UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum Need some opinions on an odd sword....

First of all I'm pretty much clueless when it comes to swords, I do have an older reference book I need to dig out. So, what do I have here? The markings look legit to me, the price I paid was so low that I basically got the markings for free, small local show up here in Alaska, the seller basically "gave" away two swords to me for a token price. Then I spotted this... Thanks in advance, Chris...

ChrisPC
I would suggest to post these numbers in the Names,Documents,and Photos forum and see if this number turns out to be a ss officer.
Maybe then he could be researched to find out where the I/SS fits in.
Do you have any idea what the mark under the 89 is (An eagle)?
Best of luck in finding out more on these interesting markings.

Chris

The eagle marking is an inspection stamp known as a Waffenamt � this indicates a military issue sword.

The number included in the stamp is that of the individual inspector.

15640 is the weapon number.

The SS mark � not sure � as you might know, there are a lot of fake marks added to enhance value.

BTW I�m NOT saying this a fake mark � I�ll leave that to others.

Hope this helps a little.

Richie

Thanks guys, I'll see what I can find out, obviously the Runes have been there for a long time, I have had several PM's concerning that. Another thing that gives this some hope other than the obvious Patina, is that there isn't as much fakery of this stuff all the way up here in Alaska, there just isn't a big militaria/collector market up here. This was a small local gunshow pickup, I also picked up a small Nazi flag, and some other assorted items for a good price. I will definitely see what I can find with more research. Chris..

Opinion only, but it look 100% original to me. I would be glad to add it to my collection.

I tend to agree with Cliff, looks like a great sword.

Not particularity wanting to be a voice of dissent: The sword appears to be a government property German Army Infanterieoffiziers�bel f�r Unteroffizier mit Portepee (senior grade NCO�s). I can�t tell the maker or date from the images, but am going to guess that it is mid-1930�s vintage.

The German Army until quite a bit later did not willingly give the SS arms of any sort (which until then had to procure its own). When it was forced to do so dress swords like this were no longer being manufactured.

The �SS� stamp itself appears to be hand done with something like a couple of modified chisel or screwdriver blades*. Not a factory made stamp.

* Not exactly a novel concept, I�ve recorded a number of examples of "SS" items made this way.

So the provenance for this "SS" saber is?? FP

THanks to all of you for posts, emails and private messages on this topic. I am fairly confident that the markings are legit, I didn't get these from a "big time" collector, and the price I paid was so low that it would rule fakery out in that regard. But, as Fred has eluded to the Provenance may always be in question. There is so much fakery of anything SS that one has to be weary. I personally wouldn't buy anything SS from an internet dealer or source without an ironclad guarantee and scrutiny by those that know a "hell" of a lot more than I do. Any tips on cleaning up some of the light surface rust on the outside of the scabbard? I have wiped off the surface stuff I can get to with some WD40 and a cloth, and then some Breakfree CLP. Any other good methods? (don't mean to take the thread a different direction, but appreciate the advice). Chris...

why not original, there was enough WWI stuff carried around from the early VT units as this stamp presents.

Robert, regarding a possible WW I origin for the saber, IMO that it is not possible because it�s the wrong type of sword. Sight unseen, my guess is that it is 1935 (�G�) dated, as the visible German Army property markings seem to indicate.

As Chris very correctly commented on there are a lot of fake �SS� items in circulation. In my experience it greatly exceeds by a very large margin the amount of genuine period items. In the mid to late 1960�s (?) fakers were creating fantasy etched blade �SS� bayonets from originals which were sold at relatively low prices. Documented fake items themselves of various types were made as early as the 1950�s.

Back then the financial gain was not that great - but so was the cost of the items themselves. With good condition bayonets, daggers and swords (etc.) sometimes selling for as low as $15.00, $20.00, $30.00, or $40.00 (and poor condition items perhaps at half that amount). So there was experimentation (especially the lower cost items), but high end items were also targets for counterfeiters. With what was learned in the counterfeiting process sometimes making its way to higher priced items. Some counterfeiting operations produced a lot of fakes. Some just one or two. Sometimes made from originals, but others like the so-called �Krupp� daggers completely new creations.

Some examples of fake �SS� items that are currently in circulation: A fake �SS� dress bayonet made from an original (which had other additions as well) modified to try and help it sell at a much higher price than a �plain jane�� dress bayonet would have sold for.

And a very high end fake silver hilted �SS� saber (partial new manufacture). Next to a relic condition (junk) Portuguese contract bayonet that was �enhanced for sale� with fake �SS� markings.

Best Regards to All, FP

Everyone has it's own opinion and experience about WWI stuff that was used in the early SS-VT units, the debate about the markings is a different story.

I saw that silver one about 10 years ago.

Dave

Robert,
There is no argument that a considerable amount of early SS-VT material of various types were originally leftovers (recycled) from WW I. Where I have a specific disagreement is with the inspection/acceptance markings on the saber in question. With the "SS" saber in question to the far left. To the far right an inspection/acceptance marking on the pommel of a late Imperial era Infanterieoffizierdegen f�r Unteroffizier mit Portepee (Model of 1889). And in the middle, inspection/acceptance stampings (aka Waffenamts) on a Third Reich era (circa 1930�s) German government property military (Wehrmacht) issue combat bayonet.

Dave,
Looks like the same saber to me, although I think your image might be better than mine. Discussed in quite a bit more detail in the �A. Huhnlein� NSKK dagger thread, the hilt had the same kind of casting problems as some of the links.

Best Regards to All, FP