UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories Helmet Forum Helmet return issue

This is an intersting ethical issue, and since it involved a helmet I thought I would bring it up here.

A guy I know bought an SS helmet from a dealer about 15 years ago for $500. The guy now went to sell the helmet (to me) but sadly it turns out to be a high end repro. The guy returns it to the dealer (who didn't know), who pays him the current value of the helmet ($2,000-3,000)

while I give kudos to the dealer, I think this practice is certainly not the norm. I think the dealer got screwed in the deal, but then I was wonder what would be fair? I think returning the original $500 would not be fair to the buyer, but the full boat price isn't right for the dealer either. I think maybe the $500 + the "time value of money", But I am curious as to what do you guys think?

There are a lot of pieces that were sold "guaranteed" years ago as real that wouldn't pass the scientific screening process needed today.

Interesting Question. First off Major Kudo's to the dealer.Thats a man i would buy from for sure.I think fair would be what the dealer would give for a good one (for resale) in the condition that the repro helmet is in now.lol, just reread what i wrote and its not real clear what i mean (lol, makes sense to me). Example if the helmet (repro one) is in excellent condition when he gets it back he should pay the guy back what he would give for a real one in excellent condtion, as if he was buying it to resale.

Interesting story, Jerry. Could it be that the helmet was, in fact, a good one and the dealer was buying it back at below current market? That's the skeptic in me talking. If all was as you say, the dealer was more than fair. Were I him, I would have offered the original price plus interest. In any case, standing behind one's goods is an important concept and one that is not encountered often enough these days. I would surely like to know who this dealer is......
Cheers
-Mike

I have a similar experience. I bought my first SS helmet from a dealer here in US, and found out 1-2 years later that it was a repro. I went back to the dealer and instead of disclosing my finds, offered him to buy it back from me before I would check with other dealers. He promptly offered me more than what I paid for it. He definitely knew it was bad, and I believe he wanted to save his face by buying it back. I never had any bad concious about this. I would expect a dealer to stand behind his goods as long as he is in business as a dealer, and I would expect a dealer to buy back at market price ANYTHING he has sold as original.

Erik

The helmet was real enough, only the decal was bad

Seems to me as if one of the key aspects of this transaction is being missed - or is unknown - what is the dealer going to do with the returned helmet?

If this dealer is going to pony up the increasd bucks and then resell it again (as genuine) that is an entirely different situation than if he now offers the helmet as a reproduction or just quietly 'eats' the loss and chalks it up to experience and a cost of doing business.

If he does the latter then my hat's off to him. Asuming he sold the helmet innocently - and at this time there is no commentary that he is not innocent - then what he owes (I feel) is the original price plus like 10% per year.

Just my $.02 worth.

The only way that this would happen is if the dealer didn't know that the decal was bad; and if that is not the case and he knowingly handed over that amount for a bad SS helmet, please give me his name!

If it were me on either end of the deal what I would expect to happen is the cost of the helmet refunded, $500.

A not unreasonable position, Perry. However, were I the dealer and the helmet really was bad, I would try to give something over and above the sale price to account for inflation, and loss of possible interest. But then again, that is just my personal feeling ..
Cheers,
-Mike

Either the helmet was real or the returner is exagerating the story or the dealer was put under intense pressure (thumbscrews electric therapy on the lower regions) . Why didnt he just give back the $500 ,what dealer would pay $2000-$3000 for a fake SS helmet ,it doesnt make sense.Rob

No logic to the dealers stance.The best you could have hoped for was the $500 with a bit of inflation added on.15 years is a long time to have a fake sat on your shelf.Pete

I find it hard to believe that a helmet sits in a collection for 15 years and NO ONE tells the owner it is bad?? Is he a hermit and not allow anyone to see it??
I think 15 years is a little over the top. Some responsibility must rest with the buyer at some point. You all know my position on this. The buyer can question an item in a reasonable lenght of time, but he must assume ownership at some point.
If anyone ever questions an item or feels the need to address originality, do it within some time frame that would allow the dealer to approach his source and address any concerns himself. This would stop a lot of the passing on of reproductions and identify sources. I know that I don't like to be burned either!!!
JMO
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

I have always understood that an item that is represented as an original item by a professional dealer carries with it an implied warranty of being what it is represented to be. In this case, possibly the dealer ponied up that amount of money with the understanding that the collector is wrong and the item is an original helmet. This is the only possible explanation for paying that much back on what was a $500 helmet years ago.
It is seldom we hear about situations like this that result in a positive outcome.
Bob

A "Lifetime Warranty" is just that a lifetime warranty! There is no "reasonable length of time". A dealer shouldn't say it if they don't mean it. JohnJ

quote:

Originally posted by Ronald Weinand:
I find it hard to believe that a helmet sits in a collection for 15 years and NO ONE tells the owner it is bad?? Is he a hermit and not allow anyone to see it??
I think 15 years is a little over the top. Some responsibility must rest with the buyer at some point. You all know my position on this. The buyer can question an item in a reasonable lenght of time, but he must assume ownership at some point.
If anyone ever questions an item or feels the need to address originality, do it within some time frame that would allow the dealer to approach his source and address any concerns himself. This would stop a lot of the passing on of reproductions and identify sources. I know that I don't like to be burned either!!!
JMO
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Well items sold by dealers whom offer a liftime guarantee of autenticity hold themselves open for a return at any time, Ron. I don't see what the big deal is. Some people in this hobby pay top retail prices from dealers for the purpose of: A) Having a piece that is unquestionable and B) Not having the time or inclination to do their homework with regards to how to spot a fake. If a dealer advertises a liftime guarantee what do you purpose is a "reasonable length of time"? JMO.....RICK

For me the return isn't so much the issue as the price he gave back. Some things like SS helmets, SS Daggers, have spiked in recent years. Again I was really on the fence on this one as to what was "right" But I'd think the original $500 + a certain percentage to cover inflation. Since he is a dealer of high esteem, he's going to eat it. If I were the collector, I would not accept full retail back.

I agree with Jerry on the return of the helmet and with Rick on the lifetime guarantee.

Here are my feelings on this scenario. As a dealer who does give a lifetime guarantee I will honor my word until the day I die. To help safeguard myself from having to give a return on a bad item I feverishly research every item I have an ounce of question to. Better to prevent the problem before it ever happen!
Merry Christmas!
Bob

Sure Bob, I get that its easier now a days to find answers and sell "good" stuff, but 15 years ago things weren't so cut & dried. The issue isn't the refund itself, that is honored without question. but how much?

So what would you do if a helmet that passed scrutiny today eventualy it gets hashed out that is a repro. Say you sold a real SS helmet for $3,500 that in 2021 due to exact carbon dating is now found out to be a real decal on a real helmet applied in 1985 with elmers glue making the helmet bad. do you refund the now current 2021 value of $17,500?

Hey Jerry!
In my opinion I would return the amount it was sold for. The scenario mentioned above almost sounds as if the dealer feels it is original and bought it vs. giving a refund. However, that is just a guess on my end.
Merry Christmas!
Bob

I think this dealer is going over the top,he must feel it's a good item.In 15 years a lot of new info has come out ,I've posted a couple of things 100% right 15-20 yrs ago that are N.G. today.Sold to me by good guys.My only problem is some of the sellers I'd have to dig up out of the ground.So much for "life time guarantees " yours or mine

We're not talking about fifty or hundred dollar hobby collectibles now, we're talking about big money and big investment nowadays and sometimes that is just the reason for the purchase in the first place, that is investment not a hobby collectible. Besides I'm sure attorney fees in a civil suit would have been way more than what was or would be refunded in a case like this. Just a thought. JohnJ

In cases like this where the item is a "Nazi" relic, most lawyers wouldn't even want to be involved, regardless of the chances of winning. The amount of money, the time required and the stalls that would insue generally make a lawsuit like this impossible to see through to the end.
Most cases require 3 to 5 years and most people just won't be bothered to fight it out that long.
Several that I have been involved with that were settled were divorce or thefts. Originality is one that is next to impossible to win, especially at this amount level. The time involved, "expert witnesses" and the legal fees make it not worth the time. Court appearences, especially if you are out of state, will eat you alive.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

If I was a collector/investor spending big bucks on items for my collection, some items going for as much as five, twenty or even thirty thousand and over and an item turned out to be not as represented I wouldn't hesitate to go the extra mile and do whatever it took to make sure I was properly compensated no matter the time or money involved. Too many people in business today rely on people not having or not wanting to spend the time or money to get what is justly due them. This is a great hobby but like alot of other hobbies it is also a big money making business now. We're not talking about collecting old coins out of your spare change now. Take care, JohnJ

In a situation such as this getting anything back was a bonus regardless of the warranty, implied or otherwise. 15 years is one heck of a long period. The skeptics of human nature are all over this one but if true the collector certainly came out ahead. I know people that would eat it for $500.00. I am not one of them.Is the dealer known? Certainly no harm but rather good PR in disclosing his name. God knows that names of dealers who have committed wrongs have been revealed on this forum. cheers, Ryan S

If the story is true the dealer should be made a saint. Actually though the thing that scares me is the way everyone is so shocked or skeptical that the dealer came through this way in the first place! JohnJ

I've always wondered how the sellers are even going to know for sure down the line "ten or fifteen" years from the time of a sale when a problem arises if an item was one they sold for sure in the first place when they advertise the "guaranteed for life" warranty. JohnJ

I have often wondered the same thing....maybe they take many photos of the item and sellers name?

there is another problem here...and that is the interest that some would expect the dealer to pay...I believe the origianl sum mentioned was $500.00 and if a dealer refunded me that after 15years I would be tickled pink...to have met an honest dealer...the interest part? the dealer could ask the question? what kept you from finding out for that long...you had custody of the item...if you took 15year to verify its origianlity...whose fault was that? did you procrastinate so that you could charge me 15years of interest...so like in most transactions spread over time...the word interst is its "evil". Other than that I compliment the dealer for not questioning the piece or the origianl transaction long long ago. What would have happened if the dealer meanwhile had died? Would he have expected the widow to make good, or heaven forbid...pay interest. Just my two beers worth...Prosit...Roland.

Just for some of you who care and wonder: Yes, I do take photos of items and file them with the invoice and who purchased the item and keep them for a year (any longer and I would have to set up a file that would take up way too much space-this is why I would not guarantee an item for life).
Next, maybe you wonder why? I'll tell you.
First of all, I have had the buyer CLEAN THE ITEM AND RUIN SOME FINISHES.
Next, I have had pieces changed and still tried to have an item refunded.
Then I have had a different item returned for refund that was NOT the original sent.
Also, I have had a customer take an item(s), go to a couple of shows and try to sell my item(s) at a profit and, when they didn't sell (and received shop wear), try to return the item(s) for full refund (other dealers have spotted my customer and MY ITEM(S) at the show and called me).
Then I have had a customer remove a chinstrap and try to return a helmet.
The list goes on and on. So if this dealer refunded price plus on an item 15 years later, I would consider him foolish and unable to be sure it was the same one sold.
If he did and could recall the piece with that memory, he is in the wrong business and should be using that mind for something really worth more money.
So I don't believe the customer is always right as I have found the customer is sometimes a crook.
Been in that position and NOT done that.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

i think that any item sold as original with a life time guarantee and returned,if convincingly found to be a reproduction,returned whenever,,,should only be refunded the original purchase price,& no allowance made for interest that might have accrued had the purchaser put their money in a different investment,,,my 2c...robert

This very nice dealer is paying what would be the replacement cost,based upon current prices,for an original,it's that simple.Please review Equity theory!

Well, I have guaranteed every piece I have ever sold for the last 30 years to be original for life (mine, not the buyer's, so it's not binding on my heirs), and what that guarantee means to me is that I will give the buyer back the exact amount he paid me, but not the postage, provided the item is in the same condition as when it was bought. (In my case the guarantee remains academic, as I've never yet had a return.) I wouldn't even consider "interest" on the purchase price, however; I think that's absurd.