determine original pieces will surely weed them out quickly.

quote:

Originally posted by b_vanfossen:
We can clone living organisms- that makes me a little sure someone can clone a dagger!!

.....and yet, we cannot duplicate a Stradivarius.

quote:

Originally posted by Pat:

quote:

Originally posted by b_vanfossen:
We can clone living organisms- that makes me a little sure someone can clone a dagger!!

.....and yet, we cannot duplicate a Stradivarius.

I KNOW...Stadivarius and his stupid secret....

No secret, its the area in which the wood was gathered, and the unique traits of the wood. And there have been good attempts.

quote:

Originally posted by johnwraith:
No secret, its the area in which the wood was gathered, and the unique traits of the wood. And there have been good attempts.

Stradivarious-"To no avail."

quote:

Originally posted by LH 600:

Are you 100 % sure this Klaas with small etching is a fake ?

This may be a variant seldom seen ( small logo)of the Klaas type.

Where do you get your knowledge from ? too say this is a fake dagger in the Waf tread ?

best Regards Lh 600

No, I'm not sure - I'm still riding the fence just like everyone else around here. I can't recall ever saying this specific dagger is a forgery - only bringing to the light the current discussion elsewhere and it's inherent connotations for all. Maybe some of us were hasty in our comments - maybe not? Just wanted to bring up a subject (for the benefit of all) that warrants a more cautious approach than previously assumed by many, including myself . . .

Brad

quote:

Originally posted by Houston Coates:
So let's knock off the totally unnecessary nasty pointing of fingers as to who has made a mistake here.

Hou,

Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. I like Paul, and I'm not pointing fingers - only trying to get everyone to realize that sometimes a little more caution by everyone could be in order with SS daggers nowadays. With the crazy prices they are getting, it could be becoming all that more attractive to improve the forgeries for those that are willing to try . . .

Brad

Fine-we all need to be careful. Its a two edged sword. Considerable damage can be done when we condemn too quick or we praise something as original when it is not. In MANY cases, as Ron has said--Photos are just not enough--and a few opinions or something said in a book may not be correct. We need to use ALL the tools we have available.

The Klaas small logo is an extremely rare piece. Very very few have even handled one.
I'm not conviced one way or the other and would love to have this one in hand...
Mistakes and misjudgements no one is above. I make my share of errors, believe me. It's when one thinks they know it all is when one is headed for a crash!!
Like everyone else I'm part of this community to learn.

I have a Klaas ground Rohm which I've posted here before, it has the small logo which is quite different to the dagger questioned in this thread.

The one I have is identical in every way to an early Klaas, same crossguards, scabbard mounts, motto etch, etc. The only difference to a standard Klaas is the small logo and the motto is further down the blade. Witty shows one of these small logo versions in his SS Bible.

Not the greatest condition, but a nice un-messed with dagger...

Obverse

Motto

Thank you Red Baron

Best regards,

JR is such a romantic person in that he is correct that the cranes they should kiss. His other points on the dagger in question are even more on point showing that it is at best non-typical.

But about the motto etch, I would like to point out that the tips of the crane beaks should intersect at the level of the necks going into the crane bodies. The two beaks that do not touch are above that. Thus it could be possible that the wax etch mask did not have all the wax off at that position and the 2 beaks are not fully formed during the etch process.

Photo attached of my examples.

It could also mean that we all might be seeing some VERY GOOD fakes very soon - everyone here it seems would very much like to bury their heads in the sand about this, but I still say that with as profitable a venture as it is to make a perfect fake, if it has not happened yet (but I really believe it already has), it will happen very soon . . .

Sorry about the bad news, but I'm not the only one that believes this to be true. Someday the reality will be revealed, and the doubt will no longer be strong enough to allow those that believe to keep burying their heads deeper into the sand . . .

If you have real and legitimate SS blades, bury them deep - the tide is coming . . .

Brad

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RHanson:
JR is such a romantic person . . . [QUOTE]

If only you (and others) knew . . .

Brad