UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum Market gone Loopy?

On Ulric of England website,
RZM Eick for $6500!!!!
Seiler (Yank in UK)

surely that wont sell... the market is supply and demand...

keep your eye on it, if some clown does take it, i'm def' giving up.

If some clown takes it..I'm definitely selling out!

Mark

Surprised??? Whether or not it sells at that price is not as important as all of the advertising value that Ulric of England is getting! A very smart marketing ploy at the very least! It’s theirs and they ARE in THE biZZ!

Yeah the market has gone loopy... check out this auction that just ended. Not SS but the topic is pertinent:

http://cgi.ebay.com/WWII-GERMAN-BROWN-DAGGER-GEBR-HELLE...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Imagine what a nice Bertram Rein would go for then...

Also has a "Himmler" POR.That is his shorthand for expensive??
Seiler (Yank in UK)

Militarycollectiblesinc today: SS33 Klaas 6895 USD, SS33 Jacobs 8995 USD, SS36 with dedication engraving 13950 USD, SS36 9500 USD, SS33 EICKHORN early 5695 USD, SS33 Jacobs 8895 USD.
No comment any more.
Regards.

quote:

Originally posted by Seiler:
Also has a "Himmler" POR.That is his shorthand for expensive??
Seiler (Yank in UK)

Yep ....

Cos i asked.... but not as bad as i thought it would be....

Mark

It's amazing! Who are the buyers? Where are they? Those prices are off the charts. I don't begrudge a seller who can get that kind of money, but you sure don't see them selling for that kind of money in most places, including at well-known dealers. "Rohm's" and "Himmler's" being the exceptions.

How much was it out of interest?, I had no reply when asking.

Jon,

Sent you an email....

Mark

Wotan,my friend,many,if not all,these items have been there for months and months,if not years...Go figure.
Seiler (Yank in UK)

I believe the $6500 RZM has SOLD????
Seiler (Yank in UK)

i sold a perfectly respectable ground rohm eickhorn 33 on ebay just before christmas for $1500

on the other hand, some daggers in a nice condition and a fair price not selling in FOR SALE section on this forum. Go figure.

quote:

on the other hand, some daggers in a nice condition and a fair price not selling in FOR SALE section on this forum. Go figure.

I have noticed this as well, but in context, the good items at a fair price are picked up very quickly. Moreover, GDC is a conglomeration of somewhat "sophisticated" collectors. Those who are demanding $850 for a burned out SA dagger come away grim faced, hurt, and angry.

Speaking of prices, my brother-in-law is a retired cop from Upstate NY. He worked in narcotics for years, and now works for the Dept of Homeland Security.

He told me that many of the Russians and East Europeans buying militaria are using the venue to get rid of cash without attracting attention (money laundering). He told me Russian gangs and those associated with them are awash in cash (both USD and Euros) from drugs, pornography, prostitution (including underage little girls), and other wonderful activities.

It is a very tragic thing. I am not trying to single out Russians or any other group – but we can read the news. What he said is verified through any Google search.

I am not really selling right now but I notice that pieces with a few problems are not selling well.
That's a pretty good sign that things have slowed down. I think good m33 SS's, Chained SSs,
Chained NSKKs, HJ Leaders,Rails, Tenos and Gov and Dips, etc. will still command a high price
if condition is there.
I believe Armys, 2nd Lufts, well used HJs are bogging down. Remember too this hobby can be
somewhat seasonal and now is the time folks are getting ready to spend their money on vacations
after spending much of the winter indoors.

Ulric says about all you need to know. A good place to visit if you want to see what your collection might be worth some time in the future. Who in their right mind would really want to pay the rip-off prices? I don`t even bother to look there anymore; greed does not deserve patronage.

There are "society" dealers who really don't want to sell anything, they just want to show
eveyone what they have. You will find these people in virtually every type of collecting.
Trying to deal with them is a waste of time.

PS any dealer can mark stuff "Sold". In fact I think some of these "Loopy Sites" mark stuff sold when they post it. They delight in teasing people. I just saw an Assman Para badge on one site about three weeks ago for around 1100. I came back a week later and he had marked it up to 1800. He not only can keep it, but he can put it "Where the sun don't shine!"

quote:

PS any dealer can mark stuff "Sold". In fact I think some of these "Loopy Sites" mark stuff sold when they post it. They delight in teasing people.

Amen Gator.

Then "The Standard" is set.

(Everyone please bow).

The "market price" has been established. Don't you know that? The going price for a Land Customs Dagger is now $5,000. I said so. You want an SS? Well, well - that will cost you. You don't believe me?

I can't believe that a SS-RZM would sell for $6,500, unless it was bought by a Russian , because it was signed by Himmler. .
-wagner-

quote:

Speaking of prices, my brother-in-law is a retired cop from Upstate NY. He worked in narcotics for years, and now works for the Dept of Homeland Security.

He told me that many of the Russians and East Europeans buying militaria are using the venue to get rid of cash without attracting attention (money laundering). He told me Russian gangs and those associated with them are awash in cash (both USD and Euros) from drugs, pornography, prostitution (including underage little girls), and other wonderful activities.

It is a very tragic thing. I am not trying to single out Russians or any other group – but we can read the news. What he said is verified through any Google search.

I know some Russian Dealers, they buy a lot of cheap staff. Condition does not matter for them and they do resell them in Russia to collectors. Trying to make a few bucks. As far as so called Russian organizied crime and money laundering, the daggers are too small of the item to launder the money. I do not think that this is the case with them. Do not forget the weak dollar comparing to euro now. So the prices in US are still cheaper than in Europe. That is conserns everything from daggers to real estate. IMO

Russians are buying because they got cash nowadyas, well or at least some of them!

Why do you think they yearly luxury exhibition was held last time in Moscow? Because the rich guys love to spend money!

I think the maffia money from drugs and prostitution was more important 10 years ago. Today the oil and minerals along with arms are the best sectors of Russia leading to wealthy top guys!

Point well taken Felix. there is no middle class in Russia and as for wealthy, the price does not matter.

Interesting discussion. I have no idea what is going on with some of the prices mentioned above but as far as trends...
Are the Russians driving prices up. Darn right they are, but so is the rest of the world. Much of what we are seeing is a reflection of what the US$ is doing in relation to other currencies. I believe that not only the Russians but much of the former Eastern Block is becoming more "worldly" and buying internationally. Ask any dealer where they are shipping their product most will tell you exports are way up. All of that equals demand. Buying daggers in USA is a bargain. 2 months ago 2 Eastern Block buyers came over and purchased 100+ daggers from 3 major dealers, (that I know of) in a week. They are bringing these all home to sell for profit. Drug dealers? I think not, just business men. Look at the SOS, shoot there were times I felt like I was in Europe and English was not to be heard.

Been collecting for a year now and still waiting for the SS Dagger market to crash so I can buy my first one. Do you guys think its time to buy or wait for a market crash ?


RICHY

Buy..but make sure its worth buying..
Seiler (Yank in UK)

Yes, I was there at the SOS. The Russians were buying fistful of daggers. Low end items. Condition not real important, from what I observed. Just had to all be all there without being a real beater. But I believe these were the "low end" buyers. The high end buys from Paul and "Tom's" & ... ...
"Ohkay Meester,
Auh much eef I bye ALL SS daggers, for Kash??
I vire Kash to ure Svess Baank # - Ohkay??"

What happened to all the daggers that the Russians ended up after the war?
Were they all used for digging up potatoes at the dacha's?
-wagner-

Exactly, these guys from "the East" are into making money on militaria dealing, not drug dealing, and are probably collectors themselves.
One has to know something about that stuff, doesn't he? And you CAN make some money buying daggers of average condition in the US and selling them in Russia. People there are not so picky and don't care that much, as we do about crossgraining, patina or if the scabbard screws remain untouched. For real mafia (drugs, prostitiution etc.) things like S.A. daggers are something from totally different world and, excuse me, theories about washing money by buying daggers are quite naive. They have their own ways to do it, without involving the III Reich. Besides, come one, we don't live in 1980's anymore, when wages in the Eastern Block used to be something like $30 per month (not mention the freedom of travelling and internet).

[QUOTE] What happened to all the daggers that the Russians ended up after the war?
Were they all used for digging up potatoes at the dacha's?
-wagner-
Mostly denizified and destroyed. Americans brought much more. Russians could not because it was illegal to bring. Could wind up in GULAG for a SA dagger. Interestingly enough, it is still illegal to sell the daggers in Russia. You need some kind of special permits etc...
But some of the worlds best collections on German staff are now in Russia.

Thanks Oleg.
Well tell us how does that work?
It is still illegal to sell daggers in Russia?
But Russia has some of the best collections in the world??
And how are all these Russian buyers from Russia buying here and sending them back? Do they all have these "special" permits. Are they
"connected"?
-wagner-

I've seen personally a russian internet dagger forum with lots of buy/sell threads. Must be really risky then, if it's illegal

When I visited Russia last summer, I went to one of the collector shops in St. Petersburg and you cannot buy the edged weapon without a permit the sales man told me. From my understanding it is not difficult to obtain that permit. Same applies for hand guns. But it is much more difficult to obtain the permint to buy a gun.

I definitely agree with Paul (who I respect greatly) that the TR militaria market is driven by a low US currency on the world market.

But, I wish I knew what business these guys were in. As Wagner said:

quote:

The Russians were buying fistful of daggers. Low end items. Condition not real important, from what I observed. Just had to all be all there without being a real beater. But I believe these were the "low end" buyers. The high end buys from Paul and "Tom's" & ... ...
"Ohkay Meester,
Auh much eef I bye ALL SS daggers, for Kash??
I vire Kash to ure Svess Baank # - Ohkay??"

That's quite a bit of cash to be carrying around - even for the SOS show. And why would some of these buyers not be more picky about condition?

Poor condition daggers are cheaper. Those low end dealers do not care about condition at all.

Richy,

I been waiting since 1963 for SS dagger prices to crash.

Dave

I still believe that the subject of SS dagger pricing and future availability is a very calculatingly controlled farce that greatly suffers from falsified "hype" . . . when the "hype" dies, and the older collectors that have been hording them away for so many years do as well, I think we'll all finally see what we really keep kidding ourselves about . . .

Of course, only time will tell . . .

Brad

Kind of morbid there Brad, but OK lets see if there is any historical instance where what you presume has occured in the past. We have over 60 years in this hobby and there have been some of the biggest collectors who had passed away.
I'm in Los Angeles and I remember when some had said the same as you about "when Col. Stewart..
... or when Dr. Julius Milestone .. ... it will flood the market and prices will drop".
Well what happened when Robert Waitte left us?
Why didn't the market go down there? Is there anyone with a bigger or better collection than he had?
Let's just take a certain item. One that we can use as a litmus test. An item which is very rare and expensive. One that is only found in very advanced collections. An item ones never sees for sale and only rarely hears about. Then make
a lot of these items all of a sudden avaliable on the market. And then we can find out what happened to prices.
Robert Waitte had 11 (eleven) SS - Himmler Damascus Bithday degens. (they are in Wittmanns SS book, fold out section). They all came on the market! At around $125,000 or so apiece. They all SOLD.
Didn't collapse the market at all. Not only that
I don't think you can find one for sale today for less!! And how many could afford to buy one of these?
Do you think it would be different on SS daggers? Yes maybe if the collector had 10,000
of them. But a few hundred.. they would be gone
before you could say "jumpin jack flash".
-wagner-

Agree with Wagner. These items are not produced anymore and due the world becoming so small thanks to the internet there are more and more people who collect the daggers. I am one of them. Started collecting about three years ago thanks to E bay. If not for internet the chances of me collecting German daggers would be really slim, since I did not know anyone who would introduced me to the hobby. There are a lot of people like me. The demand is much higher every year. Look what happened to the MAX and SOS shows every year. Lots and Lots of people attend. So in my opinion, it is natural to expect price increase every year.