UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum SS Cuff titles

In an effort to overcome the negatives that have seemingly pervaded this forum, to those who are in that arena of negativity, I say positive....so raise me one or 2!!

And with that I raise you one more....tell me its a REPRO, I double dog dare ya!!!

In the true essence of what all of us are supposed to be posting about here, PLEASE LEAVE THE POLITICS OF IT ALL OUT OF THIS PLACE!!!

SO lets see some camp mens gear, and if ya can't post it, don't bother commenting on it!!!

Seriously, your comments are welcome on this stuff, but PLEASE, stay focused on the items, and if you want to talk about it in terms of skulldrugery, take it to your local priest.

I can hear the wimpering now, TAKE IT SOMEWHERE ELSE!!

To those who have stated that this forum is not the place to be, I ask that you reconsider, and to those that seem to put fuel on the fire I ask that you reconsider your ways of discussion of those that do leave others with an education of their studies.

There are people here who appreciate the knowledge that those who are SMARTER than others in these collectibles can share.

If you want political debate, sign up as a Republican, Democrat or whatever, and go for it....DONT DO IT IN THIS THREAD.

YOU LUCKY LUCKY ...

Rich you are so very right,,also take into consideration that some have other agendas, anyway,,

This is a treat. I take it this is a 'benchmark' piece, the perfect prime example of what these should be when produced? Was the RZM office the holder of items like this? , G.

only have one lonely Oberbayern cuff title

Rich, please send also some close ups from the embroidery.

Rich...I dont know anything about cuffbands...but right on the tag it says "prototype"...I dont even know if that would be good or bad...but that is what is says...regards...Roland.

Roland, i'm not sure that you are 100% correct on this.We have a similar word in Norway(Orginalpr�ve),it means the first example of let's say 100 made.So you tag the first one of the batch,to use for your archives or whatever reason you might have.So it's identical with the rest of the batch and really not a "prototype".I'm sorry if i'm totally wrong here.I'm not very skilled in the German language but a lot of german words are very similar to Norwegian and often means the same when translated.



Ulf, sticking his neck out

Hey Rich,tks for posting this.I have one like it without the "probe "
tag which is a sample for submission to the RZM for approval.
I have wondered for years if its original??Have studied your pic
and all the lettering/bullion looks identical.It is what is called
"RZM"type in construction and woven on backing looks like an off
white/biege co**** weave calico type cloth.There is a tired SS
RZM label with difficult to read makers No....4 and D..017171
It is all pretty stiff and not limp.For those who are swayed by these details wire edges are 6 strand.I have seen both 6&7 on
originals.Tell us more of your detail.Tell me mine is real!!!
Close ups if possible??Cheers
Seiler,Yank in UK

As a german citizen I agree on the statement from our friend from Norway, Probe or Originalprobe has nothing to do with Prototype. It is a proofed sample from the end of the manufacturing process.

Rich that is one interesting cuff band with tag. I'm interested to know more about the tag as its being discussed.

Tony could you post a picture of the back of your Oberbayern title. I have one on layaway (they are expensive, you know) and just wanted to compare.

And thanks for the positive thread!!

here is a close shot of the back but I think the front of these are more likely to tell the true tale than the back.

The red is just some fluff caught in the bullion.

I am going to let the cat out of the bag, but no more than half way on this one.

Unfortunately, this piece is no longer in my collection and was let to aid in paying for my education for my kids.

I think about this particular cuff title on and off, and when the thought is on this particular piece, I am happy to say that I did have somthing that is quite possibly the rarest of rare of these things.

And after seeing what happened on the thread just a couple days ago, I felt it was time to at least share the images of what I had, and let me advise as well, when I had the item, I spent a lot of time in close inspection of this particular cuff title.

I have an agreement of not letting on to who the owner is currrently of this fabulous item, and with that, I can only show a couple more images and no more.

Please keep in mind what you are looking at are photos I shot of this particular item, as unfortunatley, I do not have the original with me to shoot in an image with a digital.

I scanned the images and used an photo editor, but could not get the image reduced enough for this forums limitations, so I had to enlist my digital camera to take the shot of this image. The originals are obviously much clearer.

A few other things I can let on with this is when this surfaced, there was a kind of euphoria that came along with it. Being able to obtain an item like this I think is a major accomplishment in this collecting arena. To be able to keep it for as long as you like is even better.

Then when the bills racked up, I felt pretty deflated and I had made a call to someone, which ended up in a call back, a promise to send many dead presidents, and advice, you don't send it to me, I'll hunt you down!

I advised back I would hold his dead prez's, and on his advice that the item was what he wanted and original, we then were complete in out business.

Mind you, he nor I ever spoke before that time, and it was done on pure trust. I had asked for an agreement of my own, and that was not to show the item for a long period of time, as a certain well known west coast dealer had looked at this several months prior. He advised what he felt it was worth, and what ensued was a major learning process on how things really work in the dealing side of the biz.

I know I left that dealer rather upset at my antics in the sale of this, but with that, I made the decision to do what I did.

The result was, the item was sold directly to the person to whom I communicated, and he was very happy to land this in his collection.

The gentleman to whom I spoke and worked with with is known, but in due time, he just may have better shots available in some future publication.

Lets hope that happens, as this item is a true gem.

With all this being said, if the current owner sees this thread and hopefully reads to this point, I apologize as no permission was asked to post this, but, consider the fact that I found the item, and was in line for some time prior to you.

And with that, it has been a long time since I even looked at these images, and felt with the happening of the brain drain from here over the weekend that this spark might aid in smoothing things over for those involved, and might even bring them back to at least post in a civil thread about the item, as I know you won't see another in this condition with its tag.

And finally those bills that we had? We still have them!! But in good thought, the $ are helping pay for (part, not ALL!!)college for my kids, so I am happy with that thought!

Here is another shot of the SS-TKV cuff title.

For a final finale, here is a cuff title that a number of us have seen on the past, but this one is totally mint.

Seiler, how about an image of your cuff title?

Roland and others who ask about the card board tag, as I understand it, these were the samples submitted for acceptance by the SS, so when a manufacturer completed the last part of the production of the piece, it was then submitted.

The signature means the item was recieved for inspection for acceptance, and that was he recieving officer who accepted to piece.

What is interesting about this particular piece, but not shown in the image, is that each end has a different RZM tag & number. That means that the band maker attached their RZM tag, and then the piece was moved to the bullion emboriderer for their work to be completed, and another tag was added.

Since the item was RZM approved (hence each manufacturer has their RZM tag to affix the accepted way) they had already cleared RZM acceptance for production of the piece.

No where on the card board tag do you see anything related to the RZM, only to the SS to whom the title is dedicated.

Additonally, if you look close, you can see there is a number of items that have been accepted, Article Nr 1051, with the one showing a line drawn through it, and a 5 in pencil just above the typed number.

So my thought is that there were 1505 articles accepted for final authorization by the Verwaltungsamte, by the officer whom signed the tag.

So what is the definiton of Verwaltungsamte? In looking in todays terms, it has a partial meaning of an admin department.

Because the rear is not shown in images, anyone who might think they can repro this is out of their league, cause those images will not be shown by me.

They would have an extremely difficult time due to the fact of other things that occur with this title on the back side.

Perhaps in time, that will be shown, but for now, this must be one of the things I'll not post in an open forum.

There is more for sure, as the back of the stiff cardboard also has something on it, and if someone can state what that is, you win the prize.

Thats the knowledge of what it is.

I am sorry if it seems I am teasing, I am not, because of the fact of someone out there just might decide they can make one of these....

Now the question I have, does anyone have an idea of who the acceptance officer is, and perhaps some history on this person?

The signature is Loerner, head of the concentration system, some probe pieces are signed by Pohl's adj. "Schiller"earliest date I have seen is 1939 for the Schiller signature. As a interesting note the police diamond probe is made about 30 % larger than the actual production diamond. Every Probe Piece I have seen is of the highest embroidery quality. The number on the probe tag corresponds to the SS Price list.
jim toncar

Rich,
Sorry cant do/post pics.Not allowed!!!
But I assure you they are like peas in a pod
Seiler Yank in UK

Beautiful pieces..is the SS totenkopfverbaende machine emboridered or hand?

Jim is absolutely right about the number corresponding to the item number in the SS Price Lists ( the cufftitle cost 3.40 RM in 1939 by the way ). These pieces are the models for manufacturers to follow when completing bulk orders for the Verwaltungsamt (Supply Department for the SS).
I think though that Loerner is signing on behalf of (im Auftrag) the head of the VA and not for the head of the Concentration Camp System.
Derek

I have seen the following SS Probe pieces;
1. SS Totenkopfverbade cufftitle
2. SS Flak M.G. Abt. cufftitle
3. SS Fencing diamond
4. Police raute
5. Germania cufftitle
6. W.B. Dachau cufftitle
7. Prinz Eugen cufftitle (final pattern tag)
8. Music Schule collar tab ( final pattern tag)
Can anybody add anything else to this list ?
Thanks for the additional info Derek , I was doing this from memory ( that could be fatal)Most , if not all of the above pieces came from members of the 45th Rainbow Division, who took them out of Dachau.In the late 1980's a certain group of pickers went thru a roster list of this Division and contacted this group of vets, these are some of the fruits of there labor. I feel every one of the above pieces is a collection in itself, they are very beautiful to see in person.
jim toncar

Scott, the SS Totenkopfverbande is hand embroidered. All early Probe pieces that I have seen are this way, but I must say my knowledge is very limited on this topic , perhaps someone else has seen something and can help out?
jim toncar

Jim, Derek,

Regarding the 1501 with the struck out one, and a 5 in pencil above, since this corresponds to a list for these things, how many items were on this list?

Was this list for insignia only, or were there other lists in different numerical designation, such as this titles 1501 struck out to a 5, would mean perhaps that cuff titles were a 1000 series numerical listing?

Since I do not get to see these publications from the era, I am really out in left field and left out.

And then, the cardboard tag itself, shows a streak that looks to be old tape, and as I recall there was nothing in the feel that indicated that was tape, why and what was that used? Do other probe pieces have that on their cardboard also?

The oldtimers disease is getting to me too! the tape, can't remember for sure if it was a tape or a darkened streak from an oiled material or not.

Who produced the tag, was that something that was done within the SS admin when the piece was brought forth by the manufacturer or supplier, or was it done by the manufacturer supplier before delivery to the specification of the SS recieving officer?

More questions this brings up too...what happened to these pieces once they were in the system, Jim you mentioned that these came out of Dachau, were these held along with other embroidery for the SS or just for that camps insignia?

If it was just for camp insignia, where would have other embroidery gone that was probe embroidery insignia?

Was there more than one probe piece, possible that maybe another SS-TKV probe title is out there somewhere?

Does this mean also that there were sleeve eagles with the probe tag as well as rune insignia as well?

The embroidery is just fantastic on this one, as the image does not do justice to what the title looks like in person.

By chance, anyone have an image of Loerner?

Rich,
The lists generally have provision for about 1500 items. They cover all the insignia, uniforms and most of the accoutrements for the SS. I have posted below a page so you can see what they looked like, it's the page with the cufftitle shown above.
There is a fascimile reprint of the 1938 list that you might be able to find for sale somewhere on the net.
To the best of my knowledge the tagged pieces were sent to a manufacturer as a guide for the production of the order. So, there would probably be several kept at the VA in case of multiple orders.
The tags covered all types of SS insignia not just camp insignia. The reason they were found in Dachau was that one of the major Vervaltungsamt headquarters was situated in the Uebungslager there.
Other tags I have seen do not have the stripe.
Hope this helps,
Derek

For this discussed sample issue I would like to remind also about the ABC... cufftitle sample from the great Burmeister find what is shown in one of the Ulric from Eng. cufftitle books.

Derek, do you have a earlier Price list to perhaps tell what some of the omitted item numbers were ?
jim

Derek,

Thank you for posting that list. Can you imagine pointing to one of the items, saying I want three, and then be told that is 9 RM or thereabouts?

In the day...

A very interesting document indeed.Thank You for posting it.
Thank you also to Honolulu Rich for thread on a most beautiful and intriguing piece of Insignia.