UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum 33rd Waffen Grenadier Division Charlemagne Title

Guys hi,

Can I ask your opinions on this Charlemagne title? Here are some images....

Thanks,

Davey

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The weave and the lettering are wrong on this one.

Thanks for replying Jerry, much appreciated.

Could you go into a bit more detail, if you don't mind, as I know very little on cuff titles.

If you could throw up some examples, in contrast, this would be great.

Many thanks and kind regards,

Davey

I guess the short answer is: "There is no short answer".

The BeVo style of embroidery came into being in 1943, so you will see certain units that had this type, while others you will not. Some units only exist in this type. The other styles are flatwire, "RZM", "Bevo-like" and hand embroidered. The hand embroidered are the most difficult to authenticate, due to the wide variety of styles. Flatwire on the other hand, was difficult to do, and to my knowledge, hasn't been reproduced convincingly.

Because the Bevo style was machine done, there are certain constancies with the letters, fonts serifs, etc. and the weave of the band itself.

Here is a known original Eicke cufftitle for comparison, and while some slight variances will exist between bands ( shape of Umlauts for example), there are certain traits that will be consistent: the weave of the back and the borders, the style of lettering, etc.

There are several great books on cuffbands out there:
Cloth insignia of the SS by angolia
SS Regalia by Robin Lumsten
German cuffbands by bender

Hi Jerry, many thanks for taking time to reply and for your insight. I've read a few of the threads on titles and some examples out there.

Do all copies look this good? If it is a copy it sure is very well made.

Oh well, in the bin it goes.

Thanks again,

Davey

Believe me its not a well made copy you have. There are far better ones out there. The black weave pattern on your cuff is a BIG RED flag here.

Hi Felix, thanks for replying and I hope you are well.

I believe you Felix, I have no reason to doubt you. Will you be so kind and post a few examples of far better ones? Your examples will be a valid asset as we can learn from them. A great advantage and education to us all.

Look forward to you examples Felix.

Kind regards,

Davey

Hello Davey

I am not a expert about thats kind of item, but he seems too New...

sebastien.

Davey,, Don't know how big of a response your going to get on the reproductions as most guys don't collect the fake ones!,,at least not on purpose anyway

Here's something you might find intersting.. This ad is over 10 years old.. They offered Bevo,,Embroidered,,Bullion,,and RZM machine embroidered titles.. They even offered the cloth RZM tags that could be attached to them!

Cuff title of the Charlemagne Division have never existed, pure fantasy !
It is the same with the so called Charlemagne collar tabs with the closed nordic wheel, also a pure fantasy.
One of the last surviving Charlemagne SS man died 2 years ago in Paris. His name was Henri Fenet and he has never, ever seen a Charlemagne cuff title or collar tab.

Fenet was also one of the last KC winner, being awarded to him in April 1945, for his participation in the fight of Berlin.
He fought till the last days and was caught by the Russian trying to escape to the West.

I've seen a photo of a man wearing the cross-wheel tab on the Axis History forum.

quote:

Originally posted by Askold:
I've seen a photo of a man wearing the cross-wheel tab on the Axis History forum.

I did too but NOT on a French SS or any other SS Division for that matter.
These have always been associated with the French Charlemagne Division and I should've explained better what I meant.

The most important thing is that there is absolutely NO photographic evidence that an SS man, has ever worned the close sunwheel collar tab.

"quilted weave" looks peculiar for sure.

meantime, I've heard a lot more than once that BEVO looms have been making insignia identical to the pre-1945 versions for at least 20 years.

I speak of looms either wartime made or new machines "revese engineereed" from a wartime model.

can anyone comment on these not-very-welcome rumors? without a friend in a police forensics lab, can anyone say "for sure" about any title?

quote:

Originally posted by Pat:
Cuff title of the Charlemagne Division have never existed, pure fantasy !
It is the same with the so called Charlemagne collar tabs with the closed nordic wheel, also a pure fantasy.
One of the last surviving Charlemagne SS man died 2 years ago in Paris. His name was Henri Fenet and he has never, ever seen a Charlemagne cuff title or collar tab.

Fenet was also one of the last KC winner, being awarded to him in April 1945, for his participation in the fight of Berlin.
He fought till the last days and was caught by the Russian trying to escape to the West.

Credible sources say that there is one Original uniform removed BeVo Charlemagne cuff title in a collection.

Credible sources say that there is one Original uniform removed BeVo Charlemagne cuff title in a collection.[/QUOTE]

Impossible, it never existed.
I have asked the same question over and over again for the past 6 years, where the proof ?

There is a forum in France on the Charlemagne Division and many of the members have actually met with former Charlemagne Waffen troops and none, have ever heard or see any bevo or collar tabs.
Christian de la Maziere, who just died couple of month ago, was a well known journalist in France and was also an ex-Waffen SS in the Charlemagne, he also wrote the famous book titled, "Le Rêveur Casqué" on his experience in the Charlemagne from Sept '44 till the end of April '45.
He was asked the same question and guess what ?
Yop, you've guessed it, no collar tabs or bevo.
I have tons of pictures of Waffen Charlemagne troops and none have any bevos or tabs.
I mean seriously, who are those so-called reliable sources ????? Hope it ain't a dealer trying to sell a Charlemagne bevo ?

It is 100% pure FANTASY.
If I'm wrong, well, show me the proof.
BTW' I would curious to know who's the credible source on that ?

Pat, I hope youre a member on WAF:
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t...ght=charlemagne+cuff

Bob Hritz and the man under the name Dr. Strangelove knows in whos collection the cuff is. Bob Coleman was the man who got it from the vets family in mid 60's. It seems to be quite well known that there atleast exists one original example.

Its kind of bold to say its pure fatasy just because it never reached the troops or maybe it was issued in a very small number.

Wouldnt mind seing a few of your photos though.

Best,
Felix

The only person that has ever seen a Charlemagne CT, is Bob Colemann in 1963.
He is the only credible source that everyone talks about and I do not doubts his words either.
All I'm saying is that 40 years ago, things were different and we didn't have the internet and all of the knowledge that we have today.
How can we be certain that it was real ?
No one has seen it among the thousands of pictures available on the web...............not a single CT pictured.

Felix, with all due respect, it may sounds bold to say that it is pure fantasy, but wouldn't it be even bolder to say that they existed without any evidence or proof ?
I'm sorry but I never buy the story, I only buy the artifact.

I know both Bob's and I do not doubt their words, I just doubt that 40 years ago we had the necessay knowledge to make a proper evaluation.

Its seems to me like more persons have seen it. Its obvious its in a collection today.
Ask Bob Hritz and you might find out more.

Felix, private e.mail sent.

Hi Chaps,

I hope you are all enjoying your Easter break, wherever you may be. This is quite an interesting discussion.

Felix, I don't agree with your comment that this is not a well made copy. If this be a bad copy then prove to us all that it is. Quite clearly, you have seen better and I ask of you that you produce or, direct us to such examples, out of sheer interest.

I could reply to every single post made here at GDC, every post made by fellow members of every item they own stating that it is a copy. If I was to post such replies, I'd better have good reason for doing so.

Kind regards,

Davey

Out of interest. Eugene's EKII award....

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1560913051/m/9500042345

PS - UV light tested.

Davey, here's what the proper pattern of a BEVO cufftitle looks like. This ones a "Reinhard Heydrich" but they will all show similar traits.

A little closer of the front.

Close up of the back.

Back side of the lettering.

Hi Raymond, very nice indeed and thanks for replying.

Were there only one maker of Bevo titles during this period? Would you also agree that it is a bad copy?

I've had this under the UV and there's one thing it doesn't do, and that's glow.

Copy or no copy, where do you believe it has come from, when was the last time anyone saw one like this example?

There were over 100 views on this thread before comment was passed. If it was a blatant copy, I would've expected intervention of a negative kind at an early stage.

Thanks again for replying.

Kind regards,

Davey

This is actually such a bad BLATANT copy that I am sure most people wouldn't waste their typing time on it.

The Charlemagne cufftitle posted is a stinker. NO GOOD, FAKE, garbage, 10000% REPRODUCTION of something that may not have even ever existed.

Bevo cuff titles are produced by a machine so the way they are done is exactly the same. This one is NOT LIKE ANY OF THE KNOWN GOOD ONES, Any of them! it is a completely made up piece. Even if it doesn't glow, it is still no good. It doesn't even look like the right material was used.

Try the burn test. Burn it & See if any SS collector tries to stop you...

You can wish all you want, but it is BAD. Sometimes the truth hurts.

I'm a novice when it comes to SS cloth. So I have to look in several reference books to double check myself but, a quick look at your cufftitle is all that's needed. The pattern of the band is a dead give away. Since BeVo is a company ,and a prolific one at that, collectors coined the term "BeVo" for there style of manufacture. There is also a BeVo-like. It's similar but different enough to tell the difference. Try to pick up the 2 books by Ulric of England titled "Collecting Third Reich SS & Political Cuffbands". These are great books with a great amount of info. I haven't studied these in great detail so I don't know when the repros first apeared,at least since the early 70's. They even used patterns of cufftitles for book marks.
Also remember, not everything repro will glow under a blacklight. It all depends on the material used. It glows because it has phosfates in it for whitening. No phosfates and it won't glow. An original item will glow if washed in moderen detergent because of the phosfates in it.
I hope you can get your money back on it.

Re-reading my previous post I seem to have come off a bit harsher than I intended to.

My comments should be taken in more of an exasperated tone than as belittling anyone.
We are all here to learn.

Davey,, Since your CT has Bevo on it rather than the blank 'Bevo Like' it should conform to what the other real Bevos look like.. This one doesn't.
That and the facts that only a few were made and never distributed [probably because of late war supply problems] are why everyone is saying this is a copy..

I know of good copies in the 1970's. There are old 'Collectors Guides' books from the early 1960s showing fake insignia as authentic etc. Many know 1st hand of even earlier good copies..

Here's my favorite book mark!

THE CHARLEMAGNE TITLE I TURNED UP IN EITHER 1963 OR 64 WAS FOUND AMONG MANY ITEMS SHIPPED HOME BY A VET TO HIS HOME. UNFORTUNATELY, HE WAS KILLED IN AN TRUCK ACCIDENT WHILE ON OCCUPATION DUTY. THE LOT HAD NOT BEEN TOUCHED SINCE HE SHIPPED IT BACK. I SEEM TO REMEMBER IT BEING HAND EMBROIDERED. HOWEVER, THAT WAS A LONG TIME AGO SO IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN BEVO. WHAT I DO KNOW IS THAT IT WAS REAL AND HAD BEEN ON A UNIFORM. POSSIBLY, THE CADRE OF THE FORMATION WERE GIVEN CUFFTITLES FOR PUBLICITY PURPOSES. ANOTHER POSSIBIITY IS THAT THEY WERE GIVEN ONLY TO HEADQUARTERS STAFF. I AGREE THAT THEY WEE NOT ISSUED GENERALLY TO MEMBERS OF THE DIVISION.
I DO KNOW THAT AT LEAST ONE WAS MADE. UNFORTUNATELY, THE SOURCE OF THE TITLE DIED WITH THE VET.
BOB

There is only one known bevo charlemagne cufftitle in a collection today. it is a well known and advanced collection. I have seen photos of it. I was told a story of how it was acquired but since it was second hand info i cannot be 100% sure as to its validity. But the cufftitle is real. Weather it was ever worn i cannot say. And just because past vets state they never seen one or had one on a tunic does not make it impossible that they were produced. We know of a lot of insignia that was produced but never worn. I suspect this may be the case. But in any event, it does exist.

Greg

IF ONLY I HAD KEPT MINE, TODAY, I COULD BUY A VERY NICE HIGH END CAR WITH THE PROCEEDS OF THE SALE. THAT IS, OF COURSE, IF ANYONE TODAY WOULD BELIEVE IT WAS REAL.
BOB