UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum SS Sturmguschutz Wrap, please look..

Nice to see we can talk about ss tunics again
My question on the ss assault wraps was it the normal practice to have cuff titles on the wraps or just up to the individual or regiment to supply them?

Joe Semen

Cufftitles were for the division or regiment. Hohenstaufen being a particularly rare one to find still attached to a tunic.

Moth holes threadbare spots,stains all make a piece more interesting in my opinion.Mint condition combat items worry me, you dont know when and where the pieces came together. Some survived I am certain but not many.Nice looking wrapper.

Field grey wrappers were worn by divisional units - specifically the reconnaissance, assault gun and self-propelled artillery battalions in panzer and panzer-grenadier divisions. By definition, any field grey (or black panzer wrapper with the exception of "Hermann von Salza") with a regimental cufftitle is suspect.

Mike

Mike could you explain a little more on why they would be? I have a tendency to agree with that. I personally have never seen a Hohenstaufen or Frundsberg cufftitle on any tunic even ones attributed to the units which is why I say it has to be very rare to find one.But they were both Panzer divisions.I have been hunting for a book with more detail on both divisions.

I have seen photos of men with Der Fuhrer cufftitles on thier wrappers however they were among others with the Das Reich cufftitle, thus attached to the divisions Sturmgeschutz battalion.

Hi John,

In many armies there is a clear distinction between divisional units (i.e. those units that are "direct reports" to the divisional HQ and which support the fighting regiments/brigades) and the formations underneath. For example, in 1944, within the 2nd W-SS Panzer Division 'Das Reich', you have two panzer-grenadier regiments (with pre-war SS-VT lineage): Deutschland and Der Fuhrer. However the panzer regiment (incl 1st and 2nd battalions) and the divisional abteilung (separate battalions) such as the anti-tank, signals, reconnaisance, engineer, etc, etc would all wear the divisional insignia. In essence, if you were in a division, you wore that cufftitle - less a few, very specific exceptions. I know of NO units authorized to wear the field grey wrapper that were not divisional units. This being said - there are numerous pictures of senior W-SS officers wearing field grey wrappers to which they were obviously not entitled. However, I would be concerned to find, for example, a Michael Grassmair CT on a rottenfuhrer assault gun wrapper.

As for the Frundsberg and Hohenstaufen Divisions, every unit in these divisions - infantry, panzer and so on - would have worn a divisional cufftitle.

For a good history, see Fedorowicz Publishers - the title is something along the lines of: "In the Firestorm of the Last Years of the War". This provides a history of these two remarkable divisions.

All the best,

Mike

Thanks for the info.
That helps me out alot.

Joe Semen

Thanks Mike,excellent info. Alot of collectors dont bother to learn these details before they buy.The Der Fuhrer had a Recon component attached and an Artillery.Im always interested in peoples views on what color piping was used for say a recon component of an infantry regiment and did they wear that regiments cuffband or the divisions? For instance KC winner Hans Weiss was transfered from recon to Panzer but continued to wear his "a" cyphers as can be seen in pictures.Info like this helps to solve mysteries about some tunics that survived.

Assoro(Mike)...you started off on the right track...but went spiraling off.It even seemed like you bounced back on at some point."Divisional Unit"...what the h+++ is that?Divisions are made up of Regiments.Regiments were awarded Honor Titles...only the members of those Regiments were entitled to wear those specific Honor Titles on their sleeve.Therefore ..a good example as you stated would be 2nd SS Div.Initially only members of the 3rd and 4th PG Regiments would be intitled to CTs in that division.The 2nd SS artillerie Regiment wore none.However after 42 the 2nd Art. Reg. was entitled to the "Das Reich" cufftitle.Now....since the Regiments of 9th SS Div. bore no Honor Titles....all members of the Div. could wear "Hohenstaufen"...including SS art.Reg. 9.There were no div.s of assault guns."Herman von Salza" was an Abteilung(smaller than Reg?)of 11th SS Div.As the Art.Reg. of the same div. had no title....they were allowed to wear the Divisional title "Nordland".A little long winded ...but basiclly I am saying a stug wrapper with an "Hohenstaufen" CT is completely in order as would be a "Frundeberg","Hitlerjugend" and so on.You are correct in that a "Michael Gassmir" would be out of order on a stug wrapp....."Michael Gassmir" was a Gebirgsjager Reg....not an Art. Rgt.

A good example that just came to mind would be 8th SS Div.8th SS "Florian Geyer" was a Cavalry Div....however as it contained a PnzJgr Abt.(which bore no Honor Title) it would be entirely plausible to find a stug wrapp adorned with the "Florian Geyer" CT.

gentlemen,
these last seven responses had been a very educational experience, great reading, and knowledge, gos to show, read the books.......ugh, more books to buy lol
i could only wish to have that knowledge!
i think i will stick to daggers!

Mike after rereading your post I see that you never went off track...I simply got confused...at first I thought you were saying it "suspect" to find a Hohenstaufen cufftitle on a stug wrapp.Now I see you said just the opposite.I see now in my post I only restated the point you were making.

With all due respect Brian,

Your reaction on the thumbs down of this jacket by experienced members like John Pic is something I don't understand... You ask the opinion of the experienced and when they don't like what they see you, as a beginning collector, start an arguement about their abillity of judging this jacket...

Well, if you are convinced this is real, do buy it!!! But please don't ever try to sell it to me...

Kind regards,
Gerd V

I wonder who Brian really is?

Hi John and Dave,

There are always nuances and exceptions - and much depends on the period of the war as regulations and structures did evolve. On reflection, my dictum above is not exactly correct - in W-SS panzer divisions, there were two panzer grenadier regiments each of which had three infantry battalions. Only one of these six battalions was truly "armoured" (mounted on the Sd Kfz 251 half-track). In the regiment that had this battalion (and only this regiment), you also had a platoon of 6 self-propelled 150mm howitzers called "Grille") - and these personnel would have been entitled to wear the field grey wrapper. The only panzer grenadier regiments that wore specific regimental honour titles and which had the Grille platoon were Der Fuhrer (2d Panzer Division DR); Theoder Eicke (3d Panzer Division TK); Germania (5th Panzer Division Wiking). So -it is remotely possible to find field grey wrappers with those specific titles on them (they were also popular among the troops of the half-track battalions as well). All other field grey wrappers should use divisional CTs -a lthough there are always strange exceptions.

My point is that one of the first things you should consider when looking at a W-SS uniform is the combination of rank and insignia. Does it "fit" for that period of time - hence my example of a mountain troops regimental cufftitle on an assault gun wrapper (or a Hermann von Salza CT on a mountain troops windbreaker).

Dave - in German military terminology an abteilung denotes an independent unit, of about battalion size, such as a divisional assault gun battalion eg. SS-Sturmgeschutz Abteilung 12 (Hitlerjugend). The term battalion describes a battalion found within a regiment eg III Battalion (Gep.), SS-Panzer Grenadier Regiment 26 (Hitlerjugend).

Sorry for the long winded response...

Mike

Hi John,

In response to your absolutely valid point on recon units in regiments and so on - I understand that the regulations were that the piping worn by these elements should have been the white of the panzer grenadiers (they were integral companies and platoons in PG regiments). That however would have made things too bloody easy for collectors - and from what I can see, many officers and senior NCOs wore what ever they wanted, often retaining the insignia of units from which they had been posted.

Mike

Thanks Mike, Lately I have been searching the books for evidence of color piped boards on officers of the different units.

What I am thinking is that recon elements of a PG regiment were drawn from the trained recon battalion of the division,thus would retain thier color piped boards.If they were attached before the Das Reich title was awarded they would be entitled to wear the DF or Deutschland title.
Or visa versa if they went from one of those regiments to the recon battalion they would switch piping color.I dont know if we will ever really know how it worked but Im thinking it explains some color piped tunics with regimental titles attached.These tunics however, as you say must be viewed with extreme skepticism and looked at very closely.

Great reading here. Thanks all. Brian the critisism has been constructive, not personal. If you truley intend to grow as a collector, it would be wise to invest in books, and continue to ask the questions before sinking the dollars. I still ask for help ALL the time. As a new collector, it's important that you don't trust in just one source. I've seen new collectors taken for a ride that way...These forums are the most amazing source. You have literally thousands of years of experience here to draw from...

You've had impressive input here from a collector who'se studied sleeve eagles for 40 years. Another who has studied the look of natural wear and aging, another who knows division insignia. It would take some large library to get all that out of just books...