UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum Mintish SA

Herr Vogel. I lost a bet with myself. I was certain you could made one up by now to show us .

Dave

Herr Hohaus: Actually the oval ones are easier to make. I used to buy the clips from Johnson or anyone who had any and then made the entire hanger. Furthermore, the oval ones don't require any explanations.

Hello all,

I am posting the following at Tom Johnson's request:

"Dear Ross:

Thank you for your returned email of 26 January. I just had a look at the color scans of the SA dagger hanger with horizontal buckles, and I can tell you that I not only believe this hanger to be original, but also a quite rare SA hanger. The SA used a variety of different dagger hangers. I will take a look at my website and/or printed sales list, and if I have some SA hangers available, I will be willing to trade you two of the oval buckle hangers for this one rectangular buckle hanger. I noticed that Ron Weinand, who has been around this hobby for decades, and some other members of the forum are also familiar with square buckles on both SA and SS hangers. It is somewhat irritating for newcomers to absolutely condemn an item (on the internet for others to read) as being a post-war reproduction when the statement is made due to a lack of experience. Thankfully, there are a few "old-timers" around to set the record straight! Let me know, Ross, if you would like to go forward with the trade, a two-for-one……We sell literally hundreds of German daggers each and every year, and have a return ratio that is practically non-existent. Incidentally, have a look on the same SA/NSKK page of your forum, and pull up the thread entitled, "SA in-wear pic" by Vic Diehl. Take a good read of it, Ross, because here is an SA hanger that some members of the collector community condemned as a reproduction for years only to find out that it is absolutely correct. Variations existed from the numerous accouterment manufacturing firms, as evidenced by this and other "in-wear" photographs that prove their existence. All the best and I look forward to your reply.

TMJ, President of JRB&M"


Best,
Skip

Just for the heck of it after this thread appeared; I went through my modest collection of SA daggers and studied the hangers. I guess it had never dawned on me before but from what I can see there is considerable variance in the shapes and sizes of the buckles. No I don't have a square one like the one pictured here.
Hopefully someone like Kingtiger of Dr Mike with more extensive collections will do the same with theirs.
Here's two examples from my collection. Notice how more elongated the example is on the left when compared with the example on the right.
Jim

I've looked through my SAs and found no rectangulars. I dont believe I've ever seen one. Yes there are minor differences in the hanger buckles-the lengths can vary by as much as 1/8 of an inch (although the widths seem standard). The clips can vary as we all know-the short snouted nickel silver ones more commonly seen on early SAs are prime examples.Of course the length of the leather varies greatly also.Mike

Jim, the crossguard on the above SA is on backwards, turn it around. Mike

I know Mike but that's the way I got it and I've been reluctant to disassemble the piece.

I measured the two examples above:
Left example: L=33MM W=21MM
Right Example: L=31MM W=21MM

As you can see the left example is 2MM longer than the right giving it a more elongated appearance.
Jim

In my humbleness i have learned something new, Tom and Ron thanks for setting me stright. As a fairly new collector i can only refer to the books at hand and i never came across this topic in any of the reference books. I have not and most likely will never handle as many daggers as T.J. or R.W., i can only dream i will have the chance to do so. I hope T.W. covers this in his new book for all to learn.

Ross it is plausible the leather hanger was period replaced considering how much these daggers were worn and the constant swinging of the dagger, after all it is only a strip of leather. Just a thought, considering the times, cost of a dagger and the small price of the hanger it would have been replaced once the leather started to show wear and i'm sure some of the Sa members would go to a supply store, supplier etc. and buy one or a half dozen or so at a time.
I think you made a wise decision to hold onto the rare hanger.

Great thread, all of us new and seasoned collectors have learned something here.

Eric

Hey Jim: Wile you're at it fixing that hanger you might consider turning around that lower crossguard. The gaumark orta be in the back.

Jim: Forgot to mention, that hangerclip is on there the wrong way.

Hi Eric

Those were my thoughts exactly regarding the leather being changed. Judging by how well the original owner looked after this one he would have changed the leather and possibly used the original buckle since it was different to most others out there.


Ross

Manfred:
Already noted above in my reply to Dr. Mike. I left it that way because:
*That's the way I bought it out of the woodwork
so I left it alone:
*If everything posted here was perfect no one would have anything to say!
*All of the above.

I guess I really should have posted pictures of the vet purchase sabre I bought awhile back with a shooting lanyard attached to the scabbard ring. The vet insisted the lanyard was a "hanger" so I didn't argue with him about it.

On a serious note: I had an SS hangers leather literally disintegrate in my hands awhile ago so I basically try to just leave them alone.
Jim

Here are three leather covered politicals. Two of them are NSKK, the third is a Naval SA. The strange thing is that the NSKKs have the scabbard fittings over the leather. The SA has the leather cut net to the fittings.

OOps, Forgot the picture

Sweet looking Daggers you have their.

Though uncommon, and confirmed by others, they did make and use this type of hanger. I have has maybe three over the years.

Gailen David

I talked with Gailen yesterday afternoon and encouraged him to post this.

My sincere apologies to everyone including Ross, Tom Johnson and JRB&M for misleading you. I was wrong to say that the hanger was a fake based on the shape.

I have since talked to another person who says he has seen them as well. I don't know if he will post or not.

The most interesting thing, apart from finding out that is another type of hanger out there is that Gailen and my other contact have different views about the materials. Gailen told me that he remembers the ones he saw as being later production made with steel buckles and marked leather while the other gent remembers only nickel-silver buckles and snaps with unmarked leather.

Again, my apologies,
Dave

Dave: You would have had to be doing this of along time to know of this hangers exsistance. In 40 years I have only owned three.

Even when I had one of these hangers I always did a double take.

Gailen David

quote:

Originally posted by mvogel:
Here are three leather covered politicals. Two of them are NSKK, the third is a Naval SA. The strange thing is that the NSKKs have the scabbard fittings over the leather. The SA has the leather cut net to the fittings.

Manfred... any chance you could show more of the 3rd dagger along? I have one very similar and there's not much information on these. Cheers, Scott

I am still surprised to hear of this as it was apparently not a unique item.

One can find early SS and SA hangers that are probably unique but these are usually based on the use of available hardware. Like the attached photo.

Then there are some early ones seem to have been made in the same pattern as others, but with variant parts - like the one in Vic's picture on the first page of this thread or my SS vertical on the first page. They both use what the British collectors call "Dog Lead Clips".

Here is the back of that one. Familiar shape and hardware but totally different construction.

My guess is that it was probably made using the buckle and snap from original short hanger.

Then there are some that seem to have been made in numbers and even had a pattent applied for. Here is one, like the "dog lead clip" one, that I heard of for many years, but not seen or found. In a short time, I found two:

These hangers can function as vertival hangers - as seen above - or be reconfigured so the dagger hangs on a slant.

Gailen actually sold me a very similar hanger attached to an SS dagger. It looks the same, but cannot be reconfigured to carry the dagger at a slant.

My point is that apart from the unique stuff or the fakes, most of the hangers that were made in any quantity are known to exists.

I was unaware of the rectangular buckles on one-piece hangers, so again my apologies to all for misleading you.

Now, everyone look through their goodies again and see if you have one.

Dave

I collected early vertical hangers for many years. I no longer do and have long since sold them all. Until these hangers were standized in 1934 the political guys use to have them made up since they got tired of the dagger banging into everything.I had fourty to fifty different designs.Don't see many of them anymore.

Gailen David

Also if you have any of these hangers there a few guys who collect the different ones. I believe Dave is one such collector. So if you have an unusual one you might be able to really stick it to him. Ha! Ha!

Gailen David

I got a few of Gailen's SS ones.

Dave

Herr Hohaus: Considering dthe variations in style and fabrication it is obvious that many of these hangers were made in little cobbler shops drather than in larger fabrication outlets who would have paid close attention to kuniformity and style and regulations if there were any. So, how would you know if all of those hangers were made period. You obviously can't make a determination by style and conformity to regulations. All you can do is judge by the age of the leather which would be pretty subjective.

I have made several of these hangers for collector friends using original hardware and old leather from women handbags available at Goodwill stores. In most cases it was done to replace an original hanger destroyed by the dryrot.

Hi Dave

We have all learnt things here and I have nothing but respect for people who are prepared to admit they were wrong.

No problem Dave.

Cheers

Ross

PS

If you get to NZ again look me up for a beer.

sdp: I have posted the picture with the three daggers inadvertantly in the wrong topic, so I reposted it again under the leather scabbard thread.

Ross,

I will let you know ... but it is not too likely.

I visited NZ for two weeks in 1976 and saw a lot of the South Island. Stayed at Mt.Cook - the Hermitage and visited the big hydro project under construction at the time. Then again in 1996 and again visited only the South Island. Last Kiwi beer I had was in the Biggles Bar in the Auckland Airport.

Dave

Sure would like to go there.

Gailen

Hi Ross ,please post some more pics of your dagger collection are they all in as nice condition as this one ?

Gailen,

It is not that expensive to fly, but you got to love airplanes as it is a little over 13 hours from San Fransisco to Auckland.

Dave

Add 7 hour from Florida and that's a big 20 hours fight. Getting to old for that.

Gailen

Hi everyone.

Your all most welcome to get in touch if you brave the long flight. Will do a mass photo of my knives. Have just got the basic ones but a few are quite good.Posted my favourite SAs on wehrmacht-awards on the thread about showing your SA daggers. Same name Tsuba.

Have to go to town so will do laiter.

Ross

I too think it's a nice Dagger.Dutchman.