UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum Himmler

One of our fellow arms society members walked in tonight with this Himmler. Which suprised the hell out of me because he does not know much about Third Reich stuff. Opinions please.

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My opinion!! Simple- Make him an offer he cannot refuse

Take some better pictures !

Dave

I agree... bigger and better pictures are needed. However, from what I can see so far, it does look good.

Looks original to me but better pics would be needed for a better evaluation.
It has the textbook "fat" Eickhron grip, high neck eagle inlay, no dot on the "i", low maker marked ( close to the crossguard ) and probably has a number written underneath its lower crossguard.
This would be a great find and make him an offer.
This could be the deal of the year.

Sounds like you some of you guys are suggesting this "unknowing" collector be offered the "dealer" price or the "motel buyers" price. Wow-the deal of the year--yeah! Seems like this is what many collectors complain about all the time--but it's OK if they do it-right? Why sure! Could there be a double standard here?

Houston,
Everybody want to see this non collector get a fair price for his dagger, but you are not going to go crazy on the price and offer him $10,000 for his dagger. I have bought from too many vets that if you offer them the going price a lot of times you scare them off, so you offer them somewhere in the middle and they can always say no and you renogiate with them.
Lets face it we run ads and talk to non collectors so we can buy original items and buy at reasonable prices

This guy also brought in a SS Officers sword with SS knot. Claims he got the dagger and sword from his WW11 dad. He had no idea what castor markings were when I asked him if he had taken them apart. My gut feeling is that the Himmler is good. BTW this is the first Himmler I'v ever had my hands on. I doubt if I can get a good deal on it after he checked out Wittmans website.

Go Houston! I believe I have heard this somewhere before have I not???
Pat, is this Wittmann's table?
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

i went to a small antique fair sunday and bought a partialy ground rohm by eickhorn. i asked the price and the seller told me to make an offer .as i only had �500 on me i offered �450 and was surprised when he accepted. it turns out he did a house clearance were he was paid to clear the house so got the dagger for less then nothing. was i wrong to offer a quarter of its value? i really dont think so

Houston you are obviously in the wrong business. Anyone who despises and ridicules their customers should go find another line of work. MY OPINION! Gee... have I heard that before?

quote:

Originally posted by Houston Coates:
Sounds like you some of you guys are suggesting this "unknowing" collector be offered the "dealer" price or the "motel buyers" price. Wow-the deal of the year--yeah! Seems like this is what many collectors complain about all the time--but it's OK if they do it-right? Why sure! Could there be a double standard here?

Houston that�s what we all do in someway or another when buying from outside sources, but generally speaking we as collectors don't constantly raise market price and try and get above top dollar for something because we people want it, that my friend is sticking to people. I see SA going around a thousand and more now, that�s just stupid and I know dealers are laughing all the way to the bank, thinking and knowing that a stupid little marker mark is actually making a different�s and driving prices up. That why I sold all my daggers because this area of the hobby is become stupid and I won�t take a part in it this stupidness. Good luck selling your rare number 10 SA daggers; like its any different then the number 1 SA but hell raise the prices some more. This area of the hobby was fun 6 years ago(When I started in daggers) but something changes and people got greedy therefore turning this dagger hobby into a money game, the guys with bucks get the stuff. That another reason I sold my daggers, I could have every model I wanted if I just cough up the $$$$ somebody will find it. People lost the reason they collect and only see $$$$ signs now, they are making a mockery of history and their thanking Hitler everyday for this high dollar items that are making them rich. Well good luck, I will stand by and collect the stuff that isn�t valuable and hasn�t caught the dealers eyes yet the items they haven�t wrote a book about so they can make prices go up, its still history to me and far more important then the $$$. The only dagger I will ever buy again will be from an ad, or maybe really good friend in the hobby. Never from a dealer that is making a dime a dozen SA over a thousand dollars, guys and it not only their fault. Its also out inability to grasp that a maker mark doesn�t change anything about the appearance of a dagger. Maybe there is better made makers I accept that but none of them are any different looking, they are exactly alike unless you sit and stare at a �" X �" section of the dagger the whole time. Don�t even bother posting a comment back that we the collectors are the biggest factor in driving the prices up, that is a falsity and you know it. I remember quiet well when the dealers raise the prices of all their daggers across the board, just because it was time to do so or something, why not edge them up little by little just raise them all at once they�ll(collectors) get adjusted to it soon enough, right? I wouldn�t have wasted my time with this post if it wasn�t for that snide comment about �double standards�. Hell I say get good deals on items, why not. But to then in turn rape your fellow collectors with a 60% increase in price, sad. An honest collect that is in it for the right reason gives and honest price back to the community, I see it everyday but not in the dagger area that why you can count me out, I will stick to the areas that are not yet nourished buy the dealers trying to get rich off of our backs.. Oh and the dealers are doing well keeping the younger generation in the hobby, haha right. Remember it don�t matter to them if they stay in or not because they will be long gone from this hobby before the future collector or young collectors mature into a full grown collectors(If they ever do). So all I can say to the dealers is keep your daggers your taking all the history out of them and turning them into assets anyways. Haben Sie eine gute Zeit und Ihr Geld ausgeben!
And Dow so far the Himmler looks good, good luck to you on getting a great deal, and sorry for my long spiel, I hope I didn�t ruin your thread.

Adam,

It's Friday - go have a drink and think about something else. Maybe tomorrow things will look a little better? I feel the same way you do, but it doesn't have to kill your enthusiasm and enjoyment for the hobby - you just have to modify and adapt where you channel that interest. I too struggled a while with the astronomical inflation factors that kill the hobby for the working man like myself. Now, I find myself more interested in the history and less interested in attaining more pieces for my collection. I'm actually spending more money and time on books and bookcases than I am on additions to my collection! I actually went to the SOS this year with a large sum of money, and came out with just as much as I went in with!

It used to be that I spent a large amount of my income specifically on SS daggers. Now I can't afford the crazy prices that few still do. Maybe these prices are wrong, maybe they are not - it really doesn't matter to me any more. I don't let that get in the way of enjoying the ones I have and learning more about them. I actually find it fun "window-shopping" at most of the Shows now!

Take a break, enjoy some time away from your frustration. In time you will find what the hobby should truly be about, and I bet you come back with just as much enthusiasm and interest as you had here from the start! I still remember a bumper-sticker I saw a lot of in the 80's - it said, "He who dies with the most toys wins!" (I'm sure a lot of the other middle-aged and older collectors here will remember it as well). Every time I think about that bumper-sticker I'm reminded of how I prove it wrong every day - I don't have very many toys (by choice now), but I sure feel like I've won every time I think about all of the other things I've been blessed with!

Brad

Dow, Never suggest to anybody to take apart anything, especially a non-collector. If this guy yanks the pommel nut off of the Himmler with his favorite vice grips it aint' going to be pretty. And then when he over tightens it on assembly, splits the grip in half, we'll all be crying.

Then it get better if he decided to take down an early NS step fitting SS degen. It will end up like this !

When a person starts messing with anything that is 60 years old, they are taking one hell of a chance of doing some terrible damage. I call this the "pet raccoon" approach. What ever they can't fruck up, they poop on !

I understand where you are coming from Brad. But I am done with daggers, as far as actively collecting them, its always been about the history to me and sadly somewhere along the line this area of the hobby has lost its "History interest" factor to me mostly since it became such a money game and has become something that has nothing to do with history and more to do with makers and money. Well the dealers lost one customer not that they really care about one anyway's they are making their living off of more then on buster but not me anymore, also there are some good dealers and reasonable once but the money men far outweigh them. A lot of you guys need to open your eyes and gather why the hell you collect, and really evaluate what all this little crap that is driving the price up really means(Because the guys writing the books know, more money to them). Does it really relate to the history or is it the desire to keep up with the Jones and have the most toys. Because this dagger area and a few others have nothing to do with this War and all the sacrifice so many gave, and all to do with show and praises, making a mockery of the history is what you are doing like it or not. Brad you are right, a lot of people are buying this stuff just to have the most �toys� you can easily see that! Kinda like the old lady the did paint by number and had them all over her house, but she really didn�t know why she kept doing more and more but she could talk all day about them. I think I will go to the bar, this threads got me heated and it isn't going to change, I sold most my daggers over the past couple of month's and good reddens to them, hope all the people that got them enjoy them and really get what they should out of them.

How well I remember that SS Honor degen pictured above. It is an early one with the pinned SS grip insignia. It was taken apart by a jeweler who had no idea how to do it properly as well as I can recall.
Jim

Adam ,I do agree with you that prices have gone some what out of site but that's no reason to knock the guy who can buy at high prices.As far as MM your right for the average collector,me I have one SA a Voos OK shape they don't do anything for me.My Boker SS was bought 20yrs ago cost $800 a lot of money for a guy with 2 kids.Also you were selling two daggers I didn't see you giving them away on the first day.I think your SA was $800 thats a dealer price .Don't take this as an attack as it's not meant to be.The other thing we all look for a good deal,i want to find the guy who offers a vet 10K plus for a Himmler when he asked for $100.Offer it and you won't get it.Had a guy with a Luft Standard Flight.I didn't know what it was worth and offered $800 flags weren't my area.Acouple of days I thought about it and offered $1000 figured it was worth it.That tipped him off he fished it around told me he had an offer of $4500 than I found out what it was.I upped my offer to $4800.It sold for$8000 + and it's not hanging in my room.BTW the guy was not a vet he got it off his friend who was a vet,I wonder if he split the money ,the last I heard he was taking a trip with his wife to Hawaii

Adam,

Explain to us all why someone who makes their living selling antique militaria should NOT charge the best price they can get.

Or .. why a collector selling a dagger should not do the same thing.

Thanks

Dave

Dave,

The only explanation you will ever get to offer a sale for a lower return would be for the simple fact of comradery, friendship, or debt. If you don't feel any of those compassions for a fellow collector, then you will probably live by the "worldly" rule of "take everybody for everything you can get".

At least that's how I see it . . .

Brad

Brad,

Thanks - but I'm interested in Adam's opinion on this subject.

Dave

I believe there's quite a bit of difference between "market value" and "taking everybody for everything you can get"

William

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Hohaus:
Adam,

Explain to us all why someone who makes their living selling antique militaria should NOT charge the best price they can get.

Or .. why a collector selling a dagger should not do the same thing.

Thanks

Dave

Good question Dave, so when is the �best price� they can get enough? They want more, more and even more at the collectors expense. They(Dealers) write books to drive up the prices, they know it does even the collectors do and collectors start buying a certain dagger before the book come�s out so they can bank in on it also. So there is also collectors that are just as guilty as the dealers in driving up price, that�s who thrives on these books. Its like turning history into a stock market game and it a bunch of crap. I know there is honest people that support this hobby for more then the money. I know a few, myself. I sold all my dagger some on this site but most through other venues. I can use that money too buy a whole room of Third Reich history that hold just as much significant as daggers but these day I can own 10 daggers or so with that money. What is so special about a dagger, a different guard manufacture, should that really make a dagger more desirable? I hardly think that one person in the Third Reich could of gave too craps less about a dagger, as a matter of fact hardly one veteran that I have talked to officer or not even remembers their daggers or any dagger for that matter. They are far to historically insignificant to call for the price that they are receiving these days it pure crap, and the dealers have made them into something they are not, sure I think they are beautiful and works of art, but I think if people looked at what that dagger really means and what it is in historical contexts they would be far less likely to pay these stupid prices. Although I think there is a lot of people that just buy because they can, and when they get old they will sell, because that is all this hobby is to them a simple pass time, it come�s it goes. Tell me Dave what is the need for the annual price increases? Do they raise just because its time, or because it makes them feel good inside? No they increase them because they figure everyone else will just follow suit, and blindly they will and without question. Well I won�t, so they can keep their daggers and their amassed wealth and feel good at night with there giving and happy spirted self�s, while thanking Ole Adolf for commission Solingen to produce these millions of daggers and making them rich in the process. Really when is enough, enough? 10 SS Himmler daggers(roughly $120,000) or a nice house in middle class America, I could see if most of these daggers were historically significant. But $1200 SA that was probably only owned by some SA thug(A Nobody), hardly worth $1200 because its in good shape and had a rare maker mark.. I could ramble on and on, but the dealers are making way more money then they even need to make off some off this stuff, and on top of that who really know�s if it hasn�t been revamped. Apparently our Cert systems can�t prevent that or sell fakes, but that another story and completely off topic.


Ed Martin, I don't have anything against people buying stuff because they have the money to I just question, why. Because 6 years ago I could have a mint SA for $300 why must they sell for $1000+ now its not anymore historically significant now then it was then its still a SA dagger(a commie stabber ) Like I siad before, I don't think an 1/2 x 1/2 mark on the back of the dagger means anything more in the whole scheme of history. And how many of you guy's really display your daggers with the maker mark showing? You can't even see them unless you are a couple feet away. Its just a price increase scheme, and deep down even the guys that don't want to admit it know it.

Adam,

Interesting take on the hobby. Can I ask what you do for a living ?

Dave

Hi All,
I am a fellow club member with Dow and was there when this guy brought in the two SS blades. I hope Dow will not mind me jumping in on this topic.

I believe the dagger owner may have inherited many of items from his dad, who I believe was a collector and a WWII vet. The owner believed it had never been a part but the pommel nut has evidence of plier marks. This along with the chipping/cleanup on the grip leads me to believe it has been apart. He seems to have attempted some research as he owns TW's SS book and many of Johnson's books.

Dow did the best he could with the pictures. It was a "Show and Tell" envirenment with terrible lighting and it was dark outside. The dagger was on display for less than an hour. I doubt it will come out of the closet for years to come.

It was a pleasure and suprise to see these blades at our meeting. I have never seen a Himmler dagger in person before but from my experience with my own daggers, it looked good enough for me to spend most of the meeting looing it over.

I doubt this guy would ever sell the dagger. He seems pretty attached to them. He seems to be pretty well off and not in need of getting rid of anything and is also interested in collecting since he is a member of our club.

Kalvin (aka Blademan)

I am a Tool and Die-Toolmaker(in laymans terms a Machinist) I program computers so I can press a button and watch a machine make a part, while I collect a pay check worth well more then what I am doing is worth. I admit that. And I am not working right now, and loving it. All the free time and free money is great. At one point I had enough stuff to start my own web site, I could of been a dealer. Ask Bob or Gailen how much stuff I sold them for quarters on the dollar, I still made money and walked away happy. It was mostly all veteran and ad aquired and I sold it for slightly more then I payed. We were all happy.

Personally, I have no problem paying for what I like to collect. Maker marks are what I collect when I can find them. I worked very hard, read a lot and can afford it. Nobody gave me any money to do this with. I earned every penny I ever made thru sweat and worry. I find it relaxing and a great sense of accomplishment to aquire the rarer stuff. I never collected it to lose money. I collect to make money on my investments like stocks. A few daggers is for history. More than a few are damn sure an investment. You can either play or fold, there is really no other choice.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it

Mark

Adam ....
It is the way of the world my friend.

Take the computer industry. Software designers design the latest and greatest game or program. Of course it requires system requirements that you don't have - so you upgrade your computer to take advantage of the great software. Pretty soon, the hardward makers come out with the Pentium 1-Quadrillion Hertz chip ..... so the software makers make software tailored for the faster system. You end up upgrading again.

There are enough daggers to go around it seems. If everyone refused to buy until the prices dropped, they they would come down .... right ?!? Wrong! As long as there are people willing to pay the prices, the prices will continue to go up. They are going up on everything too - not just SA's

Myself, I don't get into the maker mark collecting. For a while I was looking for Henkles stuff, but that turned out to be a phase.

I don't begrudge anyone making as much as the market will allow on any item they sell.

Sometime watch the movies Victory of the Faith and Triumph of Will (if you haven't already) Look at all the soldiers .... they all had tunics, they all had helmets, most had daggers .... I know they don't all survive to this day, but when I watch old movies like those, I think we all overpay for this stuff.

IMO there is a lot of dealer bashing going around-but no one ever says anything bad about the "COLLECTOR". LET'S NOT BE SO ONE SIDED!
THAT WAS MY POINT. We all like a bargain and we all like to make a profit when we sell. There are good and bad dealers and there are good and bad collectors too. End of story. You have to live with yourself in the end. Think about it-Let he who is without sin cast the first stone-and who would that be? No one.

Houston you tend to sell most your stuff for fair prices, some must be shocked that you make anything on some of the stuff, I bet you do though. You seem fair as do a few other, thats get far and few between. But for some it is all bout the money, and all they truly care about this hobby is that A,B and C: It keeps paying them!! Writing books doesn't mean you give a crap about it especially when the books make you more money.

Thanks for that Adam--but I can't agree about most of the books--It's a ton of work and I think you have to care quite a bit to write one.Also I don't believe you sell that many-MANY don't buy them or buy second hand.

Houston,You need to get to bed early tonight,the doors open at 7:30 Sat. T.

Wow,
Some bad blood going on here. ANY market is about supply and demand. The market sets the price. The market has a lot of perceived wealth from home equity loans. That is changing as house prices plummet. Prices on all goods will roll over as he consumer rolls over. Dealers can get what they get now and more power to them. We are a capitalist country and why not profit. If I want something, I will get it if I can afford it. I just plunked down 5 grand on a solar telescope tonight. No need to complain. I will enjoy it. Just like I enjoy the recent purchases from members on this forum. Buy what you can afford, make money, and quit whining.

I think we could argue the economic points of this hobby endlessly (as we have many times before), but in the end, this hobby (and many others alike) is truly no more than, euphamistically, a Roman blood-sport - we feed off of each other to see who can de-flesh the next victim, and everyone stands around watching the show for a chance to be next in line. We even brag amongst ourselves about how muchg we spend and how much we have. It's a never ending cycle that we are all drawn into, and we all see how far we can push the next guy for our own better positioning in the cycle. Economics at it's most ruthless here. Take as much as you can get and continue the spiraling cycle. Nothing will ever change in this hobby - history proves that in many facets of econmic review. Maybe there is even a touch of meglamania evident in all collecting?

I for one have become a little depressed about the whole situation, but I still face the addiction every day. No one here is free of that addiction. Maybe we should all question ourselves about what and where we direct our integrity fromm time to time amongst fellow enthusiasts before we commit to collecting primarily as investment over scholarship? Personally , I think this is something a lot of people here should spend some time contemplating, dealers and collectors alike . . . .

Brad

Dave,

Are you interested (or even somewhat sympathetic) in that point of view?

Brad

I don't know the age of all the writers ,I know Adam is in his early 20's.I always had an interest in military items from when I was a young kid (7-8yrs)my first dagger I bought at about 43yrs old.Income was there bills were lighting up.I think we will find a lot of the guys buying in this age bracket.High prices they were high 20yrs ago.I bought maybe 2-3 daggers a yr when all the common were bought it became 1 a yr.Now I'm retired I have the income but it not important to me so I buy when I like what I like.Recent buys a Forest Dagger didn't go to last yrs MAX because of it.White top Luft that I've been waiting a long time and the right price for.Like Mark said we work hard as everone else does and that includes dealers who often are on a show tour sleeping in motels and away from family.How about when they buy 10 daggers and 2 are worth the money and there stuck with 8 bummers.Or the dealer who receives a return 2-4 weeks later and not to smeer his name returns the full amount while the item has been taken out of circulation for the time.I remember a top dealer complaining one time about selling a dagger only to have it returned 3wks. later.The reason he later found out was the buyer was trying to roll the dagger over for profit and it didn't work out.
I may sound like I'm cheering for dealers but come on guys the history side sounds good but I don't see many selling for the same price they paid for ,I know I won't