Translate German to English - Click here to open Altavista's Babel Fish Translator Click here to learn about all those symbols by people's names.

leftlogo.jpg (20709 bytes)

Upgrade to Premium Membership

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#115219 08/09/2005 10:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 654
M
OP Offline
M
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 654
Did the Luftwaffe Forestry "Waffen Loesche Berlin" bayonet come in a version with a plated blade instead of a polished steel blade?
George Wheeler's German Bayonet book states that the weapon has a "polished steel 20 cm blade". Also all of the examples that I have been able to find in Tom Wittmanns old catalogs have a polished steel blade with cross graining.
I believe the plated version must also be correct but I personally have not seen one yet. Also these weapons are not really true bayonets but actually fighting knives or sidearms since there is no way to attach them to a rifle. Mike

#115220 08/10/2005 07:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,889
Likes: 17
Offline
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,889
Likes: 17
Mike 582 I also think to remember some of these Waffen Loesche knifes with blued blades offered by dealers.


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
#115221 08/10/2005 08:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,907
Likes: 4
Offline
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,907
Likes: 4
These knives all had a polished blade, just like an SA Dagger. The blued ones are not correct.
Also, this blade IS NOT LIKE A BAYONET BLADE. The shape is slightly different and the workmanship is far superior to a bayonet.
Waffen Loesche in Berlin was NOT THE MANUFACTURER. That was Anton Wingen and they are marked so C.H.Aw and some are numbered and others are not.
Very unusual knife and high quality.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
PS: The scabbard IS NOT exactly like a short style M98 dress bayonet scabbard.


MAX CHARTER MEMBER

LIFE MEMBER OVMS
#115222 08/12/2005 01:40 PM
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 654
M
OP Offline
M
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 654
Does anyone have any ideas of the meaning of the "H" stamped on the blade spine? Also I have not seen any of the "blued blade" examples. Are these easy to spot as reproductions besides the blade being blued? Do they have genuine or fake stag grips or any other aspects that would easily identify them as reproductions? I just ordered one of these bayonets (a real one) and there seems to be some confusion between me and the seller on if the blade is plated or not.I have not received it yet. Thanks very much for the comments. Mike

#115223 08/12/2005 03:27 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229
Offline
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229
The correct manufacturer of these pieces is Chromolit-Arthur Wingen. The CH AW stands for this. I have never seen fakes of these pieces or any with plated or blued blades. The blued blade would be a post war alteration IMO. It is not known what these pieces actually are or what the H stands for. Some-but not all have a brass frog stud (painted black) on the scabbard. Many years ago I saw one stamped with the 33 Eickhorn TM. The blades can not be replaced on these pieces as the blade and hilt (except for the grip plates and the crossguard ) are all one piece.


MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
#115224 08/12/2005 06:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,089
Offline
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,089
Houston, are you sure about the explanation for Ch A W? The reason I ask this is that this marking is also seen on .22 trainers marked on the bbl/receiver area. I have always interpreted the marking to mean Chef d.Ausbildungs-Wesen, the ranking officer in charge of SA training. I can't understand how the Chromolit-Anton Wingen interpretation would be applied to .22 rifles.


"This hobby is a continuing education"
Looking for Walther Model 8 #727649
and Walther PP #975557
#115225 08/12/2005 07:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,146
Likes: 4
Offline
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,146
Likes: 4
Gentlemen,

You will also find the Ch A W markings on early Postschutz rifle stocks. These were the first of the newly manufactured Kar.98 rifles that were supposedly for the DRP but were tested by the Heer, according to Law. Law also interpreted this marking to be the Chef d. Ausbiltungs-Wesen in his book on Mauser rifles.

I always felt the distinctive blade shape (with integral tang as Houston describes) on this Seitengewehr looked a lot like the early stiletto shape made by WKC. The grinding technique of the narrow fuller and abruptly cut swedge and narrow blade is strikingly similar to their early Extrawaffen police bayonet blades.

Another thing to consider is that not all of these Waffen-Loesche Seitengewehre bear the Ch A W markings. Likewise, some are obviously items of issue and have serial numbers while others do not. It may be logical to assume that the Ch A W marking does not indicate a maker marking.

I agree with Ron and Houston that the blades should be polished steel and the scabbards are distinctive, with most of them having brass frog studs.

Mike, I would be concerned if the Seitengewehr you are getting actually has a plated blade. Hopefully, it is simply highly polished and the fellow did not describe it properly.

George


"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
#115226 08/12/2005 07:52 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,589
Likes: 6
Offline
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,589
Likes: 6
houston these have been faked world wide arms sold them for a while over here, at a first glance they looked quite good


Regards Sean
#115227 08/12/2005 08:05 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,741
Likes: 11
Offline
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,741
Likes: 11
For an explanation of the Ch AW see Tom Wittmans Offering # 40 in the Banter section.

Gary

#115228 08/12/2005 11:43 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229
Offline
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229
The CH AW could mean something else but that exact designation was recently seen in an actual Chromolit TM. Again-I have not seen any fakes-and I attend a lot of gun and military shows and regularly check Ebay. If someone has a fake I'm sure we would all like to see it.


MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
#115229 08/13/2005 12:33 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,068
Likes: 15
Online Content
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,068
Likes: 15
Does anyone remember last year when Jim Maclean picked up one of these pieces maker marked by Alex. Coppel? Not mint but it had an accountability number on the ricasso and scabbard and was maker marked by Alex. Coppel. Also of interest, the piece when disassembled had a Luft acceptance stamp on the tang under the grip plates.


GDC Gold Badge #290
GDC Silver Badge #310
#115230 08/13/2005 12:54 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 860
Offline
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 860
Billy - Remember I bought that Waffen Loesch Bayonet from JRB back in 2001 and you steered me correct that it was blued over the pitting? I returned it to LTC Johnson, who refunded my money, but insisted it was correct with bluing.


Regards, Jeff
#115231 06/24/2006 08:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054
Offline
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054
Okay, I know this is an old thread, but I picked up another one of the "Luftwaffe Forestry" "bayonets" (fighting knives)and the screws were not aligned like my others. So I made a tool from a screw driver to allow it to be disassembled. These are of one piece construction generally, at least the CHAW marked ones are. I had read somewhere these may be Luft marked internally, but this example has no discernable markings under the grips. The crossguard and scabbard are numbered the same, just one time. Some actually have 2 different numbers stamped on the same knife and scabbard..reissued or subunit marked? I thought others would enjoy seeing this piece with the grips off, as I certainly would not mess with my other near mint ones. This one came back together nicely, and now the spanners and screws are aligned in neat German-like order.

My_206_apart_clsm.JPG (74.4 KB, 517 downloads)

John Merling vintagetime@yahoo.com
MAX Life member
OVMS Life member(Ohio Valley Military Society SOS)
OGCA Life member(Ohio Gun Collectors Assoc)
NRA Life member
#115232 06/24/2006 08:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054
Offline
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054
Other side

My_206_apart_In_gr_sm.JPG (72.26 KB, 514 downloads)

John Merling vintagetime@yahoo.com
MAX Life member
OVMS Life member(Ohio Valley Military Society SOS)
OGCA Life member(Ohio Gun Collectors Assoc)
NRA Life member
#115233 06/25/2006 07:56 AM
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,889
Likes: 17
Offline
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,889
Likes: 17
Thank you for doing the effort to disassamble and showing the result. Mostly the screws are frozen and I would not recommend to do any try of disassambling so it is interesting to see it this way.


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,464
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,464
Likes: 1
These have always held an interest for me.
Any other thoughts as to the marking meanings?

Way way back I owned a blued example. The scabbard had been repainted and I never trusted it. Had a great brown frog though. Traded off long ago. Before computers for me.

I recall aluminum screws and spanner nuts in the grips.

I know this is a rather old thread but it has much of interest to it. Perhaps it could be linked to the more recent thread.

--dj--Joe


<BR>
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 934
P
Offline
P
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 934

Last edited by Vern; 03/20/2021 12:37 AM.

FUR EHR' UND PFLICHT BIS HERZ UND KLINGE BRICHT
Paul #302527 11/16/2014 08:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,464
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,464
Likes: 1
I do recall reading that thread.

Thank you.

--dj--Joe


<BR>
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 934
P
Offline
P
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 934
No ads for "forestry bayonets", but interesting none the less....

loesche ad4.jpg (108.68 KB, 356 downloads)

FUR EHR' UND PFLICHT BIS HERZ UND KLINGE BRICHT
Paul #313893 12/15/2015 03:45 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 934
P
Offline
P
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 934
........From a publication dated 1937


FUR EHR' UND PFLICHT BIS HERZ UND KLINGE BRICHT
Paul #313927 12/17/2015 03:28 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,068
Likes: 15
Online Content
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,068
Likes: 15
Paul,

Awesome period publication, thanks for sharing it! Boy, there'd be no problem outfitting some cool threads from that place smile


GDC Gold Badge #290
GDC Silver Badge #310
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,333
Likes: 3
Offline
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,333
Likes: 3
Looks like the same add that was on e-bay in early Dec. I was watching that auction... Great add..

Last edited by DAMAST; 12/19/2015 07:22 AM.
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,146
Likes: 4
Offline
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,146
Likes: 4
Good information on Waffen Loesche Berlin. Thanks for posting the advertisement.


"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
ORPO #314270 12/28/2015 08:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,907
Likes: 4
Offline
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,907
Likes: 4

They were obviously a wholesaler or supplier.


MAX CHARTER MEMBER

LIFE MEMBER OVMS
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 934
P
Offline
P
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 934
posting for DiploMatt

"I have only seen a hundred or so in all my years of collecting but have bought any I could-knots/frogs as found, including 2 with forestry knots"

keep up the good work Dippy!

dippy1.jpg (109.36 KB, 229 downloads)
dippy2.jpg (109.35 KB, 227 downloads)

FUR EHR' UND PFLICHT BIS HERZ UND KLINGE BRICHT
Paul #318387 05/12/2016 04:26 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,806
Likes: 18
Online Content
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,806
Likes: 18
Dippy:

All I can say is WOW!

J


Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,068
Likes: 15
Online Content
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,068
Likes: 15
Dippy,

That's an incredible lineup of Luft Forestry bayonets. The attached knots really help fill in the blanks of what we've all heard & surmised as the original purpose of these well made blades. Thanks for sharing!


GDC Gold Badge #290
GDC Silver Badge #310
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 878
D
Offline
D
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 878
Here's a hand grenade that needs catching,I am predominantly a dagger collector however in the last few years I have specialised in waffen loesche,teno and Npea/ Napola (all items) I recently visited the spandau Berlin Napola school which is now a police cadet school ,afterwards I visited an antique fair in charlottenburg just to say I had been to the area where the Npea daggers were distributed from....... Could the ch on the waffen loesche stand for charlottenburg
Dippy

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,741
Likes: 11
Offline
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,741
Likes: 11
Dippy

CH- Chromolit
AW- Arthur Wingen.

Gary

Paul #318401 05/12/2016 11:08 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,589
Likes: 6
Offline
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,589
Likes: 6
No wonder i can't find one. Lol


Regards Sean
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 878
D
Offline
D
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 878
Why not

CH - Charlottenburg - Berlin
AW- Anton Wingen

We're all blades chromed ?
Dippy

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 878
D
Offline
D
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 878
Oh and most importantly why does the H on the side of the blade not signify horster as it does under the lug of an Npea dagger From Charlottenburg.Maybe now we are only looking for what the aw really stands for I am sure we can find a theory for that.!!!
Dippy

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,068
Likes: 15
Online Content
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,068
Likes: 15
Dippy,

Those are interesting hypotheticals. I do believe someone here on GD had posted a period advertisement that documented a connection between Chromolit & Arthur Wingen.

The "H" on the spine of some Luft Forestry bayonets has long interested me. Tom Wittmann had a theory that the letter designated an airfield, Hildescheim. Perhaps as good a theory as any.


GDC Gold Badge #290
GDC Silver Badge #310
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 878
D
Offline
D
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 878
Sorted it
H - on spine maker mark Horster as per h on Npea charlottenburg dagger lugs.
CH - Charlottenburg Berlin distributor as per Npea daggers.
AW- Achmer Wallenbrock
Luftwaffe airfield from 1936 til 1945 located in the rich hunting forests of Lower Saxony .

http://www.ww2.dk/Airfields%20-%20Germany%20[1937%20Borders].pdf
Well that's my theory anyway.
Dippy&#129299;

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 934
P
Offline
P
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 934
Genius LOL!!!!!!


FUR EHR' UND PFLICHT BIS HERZ UND KLINGE BRICHT
Paul #318451 05/14/2016 10:57 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,589
Likes: 6
Offline
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,589
Likes: 6
Nice detective work


Regards Sean
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,464
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,464
Likes: 1
Enjoyed going through this thread again.

--dj--Joe


<BR>
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 166
Likes: 5
Offline
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 166
Likes: 5
Originally Posted by diplo matt
Sorted it
H - on spine maker mark Horster as per h on Npea charlottenburg dagger lugs.
CH - Charlottenburg Berlin distributor as per Npea daggers.
AW- Achmer Wallenbrock
Luftwaffe airfield from 1936 til 1945 located in the rich hunting forests of Lower Saxony .

http://www.ww2.dk/Airfields%20-%20Germany%20[1937%20Borders].pdf
Well that's my theory anyway.
Dippy&#129299;


Matt i guess you made a few wrong conclusions here:

Charlottenburg Berlin is not the distributer of NPEA daggers, thats Burgsmuller, Charlottenburg is an affluent locality of Berlin within the borough of Charlottenburg-Wilmersdorf. Established as a town in 1705 and named after late Sophia Charlotte of Hanover.

Why AW would refer to an airstrip?
The Achmer you refer to is called: Fliegerhorst Ahnenkult - Achmer. im pretty sure that would be a wrong conclusion.

I do think your theory of the spine H stands a chance.

I have done quite some research on these Waffen-Loesche knives, even up to the family of the former owner of one i bought in Austria.
They searched for his Soldbuch to see if there was a unit specified, but none was found.

I came across a period invoice of chromolit Anton Wingen, but the abrevement Ch looks quite different as the ones on the blade.
The hunt goes on....

For those who are interested:
http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/luftwaffe/luftwaffe-forestry-knife-waffen-loesche-ch-w-688163/

here is the Chromolit invoice:

Cheers
Ger


Waffen loesche.jpg (14.18 KB, 136 downloads)
Last edited by Gerrit1963; 06/23/2019 06:49 AM.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,889
Likes: 17
Offline
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,889
Likes: 17
Hello Gerrit1963, there is not the least doubt that Ch.A.W. is the mark of Chromolit Arthur Wingen even more as it is the serious research product of the most experienced but sadly late A. Carter AND (local!!! - I think at least these should know exactly) Solingen swordsmiths which was published in full version a few years ago.
The fact that the "ch" is looking differet on the invoice and on the knife imho says nothing because the use of totally different fonts for one and the same during the period is not uncommon.
But nevertheless thank you very much for showing this interesting invoice!

Btw I do own a period studio wearing pic of a member of the Forstschutzkommando. You can clearly see what sidearm he is wearing. A stag horn gripped walking out bayonet..... unfortunately no Waffen Loesche.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 166
Likes: 5
Offline
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 166
Likes: 5
Hi Wotan,

about your opinion regarding the difference in style of the Ch on the blade and logo on the invoice i think im right, because on the Chromolit cutlery they used the exact same Ch as on their invoice.
Artur Wingen even used the same logo on their SA daggers, so why not on their Waffen Loesche if they produced them?
I think its just not the abbrevement of Chromolit.

Regards
Ger

chromo 2.jpg (34.42 KB, 76 downloads)
chromo.jpg (60.39 KB, 75 downloads)
Last edited by Gerrit1963; 09/10/2019 06:48 AM.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Popular Topics(Views)
2,226,285 SS Bayonets
1,726,538 Teno Insignia Set
1,088,707 westwall rings
Latest New Threads
What day is it anyway!!!!
by ed773 - 12/08/2022 12:09 AM
Enamel badge from hitler youth dagger?
by Djp - 12/06/2022 08:48 AM
Neu aus Deutschland
by VEBSCHNEIDWAREN - 12/06/2022 06:44 AM
Gravity knife parts wanted
by Robidoo - 12/05/2022 07:07 PM
Help needed please
by Dudgeon - 12/04/2022 08:53 AM
Latest New Posts
Show Your Variant SS Hangers
by Dave - 12/08/2022 07:23 PM
What day is it anyway!!!!
by ed773 - 12/08/2022 01:04 PM
Verlangerungsmesser
by C. Wetzel-20609 - 12/07/2022 07:42 PM
Neu aus Deutschland
by ed773 - 12/07/2022 12:38 PM
Kyffhäuserbund and N.S. Reichskriegerbund badges.
by Don Scowen - 12/07/2022 10:38 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics31,336
Posts324,685
Members7,266
Most Online5,900
Dec 19th, 2019
Who's Online Now
9 members (Duzig, Nietzsche, JohnZ, SpitfireVb, Billy G., Dave, Jim W, Dutch, atis), 91 guests, and 52 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5