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#12018 12/01/2009 08:35 PM
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i like the dagger congrats..

#12019 12/13/2009 11:12 PM
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Guess who this is????

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#12020 12/14/2009 01:17 AM
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quote:
A Special dagger to be sure

I have seen alot of great photos of SS men posing with their wives and girlfriends but this one is the best. Out of all the darkness the SS represents it is neat to see a human side to these guys. By the way what are those papers in his Sleeve cuff?


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#12021 12/14/2009 05:59 PM
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Well that photo is Kuther with a wine glass taken in 1951, I have never put so much effort into getting a photo. To keep it short I found 13 addresses of Kuthers in Berlin & sent a letter to all. His son Wolfram Kuther replied! His letter basicaly asked about my intentions & wanted proof of ID. I worked out that even to get a reply would indicate he had no idea of what his father realy did in the war. To gain his confidence I sent him a copy of my driving licence & one of the UNDERSIDE of the dagger, showing his father's name. This did the job & he sent me 2 E-mails, 1 with what little he knew of his father & the other with the photo. Basicaly Erwin Kuther survived the war, did not get caught & punished for anything (all that time in the SD & Sipo paid off!). He may have used the false ID given to active Werewolf members just after the war but he certainly used his proper name for the rest of his life, in West Germany. He died in Boblingen, Stuttgart on 01/02/1971, whilst living with his second wife. Hopefuly I can get someone to put Wolfram's letters on the website, otherwise if your interested contact me & I will Email them.

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#12022 12/14/2009 07:44 PM
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Posting the letters for Sharpe.

Well done on your efforts, you've been really persistent, nice to see it pay off like this. Congrats!

Red

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Letter1
#12023 12/14/2009 07:45 PM
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Letter 2

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Letter2
#12024 12/14/2009 07:46 PM
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Letter 3

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Letter 3
#12025 12/14/2009 09:06 PM
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Thanks to Red Baron for the photos I think the scanner I used at work is destined for the scrap bin! Anyway if you know German & can read letter 3, you will see that Wofram says he never met his father in person but he does know he was in the SS. He is probably trying to distance himself from his father, because after the war in Germany people were encouraged to hide & feel ashamed of the past, I think this still goes on today & he is living proof of it. To answer Siegfried B's question I have no idea what's in the mans sleeve, all I know is that the photo was taken in Lublin, Poland & the date February/1942 is written on the back. It came from the Wiesentahl centre in Israel, passed to Martin of www.ArchiveMilitaria.com (because they could not see the front of the man's face) & then to me. As far as I know he was not named but is described as an SD senior NCO.

#12026 12/15/2009 10:56 PM
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I have to make acorrection, the photo of the SD man & his girlfriend did come from Israel, but from a private collection & not the Wiesentahl centre's archive library.

#12027 12/20/2009 09:40 PM
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I would like to add a portepee to this dagger as Kuther according to his records, became Obersturmfuhrer der Waffen ss on 01/03/1940 & so he should have had a portepee around the handle. In the unlikely event that anyone has an original ss DAGGER portepee, can you let us know. On the research side of this dagger, I followed up the son's lead of Kuther's second family in Stuttgart & found 2 Kuthers still living there. I have sent letters to both this week & maybe I will be lucky. If one of these is his offspring, they would have grown up to at least late teenage level with him around & have a better insight as well as photographs of him. I am sure this second family put his dagger, maybe his ring & sword onto the market, if the last 2 survived the war.

#12028 01/03/2010 12:48 AM
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Today I recieved an email from Wolram Kuther saying that he wants me to email him a copy of his father's SS service records. I was going to scan the records that I have & then it was pointed out to me that they would probably give the son a heart attack if he found out what his father had done in the war. Anyone who has followed this thread will know Erwin Kuther's history & what a great help his son Wolfram has been to me, so I do not want to ignore his request. If anyone has any advice on how to handle this dilema I could certainly do with it!

#12029 01/03/2010 07:15 PM
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Well, it is not easy problem to solve. Interesting fact is that Küther wasn't recognised as war criminal (he used his proper name for the rest of his life in West Germany), so there is some hope that he wasn't involved personally in any atrocities and maybe it will reduce the guy's shock.

#12030 01/03/2010 08:57 PM
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Perhaps he could claim ownership then..? Wonder why the inscription is twords him. Narcisist perhaps. SD and following orders , doubt that. Sharpe I would run and claim dillusional collector.

#12031 01/03/2010 09:41 PM
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I do not think Wolfram would claim ownership of anything of his father's when he finds out what he was involved in. More likely to change his name.

#12032 01/03/2010 11:02 PM
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There is a curiosity with the unknown. There are many children wanting to know there parents they have never seen or havent seen for many years. A perfect example would be the commandant leader of Plaszow work camp ( Amon Goethe)a very real character. His daughter finally found out about his past, she was quite saddened but relieved to close a long unanswered chapter in her life. I would say be very sensitive to Kuthers sons wishes. If it was happening to me, secretly I would want to know about my fathers past. I would grant his sons wish but I would be extremely discreet about it. I hope this helps. Best to you Sharpe, you have a great wall of support from this community. Best regards Larry


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#12033 01/04/2010 03:17 PM
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Interesting thread. It is a "K", not a "R" (see the attached pic of the official font in Germany from 1935 until 1945). The font is called the "Deutsche Verkehrsschrift" (not sure how to translate this, but maybe "German Intercourse Font" comes close to it). The government decided 1934 that this script shall be taught at all schools as as of 1935. This font is not the same like the one of the inscription, but I think one can see that it is a K not a R.

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#12034 01/05/2010 11:08 PM
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Hello ivbaust,

Your response, and presentation of the alphabet script, is very informative and illuminating - but please permit me to offer a minor correction.

In English the correct interpretation for
"Deutsche Verkehrsschrift" is - "German communication script". The concept of it being a "German Intercourse script" unfortunately has a rather ribald (lustern) interpretation.

I hope that you will accept my correction to this definition, and to do so in the good humour with which it is being offered.

FJS

#12035 01/05/2010 11:21 PM
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Hello Sharp,
What a great dagger and great investigation.

On what to tell the man's son??

Send the man the information on his father.

It seems much of the world is going on some new philosophy where people who think they know what is better for other people have the right to withhold information from them.

This is not a comment towards you Sharp. Just something to think about while you are deciding.

Not to go off on a soap box here, but who can presume to know more about what is good for a person than that person.

On the other hand, if he never knows, the stress from not knowing can cause depression, even cancer. So be safe, send him the info.

Just my opinion.

#12036 01/06/2010 10:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Frederick J. Stephens:
Hello ivbaust,

Your response, and presentation of the alphabet script, is very informative and illuminating - but please permit me to offer a minor correction.

In English the correct interpretation for
"Deutsche Verkehrsschrift" is - "German communication script". The concept of it being a "German Intercourse script" unfortunately has a rather ribald (lustern) interpretation.

I hope that you will accept my correction to this definition, and to do so in the good humour with which it is being offered.

FJS



Thank you for your correction, FJS. It´s always a pleasure to learn more about the English language. Translation programs indeed do have some limitations ... as we just have seen Big Grin

#12037 01/07/2010 08:50 AM
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Sharpe, are you sure the man would make no claim on his father's dagger?

What would be your response?

Just curious....

#12038 01/07/2010 01:54 PM
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If you look at how I managed to get Wolfram to send me a photo & tell me about his father, you will see I had to send him a photo of the dagger with his father's name on it & a copy of my driving licence. He has known all along that I bought the dagger & this was the reason I had asked him for the imformation. Erwin Kuther took the dagger & what other belongings when he left Wolfram's mother, they were put on the market a while ago by Kuther's second family, so the money went to them.

#12039 01/09/2010 11:57 AM
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Thanks for all your advice on what to say to Wolfram Kuther, I have sent him an email with a non too factual account of what his father did in the war. I mentioned Aktion Ernefest, Lublin Ghetto & just said "CAMP" inspection team.I left out what he was actualy in (SD,SIPO, etc) & what their role was, but instead just said he was in that area at that time. I know it's weak, but I do not know anything about his state of health & rather not give a 65 year old man a heart attack or a stroke!

#12040 02/13/2010 09:27 PM
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Today I got a letter from a Horst Kuther (Erwin's grandson), he took 3 months to reply to my letter, but he did have some imformation. After the war Erwin stayed in Berlin using his false papers from the Werewolf organisation and began his profession as a "Merchant". He lived at 2 different addresses in the Berlin-Zehlendorf area (Von-Luck-Strasse & Pfeddersheimer Weg bei der Ehefrau), I do not know which army's Zone of Occupation that area of Berlin came under, but I doubt it was the Russians. As far as his job goes it looks as though he was more of a "black marketeer" than a merchant. I have had no luck in getting a reply from his other family in Stuttgart, but the German military archive centre (WASt) have agreed to do a search of their records. I have asked for his full SS records instead of the few pages I have got, though the WASt letter did state it could take up to several months.

#12041 02/13/2010 10:41 PM
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You're right, Zehlendorf was/is located in West Berlin, i.e. not Soviet occupation area. Good luck with your further investigation, it's gettin' really interesting.

#12042 02/24/2010 09:18 PM
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Posting for Sharpe Cool

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SS Chained
#12043 02/28/2010 05:43 PM
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With this dagger I have hit a problem with my house insurance renewal. Their limit on one item is £1700 or $2700, oviously this dagger is much more & they want a price from me. I am thinking of £7000 or $11200 & pay the extra premium, anyone think I got it wrong?

#12044 02/28/2010 07:00 PM
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There are insurance companies that specialize in insuring collectibles. There are several in the USA, but I doubt they would insure overseas. You might check on the internet, ask fellow UK collectors, etc., about such. You can then compare the rates for the best deal.

#12045 03/16/2010 09:35 PM
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Bad news, the German records centre (WASt) have contacted Erwin Kuther for his permission to send me his father's SS records. He sent me an email saying he will allow it only after he sees them first & decides what to release. So we will wait & see.

#12046 03/30/2010 10:08 PM
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I met up with a reader of this article at the Farnham Maltings militaria show on Sunday. He told me about a personal account of an event, which took place as part of Aktion Erntefest on 3rd November 1943.The Lublin SD supervised the event & the cremations afterwards.
The man who witnessed the event & then organised the cremations was Erich Mussfeldt. No SD officer is personaly named by Mussfeldt & Kuther could have been in Lublin off sick with the flu! but they did organise the whole thing & due to the numbers involved it would have been a case of all hands to the pump.
It started in late October 1943 when 3 pits, 2m deep & 100m long, in a zig zag shape, were dug in Majdanek concentration camp by 300 inmates.Whilst the pits were being dug about a 100 SS & police were arriving from various Polish cities & 12 men from Auschwitz camp. On November 3rd 5am Mussfeldt noticed 500 or so armed police surrounding the camp & 2 trucks from the Lublin Propoganda Office,playing loud marching songs & Dance Music! Before 7am the operation began, inmates were herded into a barrack building, made to strip, then herded to the pits. In batches of 10 they went into a pit lay down in a close pact group & were then shot. This went on till 5pm without a pause in the shooting, due to the fact the executioners worked in shifts & used the local SS mess hall to eat in. The music was broadcast all the time covering up the noise. The pits were then covered over with a thin layer of soil. According to Mussfeldt the entire operation was carried out with close radio contact with the Chief of SS & police in Lublin & other higher officers. An SD officer supervising the operation would give out updates over the broadcasting trucks throughout the day.
Mussfeldt said he tried to save his own work group, but was told that it would not be allowed, due to the operation being conducted by the SD under strict orders from Governor General Frank.
After it was over, Mussfeldt was given 20 Russian POWs & told to cremate the 17,000 or so bodies. He said he was supervised by an SD functionary from Lublin up until Christmas 1943 when all had been cremated.
This eyewitness account was recorded by the Polish authorities on 16/08/1947. It is hard to understand why any member of the Lublin SD would have not been hunted down until he was brought to justice for this war crime.

#12047 03/31/2010 05:48 AM
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Sharpe,

The more nice things you acquire the less it makes sense to buy insurance. Purchase a very heavy, fire-proof safe, and put your stuff in there. Alternately, you can get a lot of daggers into a safe deposit box at your local bank. I have one that can easily hold 20 SS daggers and it costs $80 per year.

Harvey

#12048 04/02/2010 02:04 AM
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Sharpe this has been a great thread and your research on this topic has been very educating. Thank you for sharing. Larry


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#12049 04/14/2010 09:27 PM
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Today I got an email from a man who said he found another eyewitness account of the cremations after Aktion Erntefest. The SD functionary who supervised the operation was a SD officer from Lublin who was of an advanced age for a member of the SS. This statement was taken after the war by Polish authorities from a camp inmate. If this is true & I cannot find this statement, Kuther at 38 would have been a likely candidate. If anyone has seen this statement let me know.

#12050 04/15/2010 02:03 AM
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Great thread thanks for posting, interesting reading.

#12051 06/22/2010 03:56 PM
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Hi, I know it has been a while (4 months) but I am waiting for Erwin Kuther's documents from the WASt, which his son has requested.After looking at them he will pass on what he feels "comfortable" to me. Like his father's history could get any worse! I am guessing that the WASt is responsible for this long delay, but we shall see.

Sharpe #230601 10/17/2010 02:15 PM
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I bought this dagger about a year ago, off a man who helps out on a stall at most Militaria shows at Farnham Maltings & is more than aware of how much you can realisticaly get for third Reich items.The dagger came with some research but very incomplete as this thread has shown.Now it took about 8 months to get this dagger off Ron & he sold it to me for £4000 cash in a pub carpark one autumn evening. Oviously he was not happy & even less when it's very black history & some photos came to light.Now when I saw the dagger at the last Farnham show on Bunter's stall, which he sold to forum member Robinhood for £5700,I had the same feeling as when I saw mine, in that here was a well preserved early 36 with inscription(hopefuly some traceable) & not a plated or parts dagger.Now I know you will not get any bargains off Bunter & these types of daggers in good condition are not common, but have the price of EARLY 1936's gone up within the last year by around £1200?

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I see no signs of tampering with the blade that can be discerned from those pictures.

Besides that, the acid that etched blades ate straight down into the metal, not at an angle. When a blade is ground down, the motto lettering gets fainter and you reach the bottom of the etch but does NOT get narrower.

I bought some junk blades a while back with which to experiment. One thing was to try regrinding / resurfacing when I found out the above.

BTW, another thing I tried was busting off the tip of the blade and it was harder than you might think. I tried breaking at the midpoint - no luck. Further down - no luck. only when I tried the last 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch was I successful ... which explains the daggers we see at shows

Dave

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IT TOOK 10 MONTHS but finaly the documents have arrived.They are not as hopeless as I was starting to think they were. There are 5 in total & quite a few badly hand written entries in the "Remarks" & "Others" sections. I think this is the last imformation I will ever get on this man or Ethnic cleansing monster, depending on your point of view.

Sharpe #235198 12/12/2010 06:57 PM
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I have translated a few documents & with the help of a serving German liasion officer(who does not want to be named),managed to work out the handwritten(in old style German writing) entries. The first one was that on the 1/4/1936,as a senior officer cadidate(Oberstruppfuhrer or Standartenoberjunker as they became known after 15/10/1934) Kuther was transferred into "SS Wolf Gillert" which is described as a light infantry unit, but this description could be wrong as the writing was so bad! I have no firm idea which this honary titled unit belonged to, but I "think" it was part of the Totenkopf.This of course was all took place in the SS-VT years when the SS "Main elements" were Liebstandarte,Totenkopf,Regiment Deutschland & Regiment Germania being "Officialy" formed in 1936.If anyone knows anything on the Wolf Gillert unit or who he was let us know.

Sharpe #235670 12/18/2010 03:08 PM
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I have just completed the translation of Kuther's military service/training.From 1921 till 9/11/1923 he was in the Adolf Hitler Jungsturm in Berlin & rose to Jungsturmfuhrer(Young Stormleader).From the 16/4/1926 till 31/8/1934 he was in the Reichswehr (Federal Defence force)as a Leading hand in a group which carried out "Firework displays." He then became a merchant & worked in Poland,Austria & Czechsovakia.Entrance into the SS was on 12/03/1936 till 1945.His weapons training shows that he was qualified to use the Gewehr 98 rifle,Luger PO8 & MP40 machine pistol.He obtained shooting levels 1,2 & marksman. His special training was as a glider pilot & "Antigas instructor." I would have thought that being trained in the use of Chemical Weapons would have been more use when considering his duties in Poland!

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I have got around to sorting out some more documents & have found out the following. In Kuther's training he attended the "Third course of exterior politics (international politics)at an SS so called School House.He was expelled on the 22/05/1939 for copying from books.I think this action could be taken 2 ways as the SS's view on international politics would be at least different if not the opposite of the truth. So to pass the course you would have to either be a young,enthusiastic & gullable believer or just copy out the text,after changing some of the words. I guess he was just not very good at copying.

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