UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum Is it possible to take a part a Sword handle?

Is it possible to take a part a Sword handle?
If yes, how do I do it?

Short answer: Yes.

You can take down any sword handle. Both lionhead and dovehead style.

But, I urge very strong caution. On both saber styles, the tank is peened to either the pommel or the P-guard knuckle bow. Many collectors have a hard time re-peening the tang.

With a dovehead, typically you'd remove the grip/back strap retention pins from the hilt assembly. Once done, usually the backstrap assembly will come off without much force. Once removed, you'll see the exposed tang peened to the knuckle bow. Some people use a file, a dremmel attachment, etc to remove the peening. Once done, the grip assembly will slide off as well as the knuckle bow and crossguard assembly.

For a lionhead, if it has grip pins they also must be removed first. If they don't the collector will go right to removing the pommel/backstrap assembly from the tang. You can see where the peening is on the pommel (top of lion head). The same meathods of removing the peening are used. Once the peening is removed, the hilt assembly will come apart.

I ursge extreme caution. Many many collectors have ruined sabers because they are unable to repeen the piece. A file or dremmel can be used to attain repeening.

Again, really think about this. If not sure or comfortable, DO NOT DO THIS.

Before taking it apart, depending on what kind of work you are doing, you may be able to effect a repair without full hilt dissassembly. What exactly needs to be done to the sword? If a job like grip wire replacement, you will not need to remove the tang from the knuckle bow assembly. It cane be done very simply.

Its a bad repair to the handle that I think needs to be fixed.

easier with a pic, here it is, or you might have a reapir suggestion,


Thanks in advance

Email me and i'll put together some directions if interested in repair. You can probably do a decent job of repairing the celluloid grip without hilt disassembly.

[email protected]

quote:

Originally posted by Sword-Fish

Many many collectors have ruined sabers because they are unable to repeen the piece. A file or dremmel can be used to attain repeening.

Swordfish....

No kidding that swords have been ruined by folks taking them apart when they aren't meant to be taken apart.

The reason repeening is difficult is that the tang has been shortened up when the peened end is ground off to disassemble the sword. The tang end of the sword blade must be long enough to protrude past the pommel. This is extra metal is necessary when using controlled hammer blows to swage or peen the tang tight to the pommel.

Swords with peened tangs were not meant to be taken down and should not be disassembled.

I am very curious how one would peen metal back using a dremmel tool or a file to do so. Do you use the file to beat the dremel tool or vice versa?

It would be much wiser to encourage folks to leave well enough alone instead of promoting the death of another collectable.

All the best,

Tony

Tony-
Correct. I concur.

That being said, repeening can be effected, however, calling repeening is probably not an accurate nomenlcature. Use of files, dremmes, hammers can effect a repair, however, in no way will it mantain the integrity of the originally peened tang. Basically the tools are used to essentially reflatten the very tip of the tang to create a flathead which will not refit through the integrated tang hole in the P-guard (on a dovhead). A lionhead saber presents more significant challenges are the tollerances are tighter as the peening is itself integrated into the pommel..as can be seen on the lions mane. I have completed repairs on various dovehead pieces utilizing this meathod.

To properly complete this type of reassembly, it's critical that you are left with some tang to work with..even if it's 1/10"

As far as repairing this specific specimine, the owner is left with only a few options.

Option #1- try and find a grip of equivalent size..which in and of itself will not be an easy task. That being said, option #2 is probably the more appropriate approach.

Option #2- Buy some JB Weld- 2 tube mixture. The mix material is similiar to an epoxy the bonds and bind finally hardening to it's respective shape. JB Weld provides as solid, hard final product which can be sanded and subsequently painted. Of course, this procedure requires hand molding to fill in the portions of the celluloid grip that is missing or cracked. A very fine grit sand paper provides smoohing and final fitting. A glossy black paint can be used to add the final touches and blend the paint onto the surface of the celluloid grip. Another member uses Mothers pollishing compound for final pollishing. I've never used Mothers but i've heard it works quite well for this type of job.

Total grip replacement is not a fun job. The biggest burden is finding a grip that will actually fit.

quote:

Originally posted by Sword-Fish:
Tony-
Correct. I concur.

That being said, repeening can be effected, however, calling repeening is probably not an accurate nomenlcature. Use of files, dremmes, hammers can effect a repair, however, in no way will it mantain the integrity of the originally peened tang. Basically the tools are used to essentially reflatten the very tip of the tang to create a flathead which will not refit through the integrated tang hole in the P-guard (on a dovhead). A lionhead saber presents more significant challenges are the tollerances are tighter as the peening is itself integrated into the pommel..as can be seen on the lions mane. I have completed repairs on various dovehead pieces utilizing this meathod.

To properly complete this type of reassembly, it's critical that you are left with some tang to work with..even if it's 1/10"

Swordfish....

With all respect.

How would one have that extra 1/10 inch of tang to work with when the peened end, which is flush with the pommel, is removed during disassembly and no longer there?

I am well aware that the peened tang is hidden under a dove's head pommel and that some wiggle room can be finessed on occasion. But, on lionshead swords the tang is visable and peened to be flush with the pommel. The luxury of finessing any extra material to reassemble is just not there once ground down.

Anything and everything can be taken apart but not always put back together satisfactorly.

Suggesting a total grip replacement causes the sword to become a 'parts' piece which is less desirable that the completely original piece with minor problems.

With the flow of many collectables out of our market elsewhere in thew world there is no need to 'monkey shine' what remains here to try and improve them. What results is a compromised piece. We need to strive to preserve what is left. If one is not happy with a particular piece it would be wiser to move it along unmolesdted and find one that the collector is happy with as it is.

I am still very interesting in knowning how you can repeen something using a file or dremmel tool.


All the best,

Tony

quote:

Originally posted by Sword-Fish:


Option #2- Buy some JB Weld- 2 tube mixture. The mix material is similiar to an epoxy the bonds and bind finally hardening to it's respective shape. JB Weld provides as solid, hard final product which can be sanded and subsequently painted.

SF....

JB Weld is a fine product.

As you say it dries up hard. This may cause some unforseen problems with humidity changes given that the substrate of the grip is wood. Wood can and does expand and contract with humidity changes. IF the JB weld does not do the same to a similar degree a tension will occur between the wood core, the existing 'plastic' grip cover and the cured JB Weld. What eventually can happen is that the strongest bond will over come the weakest link in this trio of disimilar materials. Cracking will result if the expansion and contraction ratio goes beyond the flexability and adheasion limits of any of the commponents glued up. My guess would be the thin shell of the 'plastic' cracking first as it is the weakest.

Just something to think about.

Best regards,

Tony

Tony, no disrespect taken . This is a good discussion, which is what these sites should be about.

I don't advocate creating parts pieces or replacing parts unless totally neccessary. Case in point, I had purchses a specific Weimar Weyersberg example I had wanted for quite some time. Upon finding this example, and being in totally terrible shape, hilt wise anyway, I still proceeded with the purchase.

The grip, wood grip core, grip wire, was trashed. way beyong the scope of repair. The only option with this specific example was to replace the entire grip, and either buy or make new grip wire. Johnson had some grips on hand and he sent the peice closest to the specifications I had sent him. Still, the fit was far from good. It required ALOT of hand fitting to seat in the pommel/backstrap assembly and also had to be cut down to fit the tang. I had used a dremmel friling tool to very lightly undo the peening. Afterwards, the dovehead came apart. Once the new grip was fitted, new grip wire made and applied the job of repeening the piece was at hand. Fortunately I was left with a fraction of exposed tang to work with. With some very lite tapping with a mallett, the tang was flattened a bit. A file was subsequently used to further flatten the remaing tange and fuse it into the P-guard. Scoring both the top of the tang and the area surrounding the hold on the P-guard was sufficient to effect a solid enough repeen.

As far as lionheads go, I havn't made repair (total grip replacement anyway) yet. As you say, it would be very difficult. With lionhead specimines, the tang does not offer the same latitude as does the dovehead. Tollerances are tighter and as you say, the lionhed pommel and tang tip are integrated together and hand finished as such. I believe effecting a repair of this kind on a lionhead is plausible, but it would require additional manipulation (permanent) off the hilt assembly to give you that extra 1/10" of tang to work with. Final hand filing and chizzling would be required to blend the pommel and tang together.

I don't think many of us advocate messing with your pieces. I certainly don't. Buying a piece and later finding out it was manipulated is a bummer. The only pieces I have repaired to this degree are examples which I had a burning desire to purchase, and knew that I likely would not ever find another example.

The sword I mentioned above turned out better than most would imagine. If I sell it, and it won't be anytime soon, I naturally feel obligated to disclose any type of repair that was effected.

As far as JB Weld, only time will tell. The celluloid repairs utilizing the JB have to this point stood the test of time (which is technically short...encompassing only 4-5 years). As time progresses, we'll know more. Certianly I would guess the repairs would hold up better in temperate climates. If the temps are at extremes, I would anticipate more contracting and expanding, hence straining and ultimately cracking the JB repairs.

Interesting discussion.

Maybe it's possible to gain some extra metal from the tang by hammering around the end just like a blacksmith do?
After disassembly of course.

Hi Bismarck,

That's not a bad idea. However, I suspect it would require some high heating to make the tang metal more maleable. But certainly that seems like a way to give you that much more to work with.

Of course, just forgot to mention it.

A blowtorch, two small sledgehammers and you're good to go.

Just a side note-
The meathod above utilizing JB Weld or another similiar epoxy compounds works very very well for cracks in celluloid grips. We see creacks develope over time with the expanind and contracting of the inner wooden grip. Filling in the cracks with the compound has worked very well for me. I have yet to have a problem with the compound cracking or causing further cracking of the original celluloid grip. With the right color black paint, some very fine sandpaper, you can blend the repair quite well with the surrounding grip. The key to producing good results is time. The job cannot be rushed in completed in a couple hours. One needs to make it a couple day project providing sufficient time for the epoxy to settle, dry and cure prior to sanding and application of paint.

I've got photos I had taken of one of my project Heer doveheads that required complete grip replacement. They're on my other PC. I'll dig them up later to give you guys an idea of what was involved of the project and the results, as told by some before and after photos. I think once you see the photos, you should have a better idea of what it entailed and why the various tools I noted were used.

I still like Bismarck's idea of elongated the tang with heating and subsequent hammering. I would guess that the job would need to be researched as I really don't have a solid grasp on metalergy and I could probably over heat or under heat and cause the tang to either snap off or form into an undesireable, non-workable configuration.

Again, I do want to emphasize, be sure you know exactly what you're getting into when udertaking this type of job. The same holds true for any dissassembly. I've seen too many ruined Heers and 2nd patters whos pommel were stripped out after attempted reassembly. If it aint broke, don't take it apart. If it is broke, either don't buy or wait for a better example. If that's not an option, send a PM to a member who you think may be either able to do the repair for you at a fee, or be able to provide insight into his/her reccommended method.

When and if I ever attempt a total girp replacement on a lionhead, i'll save all the photos and post the outcome here....whether it's good, bad, or mediocre. Per our discussion, i'm sure a lionhead will be significantly more difficult. As it stands, all my lions are in excellent shape and won't need full grip replacement.

As it relates to DS's saber, chipped/broken celluloid grips containing similiar or identical damage to the one posted is common. I had repaired a PDL lionhead grip that had a missing piece of grip almost exactly like DS's..just a bit smaller on scale. I utilized the JB Weld method with very good results. It took some fine shaping and sanding to accomplish a decent looking repair. What I found most difficult with the specific repair was painting. In order to paint and blend the paint, it requires you tape or mask up the immediate areas surrounding the repaired area. On a lionhead, the lions chin is difficult to adequately mask because of the various contours and cavities.

Good discussion. I'd like to hear from some others who have repaired celluloid grips and see what thier methods are and how the repairs fared long-term.

Here are a few photos. I guess I don't have one of the top of the tang after repeening. I'll remove the backstrap and try to photo the peening later to illusrate what I mean. Here are some of the photos.

2

After cleaning the hilt assembly, removing rust, corrosion and a light scrub with homemade sudsy.

As you can see, the grip is a bit bigger than the original. To reiterate, finding a suitable grip is much more difficult than many imagine. Supplies are limited, so typically, you need to a find a grip assembly that's somewhat close to the original. Hand finishing and sizing is required.

This grip required me to rewire it, cut it down, and dom some filing, etc., as to accommodate the pommel/backstrap assembly. I used an aluminum grip wire rather than a brass, which I intend to repalce it with. Grip wire requires 2 different gauges to creat the correct twisted wire, depending on the grip wire configuration. I'v eactually rewired a number of sabers who's grip wire was totally shot. It's a very easy job on doveheads..however, with lionheads, the repairman has his work cut out and unfortunately requires removal of the pomml/backstrap assembly..hence presenting the same challenges we discussed in the thread above.

Because the grip was significantly bigger than the original, even after fitting, it still bulges a bit. It almost reminds me of the wide girth grips we see on ordnance sabers.

OK-
This PDL lionhead, had almost an identical piece missing from the grip like DS's. The piece missing extended down to the line where the first row of grip wire is.

This is the sword with the repaired grip where I utilized JB Weld.

Masking the countours were diffiuclt on the piece becuase the chin area is rather elaborate. Look at the Eickhorn Cav. above the PDL. You'll note the smoothe, rounded chin area. A particular saber like that does not require the time consuming and elaborate effort to maske the hilt with tape.

Ordinarily, I would have passed on this saber because of the damaged celluloid grip. But it came cheap as a result of it's damage. If I recall, I paid under $200 for it. Bidders were scared off from bidding because of the grip. Otherwise, it's a nice example. Most of her original gilt is intact, and the blade is flawless.

Nice job you've done.
Great looking swords.

Nice Work Swordfish!

I am always somewhat shy to work on sword grips and peened hilts in general but at some point you have to either pass on the sword or repair it. I tend to pass on swords with this sort of damage but you are doing good work it seems. Celluloid is such a fragile material and I have never found a compatable material that I was not afraid would eventually pressure crack the remaining original grip. It is good to see that your repairs have lasted five years or so.

Thanks for showing! This sort of repair work is not for the faint of heart.

You can totally fix a lions head sword with a steel or brass penned head... No glues needed.... And can have it detailed out again. No problem fixing celluloid grips using the (original) grip . But way in the heck would I tell somone how to do it . I saw many swords that have been taken apart at the max different blades crap grip fix etc..
It is not uncommon for people to try to fix a penned lionhead sword and in trying break the grip (seen a few this weekend) Just leave the stuff alone please...

quote:

Originally posted by DAMAST:
But why in the heck would I tell somone how to do it . I saw many swords that have been taken apart at the max different blades crap grip fix etc..
It is not uncommon for people to try to fix a peened lionhead sword and in trying break the grip (seen a few this weekend) Just leave the stuff alone please...

+1

Why encourage folks to attempt what they are not skilled with? Many perfectly acceptable collectables get degraded by good intentions and poor judgement of ones skills. Most folks fit into this catagory. This is not a slam at my fellow collectors but an obsevation of a sad fact.

For example..... fixing a cavity in a tooth requires not much more than drilling a hole and filling it up again. Simple isn't it? All one really needs is a dremmel and some files and a small hammer to pound the filing in. Right? Well...not quite. Even though we think we know how it's done, I certainly wouldn't recommend doing it yourself.

The point is that there's alot more to it than meets the eye.

Back to swords and daggers.

These are antiques and collectables and should be treated as such.
Please leave them alone or better yet...save your money and expend your time and energy to find and buy a better or satifactory example to begin with.

All the best,

Tony

One of the more interesting threads I've read. I would add you can sometimes effect a grip repair using the plastic sold for vinyl seats, etc., repairs. Depends on the damage. I am considering buying an "nco" type saber with the plain, dovehead hilt. Sadly, the blade is heavily pitted. Will the methods described above work for a blade replacement? Thanks!

Shorten the blade so that the hilt parts slide further on to the blade, given the amount needed to 're-peen' I doubt it ever be noticed. All depends on how much metal you remove if you decide to 'un-peen' the blade, you would really need to be a practically minded person to even attempt it.

Thanks! Do you mean shorten the blade at the shoulders?

Exactly, that in effect lengthens the tang.
The thing is the whole job would have to be approached sympathetically i.e. if you did decide to 'unpeen' it then it would make sense to remove as little material as possible and not go cack handed at it. I've never ever seen one of these stripped down so its impossible really to comment on just how much the tang has been peened over.
Also you should take into consideration the condition of the rest of the piece and whether or not it's worth the effort.

Repeening's tough. No doubt about it. It can nbe done, with more latitude being afforded to dovehead style sabers. I would also reccommend caution. The 1st time I worked one of these jobs, it was on a pretty low dollar sword. I did use crude tools, but the final product came out surprisingly well. It took time and a gentle hand. With subsequent repeenings, I continued to learn more, and did some significant further research. All that being said, it still requires tempered judgement when deciding to engage in such an effort. Like I said, it can be done, and can also be done on lionheads with the integral peened tang into the lions mane. Of all the peening jobs, I would rate an unpeen and repeen on the lionheads as undoubtedly the most challanging. If we were only so lucky to have sabers built with tang nuts, life would be much simpler.

Many thanks for the sound and friendly advice. Generally, I agree with the preservation of collectibles and antiques. I would not take any restoration effort lightly. However, once in a while, something comes along that, in my conservative view, merits restoration to better preserve the item rather than leave it "as is." I will have to examine this sword personally to see which way to go.