UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories Medals & Badges of the Third Reich Forum Pilot/observer badge discussion

I moved this topic into it's own for further discussion. Let's keep it civil guys, this could be a good topic on variations and such. Here is a link to the other topic with a pic of the badge, go to page two.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/800097573/m/5530014164

Fritziii

Point taken. If Robin wrote the letter, possibly he might want to comment.

Chris, you write Robins name. We know from your writings you do not like the badge. If Richard's letter is from Robin what's the big deal if Robin likes the badge?
*This is a good topic about Cased Medals and Badges. Maybe the moderator here can move these last few posts into its own topic about the controversy of this badge. We're all gentlemen here, maybe some interesting discussion and new findings will come out about the piece. ,G.

I think it would be good to disclose this "Expert", the badge is a very interesting piece, seen so many times, with the ulitmate explanation. As you have said before about an expert, you respect. One I also have known for many years, Robin Lumsden, maybe he would like to comment on your letter.

"I was very interested to see the photos and slides. I can't say much about them other than that I haven't seen similar ones and the look to be of very good quality."

"I wonder if the pilot/observer badge with brilliants might be some sort of prototype? I know for a fact that the Bavarian Army Museum in Ingolstadt has a set of Oakleaves, Swords and Diamonds for the Knight's Cross which are supposedly the first prototype priduced and which are cast from standard dies with jems set in drilled holes, in the same manner as the sapphires are set in your badge. Perhaps your badge is, therefore, an early variant, before the badge was entirely hand made and covered in diamonds?"

"There is another alternative as well. You know how the Navy produced silver war badges with diamonds only on the swastika (e.g. Ausillary Cruiser, High Seas Fleet, E-Boat etc. for presentation to Naval personnel in these branches of the Navy who won the knight's Cross with Oakleaves? These diamond studded war badges are well documented as is the criteria for their award. It strikes me that the badge in your possession is very similar indeed in manufacture to these other diamond studded warbadges. Perhaps this is a prototype of a badge which was intended for presentation to all pilots who won the Knight's Cross with Oakleaves?? Actually, on reflection, I think that that is a more plausible explanation that it being an early version of the standard pilot/observer with diamonds."

"All this is just guesswork, however."

If anyone is interested in who the individual who I quoted in my above post, I shall be happy to tell you privately...just send me an email. I still have the original letter in my possession.

fritziii

Excellent, good thinking, creating a new environment for this topic.

You may wish to consider a slight adjustment in the order of the postings from 11/21 according to the times of their posting. I believe that gaspare was responding to Christopher Ailsby's first posting, then Christopher Ailsby responded with "good point" and, my last posting actually followed my initial posting, which you posted the link to.

CLOSE OBVERSE VIEW OF SPECIMEN -- FINELY DETAILED STRUCK IN .800 SILVER, GILDED, WITH 15 WHITE SAPPHIRES SET IN THE ARMS, NOT GLUED OR PRESSED INTO THE HOLES.

I, AS TO OTHERS, CONSIDER THIS A SPECIMEN BADGE, IT IS POSSIBLE THAT IT MAY HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN WORN AT ONE TIME. I SAY THIS SIMPLY DUE TO THE FACT THE BADGE EXHIBITS SLIGHT WEAR TO THE HIGHER POINTS, EXPOSING THE SILVER BASE METAL.

I COVERED THIS SPECIMEN IN DETAIL IN MY 1997 BOOK, ALONG WITH THE LETTER FROM WHICH I QUOTED IN MY INITIAL POSTING UNDER THE TOPIC "CASED BADGES" AND, WHICH CHRISTOPHER AILSBY QUOTED IN HIS INITIAL RESPONSE.

ALSO, IN MY BOOK YOU WILL FIND THE LETTERS FROM THE PRODUCER OF THIS BADGE - RUDOLF SOUVAL, ACKNOWLEDGING THIS. SHOULD YOU NOT HAVE A COPY OF MY BOOK AVAILABLE, I SHALL BE MOST HAPPY TO PROVIDE THEM, AS I HAVE SOME COPIES AT MY DISPOSAL HOWEVER, YOU WOULD HAVE TO CONTACT ME BY EMAIL.

OBVERSE PHOTOS OF SPECIMEN -- THESE WERE TAKEN BACK IN 1997 WITH COLOR FILM, NOT DIGITAL. WITHIN THE NEXT WEEK I SHALL REPEAT THE REVERSE PRESENTATION USING MY DIGITAL CAMERA. THE OBVERSE PHOTO IN THE ABOVE POSTING MORE CLOSELY REPRESENTS OF THE ACTUAL FINISH OF THIS SPECIMEN.

POINT TO CONSIDER ... THIS MAY POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN AN ATTEMPT BY THE PRODUCER TO BREAK INTO THE AREA OF LUFTWAFFE BADGE PRODUCTION NEAR THE END OF THE THIRD REICH PERIOD. SUBMITTED FOR CONSIDERATION BUT, WITH THE WAR ENDING BEFORE IT COULD BE APPROVED, SIMPLY STORED THE ORIGINAL DIES, REDISCOVERING THEM IN THE 60'S AND PRODUCING THE COPIES, AS WE KNOW THEM TODAY?

I WISH TO NOTE, I AM NOT COMPARING THIS SPECIMENT TO THE KNOWN LUFTWAFFE COMBINED PILOT AND OBSERVER BADGE WITH DIAMONDS. MORE SO, I AGREE AND SUBSCRIBE TO THE LATER THEORY PRESENTED IN MY EARLIER QUOTES IN MY INITIAL POSTING.

This thread has been brought to my attention and I have been asked to comment on it.

This is the situation.

Many years ago, Richard Kimmel sent me a photo of this badge and asked for my opinion on it.

I gave my opinion to him in a private letter.

He later published that letter in his little 'book', without asking me, and has since quoted it in support of the badge.

Since I wrote him that private letter, which he published, my views on the badge have changed.

I now think it is fake.

We live and learn. One thing I have learned is not to send any more opinions via private letter.

Robin, could you give us the reasons for your change of opinion? ,thanks ,G.

quote:

Originally posted by Gaspare:
Robin, could you give us the reasons for your change of opinion? ,thanks ,G.

Two things really.......

Firstly, the original photos were not as good as those now available. The badge looked good in the photos and I had never seen another one like it at that time.

Secondly, I've learned by experience. In recent years, I have seen 'diamond-studded' fakes like this aplenty.

Respectfully, Robin's response is a bit like one changing horses in mid stream.

Two scenarios were offered by Robin and included, along with others, what I believed were "educated" opinions, important information for the multitude of collectors reading my "little" book. So that they may be better equipped to form their own opinions.

Permission was not needed to pass this, along with other "educated" opinions to my readers and militaria community. After all, isn't information an essential segment in this, as in any area of collecting?

There was no verbiage in Robin's letter indicating "privacy" concerning his opinion. This an other original letters have been kept in file as an intricate part of forming the complete reference on this specimen.

One point must be made clear, this specimen is not a "diamond" badge as the ones being alluded to. I had thought this was made clear early on?

I believe that Robin's referece to "the original photos" he had been privied to many years ago, are the same ones in the composite posted here (earlier posting above). Although, taken with a film camera, I would think that they exhibit considerable detail. Detail that would enable an "experienced" collector to form an opinion (s).

If one is going to offer a comment, please, keep your perspective in context with my original postings. (reference to my previous postings)

I thank Robin for his response.

Gasper, I return to your comment, "Chris, you write Robins name. We know from your writings you do not like the badge. If Richard's letter is from Robin what's the big deal if Robin likes the badge?"

I think that the possition has been very clearly and profectionally answered.In this light, and in Richards words about trusting an expert, the matter of this badge and orriganality is well and truly settled. WE ALL CAN CONCLUDE IT IS A FAKE.

quote:

Two things really.......

Firstly, the original photos were not as good as those now available. The badge looked good in the photos and I had never seen another one like it at that time.

Secondly, I've learned by experience. In recent years, I have seen 'diamond-studded' fakes like this aplenty

Thanks for the response Robin...

Richard, you mention you have a letter from Souval about your badge. Could you post it?

Gapare

this badge is a poor fake. Why worry about a letter from Souval, which basically says copy. Please this piece has been around for a very long time. Richard has been told it is a FAKE. I saw it in 1992, told him very dicreatly, fake. Angolia told him FAKE. Fore man told him fake.

Please let this die forever. NO COLLECTOR IN HIS RIGHT MIND WOULD CONTANANCE THE PIECE. I do not think you are swimming against the tide. As my Old Grandma said, "If wishes were horses beggars would ride."

Please Richard, stop showing this badge. It dose you no good.

Still waiting for a discussion detailing specific concerns about originality versus non-origanility pertaining to the badge in question.

--dj--Joe

Still waiting for a discussion detailing specific concerns about originality versus non-origanility pertaining to the badge in question.

In responce, the badge shown did not exist in the period to 1945. A simple fact. Thus the piece shown was produced after the war. It is a fantercey item, made by Souval and sold for a few pounds. As Robin Lumsden has stated a great number of these copies are around.

It is of very poor workmanship, marked with fake marks. I have handeled the piece in 1992, told Richard the truth about the thing. What more could be possibly said.

I have a 1950 piocture of the original Alantic shield. Should we discuse the merits and demerits of the piece. Plus with it was the other form not taken up. This would make great discusion as to originality.

Christopher, You must remember a pretty penny must have been paid for the piece..You'd want something concrete also...
You mention it was made by Souval. Weren't their postwar records good enough to write him something to say one way or another as to it being postwar?!? I'm sure that would end it one way or another for the badge...

OR, if there is a "great number of these copies are around", someone please show one and put this to rest for Richard...,thanks , G.

Firstly to "G" ... Thank you for you questions to Mr. Ailsby.



So much for "If wishes were horses beggers would ride"

IN REPLY, I THINK RICHARD DID NOT PAY VERY MUCH FOR THE PIECE. I WAS PRIVALIGED TO MEET THE SELLER AT THE MAUL WERE HE BOUGHT THE PIECE. In conersation with "Lou" he made it abundantly clear that he did not believe it was original. This happened in 1992 when Richard took me with my partner Lynn accompanied by his friend John.



MAYBE NOW THIS CAN BE PUT TO REST.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Christopher J Ailsby:
IN REPLY, I THINK RICHARD DID NOT PAY VERY MUCH FOR THE PIECE.

MAYBE NOW THIS CAN BE PUT TO REST.QUOTE]

Christopher, you're absolutely corect, I did pay very little for the specimen. The fact is that no cash exchanged hands however, I made an excellent trade for it.

OK everyone, I edited a few posts as I see there was trouble brewing. I started this thread so we all can figure out whats up with this badge, not start taking shots at each other. I ask that we keep this topic on spot about the badge only and not make it personal, there are other places to do that but not here please. Like I asked at the beginning of this thread keep it civil. Now if I offended anyone for doing this my apologies but I wanted to stop the arguments before they got ugly.

Fritziii

I support the decision to edit!

I also would desire to see like copies.

--dj--Joe

quote:

Originally posted by derjager:
I support the decision to edit!

I also would desire to see like copies.

--dj--Joe

Joe... The Souval copies that Mr. Ailsby and Mr. Lumsden are making reference to are in fact the ones that were produced during the early 60's. The reference to copies that Mr. Angolia made was in fact produced, either for or distributed by a company by the name of Hollywood Military Hobbies and, were supplied without cases.

I believe that I stated the construction details of my specimen early on and, shall stand by that. The negative terms that been used by some who feel differently about this specimen, have yet to prove their case. To date, this has yet to be accomplished.

The word "exact" has never been used ... Always the terms "Like" "Similar" or other middle of the road terms, have been used in the negative comments.

Joe, I feel that we all would lke to see any back up photographs these or, other individuals may have?

Richard, you seem to have some heavy hitters against the badge.You mention there wasn't a big cash outlay,so,other than the opinons from these experienced collectors/authors you only have the facts, which there doesn't seem to be much.. Sometimes though the fun is in the research..
I have seen, once, a Souval diamond badge copy used as a display,,the reverse was not like yours,,and I'm pretty sure the badge wasn't solid silver..Is there anyone that has a photo of the postwar copies they could show us here? OR photos of 'Mr.Steeles' Hollywood Military Hobbies pieces?

* Richard, Your letter from Souval, do they say they made a badge simliar to this, or exactly like this and it being one of theirs?. What is that marking on the pin? and are there any other markings on the back?

There are also the stories about an English master jeweler counterfeiter Barry Wittmond that supposedly made excellent looking diamond badges and other high ends like the 44 wound badge,,maybe this is one of his pieces?

Could be that you'll never know 100%,,know you'll keep trying though! ,G.

quote:

Originally posted by Gaspare:

* Richard, Your letter from Souval, do they say they made a badge simliar to this, or exactly like this and it being one of theirs?. What is that marking on the pin? and are there any other markings on the back?
G.

Hi"G"... thanks for posting.

In the Souval communications to me there is no reference made using the words "Copy", "Similar", "Exact" or "Exactly". They do indicate to producing it in their company.

The marking stamped on the pin is 800. and the specimen is void of any other markings.

I forgot to mention earlier that there was also an extremely bad version of this badge, once being offered by World War II Products Ltd. from St. Louis, MO. I don't recall if it was in their pocket book size catalog however, it was on a newspaper type sale offering.

I do have 35mm color slides of this badge and am hoping to locate them. Should I find them, I will have to have color prints made first, then will be able to scan and post them.

quote:

Originally posted by Gaspare:

There are also the stories about an English master jeweler counterfeiter Barry Wittmond that supposedly made excellent looking diamond badges and other high ends like the 44 wound badge,,maybe this is one of his pieces?,G.

G... I wonder if there's a connection as I understand that similar ones are being sold through a Canadian dealer? Would anyone happen to know the dealers name? Also, if there's a website?

SOUVAL LETTERS

FIRST LETTER

SECOND LETTER

Here are the four photos that were sent to me in the early 90's by Christopher Ailsby. After I copied the photographs, the originals were returned to him. His claim was that these were the beginning of my specimen. In my opinion, the doubts of this are overwhelming, considering the rediculous over marking on the pin and considering that the stones have been glued and not jeweler set. Also, if I am again correct, the amount of stones will vary in the Souval Copies.

I belive the ones in the photos were in fact the beginning of the 1960's postwar Souval ones, after they rediscovered the original dies from the earlier period, which may have been near the war's end and never put into actual production for special presrntations to PILOTS, as previously stated.

You be the judge.

My apology for the typos in the above posting. My keyboard keys stick and I type quickly. Just didn't catch them.

DETAIL OF PIN MARKINGS

Thanks for posting the photos and letters..
Well, those photos strongly, if not exactly match yours.
You mention yours only has one content stamp on the pin,, is finished better, and stones set professionally. It could just be the original buyer paid a little extra for a better quality piece from Souval..

A late war prototype, never put into production? Possible? A possiblity I guess.. Its nice quality, solid silver, gold plated with real sapphires. It has value. Even though you might never be able to prove it wartime , you already own it, its a nice piece, as long as your happy with it thats all that counts....G.

quote:

Originally posted by Gaspare:
Thanks for posting the photos and letters..
Well, those photos strongly, if not exactly match yours.
You mention yours only has one content stamp on the pin,, is finished better, and stones set professionally. It could just be the original buyer paid a little extra for a better quality piece from Souval..

A late war prototype, never put into production? Possible? A possiblity I guess.. Its nice quality, solid silver, gold plated with real sapphires. It has value. Even though you might never be able to prove it wartime , you already own it, its a nice piece, as long as your happy with it thats all that counts....G.

My reasoning seems logical:

Point 1... Superior quality when compared to the Souval copies of the 60's. Or, any other copies.

Point 2... One cannot believe that Souval's record keeping to be that inaccurate?

Point 3... A single marking on the pin is more logical, as opposed to the myriad of markings on the Souval copies.

Point 4... No one has been able to produce any additional photographs of the Souval copies?

Point 5... Period case, obvious from it's construction and not a postwar produced item of the 60's.

Point 6... Silver base metal, gilding, sapphiers and setting jeweler verbal confirmation.

Point 7... The most obvious point ... My specimen exists!

Point 8... With reference to the above four, alleged, photographs of Souval's starting point, someone has yet to take "ownership" as to that fact?

Final point... It has yet to be proven otherwise and, if I'm a "Beggar", as had been implied, then I'm certainly ridding!

quote:

Originally posted by Christopher J Ailsby:
IN REPLY, I THINK RICHARD DID NOT PAY VERY MUCH FOR THE PIECE. I WAS PRIVALIGED TO MEET THE SELLER AT THE MAUL WERE HE BOUGHT THE PIECE. In conersation with "Lou" he made it abundantly clear that he did not believe it was original. This happened in 1992 when Richard took me with my partner Lynn accompanied by his friend John.
MAYBE NOW THIS CAN BE PUT TO REST.

The above scenario is a complete fabrication of the truth. Mr. Ailsby and his then wife Lynn visited the "flea market" one day, unaccompanied, where my good friend Lou operated a permanent militaria shop -- L.B. Military. When I had asked Lou about this his reply was that it was never said. Lou had always been a truthful person during the many years that I had known him. My good friend has since passed on, as has my family friend John.

To go full circle on this, back in 1988 when I had traded Lou for this piece, the asking price was $2,000.00 based on his long experience and the assessment of others he had contacted. At that time I had a fair variety of T.R. militaria, my cash investment in these items was approximately $500.00 with a then retail value of about $3,000.00. Lou agreed to the trade.

Now for you do a bit of calculating... Based on and average increase in value of 10% per year, which may be in the moderate range for T.R. militaria, what numbers would a logical person arrive at?

Considering the number that Souval stated back in 1996 for a "copy", cost to produce one, do the same increase calculation and then convert the DM's to U.S. dollars?

My intent is to never offer this for sale as my family wishes to keep it, for many reasons some, recently uncovered. My doubts that this will ever be put to rest are not forthcoming in the immediate future as, there are still questions to be answered and I believe information to yet be uncovered. In my opinion, simply another mystery of the T.R. Period ... one of many!

For anyone interested, the shop still exists however, under different ownership. It's located in the Rt.18 Market in East Brunswick, NJ. Nice young man operates it. It's open from noon on Friday thru Sunday.