UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum How many Himmlers out there?

I am a new collector and Yes I do not know many many things about the hobby and that is exactly why I joined this forum. To learn. To Share. I feel, however, that a different opinion is not well tolerated here by some experienced members. I wonder why? You guys are using an eyeballing analysis to evaluate an etching that can be reproduced. I do not have a perfect fake Himmler to show you but IMO an eyeballing analysis is not a guarantee of an authenticity of an etch.

HELLO!! As I have tried to convey in this thread: IT is NOT the etch, but the fittings, finish of the grip, lacquer on the scabbard, nickel content of the fittings and color of the steel in the blade THAT ARE DIFFERENT FROM THE REGULAR M33 SS DAGGERS BY EICKHORN!!
Once you have looked at the Eickhorn presentation Himmlers and Roehms, it becomes obvious that these are different period.
Today's reproducers are not able to capture this metal content and finish.
I have talked with Rex Reddick about this very fact and he told me that the metal content and machining in Germany today CANNOT match this.
He should know as he was the one in the 1980s and 1990s who reproduced the blades.
He said it just cannot be done today, believe me he has tried.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Oleg, e.mail sent !
Ron, that's exactly what I have tried to explain to them but to no avail.
How in the world can they be so stubborn ?
I quit for good this time, I don't want to waste more time and energy on hopeless individuals that will never see the light and think that they know it all, though they are new comers.
Trully sad and pathetic .............end of the thread.

Herr Mann: I have found 4 Himmlers. But I have found only 1 Teno Leader and 2 Postals and only 3 HJ Leader's, so should this tell me that these are all more rare than the Himmler. YES. I have stated this for years.
Serial numbers on the TeNo Leader have been observed into the 3000 range as well as the Postal.
I have already said that I believe there are 9900 Himmlers, so what is the problem???
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

The "Himmler believers" are not out of arguments. There is no argument - just facts. It is the "nonbelievers" who do not accept the facts and can only state opinion and conjecture. There can be no valid argument without facts.

I can tell you what turned me off Himmlers & Rohms - both expensive daggers with inscriptions - and it wasn't the arguments advanced here. It's when I learned of a recent sale by a "big name" dealer of a full Rohm SA dagger which was fake. It was other old-time experts who said it was bad. So either this dealer (with the highest credentials BTW) was deceived by "an almost perfect fake" - which everyone here says is impossible to exist - OR the dealer deliberately sold the fake. In either case it's put me off these high priced daggers for the time being. There's either at least one "perfect fake" or a crooked dealer out there. Call be an ignorant newbie if you want, but sticks and stones.....

I gotta tell you--this is garbage. There are NO perfect fake daggers OF ANY KIND. The key word is PERFECT. Just an observation -but those who love to cry fake whenever a rare dagger is mentioned--have never owned one. Do you have to own one or rent one for a while to know the minute differences? Yep! Is all that stuff in books? Nope! Could there be a bit of "sour grapes" here? The green eyed monster? Oh No--It could'nt be that--could it?

The term "perfect fake" is a red herring. The fact is the major dealer sold a full Rohm SA that was no good in the opinion of other experts. I could have bought it - I had the money - but bought something else instead from someone else, after I heard about this. You can call it a very good fake - or a fake that would only fool an amateur. But someone bought it. So you either have a good fake or a bad dealer - there's no other explanation. I've never met Herr Mann or any of the other posters on here. I don't even believe in the "perfect fake" theory - for logical reasons if nothing else. Everyone can keep saying it's impossible - I know it happened.

Good Morning,


Great. One of my few posts happen to be on Friday 13th. Here comes the pain.....IMHO:
Regarding the Himmler dedication dagger "population". Two hundred (total) issued daggers to his legions of SS troopers on it's face seems low to me. Here is a man who was so obsessed with his SA counterpart's emminent role in the regime,helped formulate the scheme to destroy him. Bearing that in mind, I think he would want his dagger "count" to be higher than the SA dedicated cousins. Himmler's ego alone would be a factor in agreeing that 9900 issued SS daggers would not be unreasonable. So....
Two hundred (200) initially issued Himmlers to the hulking black tunic wearing brutes that kicked down doors,swung blades and bursted off MP-40 fire into their brown shirt wearing counter parts? Seems to me like a healthy parade square number, and a great thank you to a fanatical company of 200 murderers who risked it all for the cause. I bet the gangly Himmler was tired after passing them all out (up?) to the 6'+ hulks that day...
The other 9000 plus were to be issued as time permitted and the remaining plan unfolded.So the fixation of a 200 only Himmler dedication daggers in the world is tied to the initial operation as I see it. As the "attempted coup" stabilized the other loyal SS were taking care of (hey! where's my ss dagger guys!) as time rolled on. Ron Weinand post says this in a more historically correct manner.....I just wanted to add the emotion into it!
So,Oleg there were 15 Himmler's at the MAX? Wow, that's all? 15 divided by 9900, less than 1/10 of 1 per cent.....ahhh forget it!
Rest assured, anyone that is about to buy a Himmler will post it here and there you go! We have a great consortium of opinions to help smooth the decision to buy it or not with no pressure. Thank heavens we have fellows like Hohaus here and company to help us out on decisions like these that may arise.


Be good
Dale Corra

There is a video somewhere that shows historical footage of TNotLK and the aftermath.
In it is seen HH rewarding the SS men who took part with the awarding of "special daggers".
Might be in "Hitler,a Career"
Seiler(yank in UK)

quote:

bursted off MP-40 fire

June of 1934 is a little early for use of an MP-40........

Oh dear,
Someone wasn't reading the earlier posts regarding the aliens visiting. You see time travel was mastered and----oh never mind----
You passed the fact minfeild test though ace, the pre-existence submachine gun *trap* was camoflauge for the 9900 Himmlers. It was so that number wouldn't be attacked anymore.
Congratulations!



Have a great day eh
Dale Corra

Much thanks to the member who emailed me and was courteous enough to answer my question posted here and explained the etch process on these type daggers..Also thanks to the member who emailed me and mentioned there's at least one dealer/collector that owns an original period etch pattern to a Rohm...AND again, thank you to the member who emailed me that these pieces were reproduced shortly after the war and even sent a photo of one being done from what he believes is the late 50s....

Interesting daggers with a great history,,glad to see you guys can distinguish between the originals and the copies and enjoy them.........thanks,G.

Wow, this one has really spun out of control! I am just glad to see more people posting now. It seemed so dead here lately. Now summer is over... I do not consider myself an ignorant "newbie" even though I have been a member HERE a mere year. I have been collecting less than 2 decades. Not hard-core, just what time and money affords. I have seen 3 Himmlers in my life, never owned one. I do own a full Rohm, (SA) however. I am still not quite out of my 30s yet! I hate to see the old time collectors get riled up here. I have learned a lot from them, and highly respect their opinions. Still, I don't doubt there are some good fakes out there that might fool me. That is where these veterans become essential. Based on their years of experience, I would trust their methods of authentication. Let's face it, these guys DO know what they are doing. Let's not piXX these guys off, we need their wisdom passed on to us "younger" collectors in order to keep this hobby alive. I send my thanks to the guys like Ron, Dave H., Houston, and the rest of you veterans who continue to post here. Keep it up! That reminds me, even though I have no doubts about it, I need to post pics of my Rohm in the SA section for "opinions". Its not minty, buy I am still proud of it! Take care guys

No one is saying extreme caution should not be exercised in buying a dedicated dagger, or anything else. It does not matter how long you have been collecting or how much you know, extreme care should be taken when considering a purchase, especially the more expensive kind. No one is saying there are no fake "Himmler's" and "Rohm's." There are scores of them around, ranging from the ridiculous to the very good. There are also fakes of just about everything else in this hobby (buckles, tunics, medals, etc.). You name it. Our concern here is principally "Himmler's." They are real, there are well over 200 examples and they have traits which indicate they are authentic. Even the best fakes do not have the telltale traits of the real ones, although some are very good at first glance. The usual precautions need to be taken when buying something you are unsure about (return privilege, seller's reputation, posting photos here, etc.). That many fakes exist throughout the hobby does not in any way indicate authentic examples do not exist and that there are valid methods to discern one from the other.

From my understanding now, a Himmler 1934 dagger is different from a regular (not dedicated) SS dagger not in just the dedication but in a number of some other ways such us differently anodinized scabbard, the crossguards without Roman numerals, and the maker mark. Can someone please list those differences?
Thanks

Oleg,

You're correct, the crossguards, grip, eagle's inlay and maker marked are all unique to an SS Himmler.
There's never any Roman numeral on the crossguards, the maker is always Eickhorn, the eagle inlay is always the "high neck" style, the grip is always the Eickhorn chunky ebony type ( easily recognizable from other SS grips ), there's always a numeral benchmark under the crossguards ( 99% of the time anyway ), unique crossguard shapes, logo always very close to the lower crossguard as compared to a non-Himmler blade, and many, many other minute characteristics.
For all of these reasons, it is impossible to fake a perfect Himmler.
I haven't even talked about the inscription as another important factor. I have never seen a perfect faked etched Himmler inscription yet and they're even getting worst then ever, as compared to those made in the 60's.
No, the days has not come yet that the oldtimers will be fooled.

Oleg, the computers and new technologies are not enought to duplicate these parts perfectly.
You would need the same old machines, their craftmen with there specific flaws and characteristics.

You would think that it would be an easy job just to reproduce a fake SS decal on an helmet.
Well, it seems that it is impossible yet, eventhough we are now sending men in space.
Go figured !
I'm glad that you have kept an open mind about it and don't be fooled by the other ignorants that have no expertise in the matter.
We will get a few drinks at Craig's party !

First of all, ALL Himmlers are made by Eickhorn and utilize the small, double oval TM located close to the crossguard. Both types of TM are used: serrated tail and smooth tail.
Next, the bottom of the lower crossguard will have an assembler number 0-9.
The fittings are of a higher content of nickel and will have a slightly more yellow tinge to the color.
Next, the grip appears to be better quality and much better finished, but will tend to chip more easily, especially along the fit at the crossguards.
The scabbard lacquer finish will be much more pronounced: either a different type or more coats. It tends to hold up better.
On Himmler's with the short hanger still attached and in MINT condition, the assembler number on the lower crossguard will also be impressed on the under side of the tip of the leather hanger (same size). This is rare to find and the hanger is seldom in good enough condition for the number to still be seen.
The overall fit and finish is superior to regular M33s.
You need to look at a lot of Himmlers to develop the ability to see these traits, but they are there and come with experience, so go to shows and look at as many as you can find.
Once you own one and study it for hours, you will become familiar with these traits and can spot them easily.
JMO
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Good God!

Pat and Ron just revealed the Himmler secrets!

Now the fakers will be able to improve their copies with this information!

Please don't give them the last secrets, "the Alien key" of the Himmler dagger, or all will be lost...



Sorry guys, just this ones I have to break my own rules and waste some valuable forum space... Just could not resist!

Best greetings,

Herman

Everything is already written in Wittman's book on SS edged weapons but there's nothing that can replace an actual accounter with a real one, holding it in your hands.
There's also more to it that hasn't been said but we keep that to ourselves............the oldtimers.

I don't think all original Himmlers have the high necked grip eagle-but it's certainly nice if they do.

Houston is right about the eagle. The lower guard may or may not have a "bench" number (0-9) stamped on it. The vast majority do, but all do not. No district number on the guards, which are internally marked "HE" or "AR." Not all are in "minty" or "high excellent" condition, but most seem to be. These were presentation daggers and, although they could have been worn as any M33, most were likely preserved and carefully cared for due to their special status, just as an honor dagger would have been. These are not dark, hidden secrets. This information has been available for many years for those who cared to research it and become knowledgeable.

If all the secrets cannot be given out then the daggers may not be perfect, but they are near perfect.Which is all any TR collector needs to know.

I don't care if you dislikes me for this post but I am sick and tired of this Himmler Dagger stuff. How many times have I heard this topic over and over again on this forum. I can tell if it's original, as can most experienced dagger collectors, in about 20 seconds, and that's without taking the dagger apart. If you are not sure if one is real then show it to someone who knows. Serrated tails, non-serrated tails, bench mark, no bench mark, long neck eagle, short eagle, "HE marked cross gaurds, or "AR" marked cross guards. I'm so confused!

I've sold over fifty Himmler in the last fourty years. I guess that would means that they made a lot more then 200 of them, don't you think? Da!

Gailen David

I'm about 43 Himmlers behind Gailen, , but I can tell you in over 27 years of selling, handling and owning SS daggers, if you have ever had a Himmler SS you know exactly what the other collectors are saying here. There is absolutely no doubt in your mind when you have a Period Himmler SS Dagger in your hands. At the SOS, a well know dagger dealer showed me a Himmler that was in a chain scabbard that he had veteran purchased. Before I removed the dagger and looked at the reverse of the blade, I told him that it had either an Eickhorn Rohm or Himmler inscription on the reverse of the blade. He was shocked that I was right........... . JR

I am sorry if made anyone upset by my last post but if you think as an unexperienced collector you going to know if it is totally original Himmler dagger from reading the information on this forum then you are mistaken. There is no replacement for hands on experience. Like reference book they are just pictures. Be it in your mind or imagined.

Gailen David

Gailen David

Gailen,
You did not upset anyone but merely told the truth, and it is extremely frustrating to listen to these "new boys" coming up with there unsubstantial theories about the perfect faked Himmler.


They've been collecting for a short period of time and they already know everything and want to rewrite history with their divine truth.
Geeeeeeee, give me a brake !


Nice Himmler JR, here's my only fake and it ain't for sale even at $ 15,000
Get your own fake from the Czech Republic.

Fortunately or unfortunately I'll never be able to afford a Himmler... But it is most interesting to see these beautiful daggers being subjected to all of your expertise...Gailen...if I could ever afford one...Staehle told me to buy it from U...

[QUOTE]Not all are in "minty" or "high excellent" condition, but most seem to be. /QUOTE]
Don't forget that this was the 'second SS dagger' the fellow owned. That would weigh in favor of the Himmler possibly not receiving the same wear as if he 'only had one' dagger.

fatguy, you never know. I had lost hope on a full Rohm and bought one extremely reasonably a few months ago. Same with the two Himmlers I have. One was acquired through a very reasonable trade with a collector the other was bought for way, way below market value from a non-militaria collectibles dealer, who apparently thought it was just another SS dagger. Keep diggin', stay alert and you may be surprised at what pops up.

quote:

There is no replacement for hands on experience.

I'm 62 years old. I've noticed a trend not only in collecting but in the business world as well that simply does not assign much value to experience.

I once had a woman who was 'assigned' to supervise me who was mid 30s, perky and with spiked hair. I had supervised up to 30 individuals and had 25+ years experience. Her supervisory experience was ZERO-ZIP-ZILCH-NADA. She had so little human relations skills that she told me straight out that she wasn�t going to 'hold my experience AGAINST me' -- nice.

After 6 months of that lash-up I decided to let someone else have the fun of participating with her in her learning curve and I moved on.

Like Gailen said -- There is NO SUBSTUITUTE for experience.

quote:

Originally posted by Texasuberalles:
Like Gailen said -- There is NO SUBSTUITUTE for experience.

AMEN !

I've been convinced on the Himmlers, the Rohms are more interesting to me. But I wouldn't mind starting on the SS - only I'd like to start with an SS Rohm & work backwards. Mucho bucks though, think I'll go back to "lesser" daggers - next stop is a nice Forestry.....

The more I think about this conversation, The more I begin to consider the idea that very little that is new in this hobby is left to be discovered. At least as far as definitive "textbook" information is concerned. I'm sure that there will always be the strange "anomalie" or variation from the norm in any given dagger type out there (or TR militaria in general), but only slight variation from the mainstream reality in any given topic of third reich militaria seems to exist any longer - most every relative tidbit of information about every subject in TR militaria seems to have already been discovered and documented in some form or another, and appears to be available to all who are willing to seek it out.

All of the subjects that ever seem to be a "hot" topic in this Forum (and all of the others) always lead to meaningless controversy. We seem to only get excited over the most minute textbook variation in any subject matter, soap opera about the latest gossip, or argue over simple "conspiracy' issues (and I'm definitely not innocent). I really feel this may be the result of nothing better left to discuss - at least nothing that we don't already know or haven't learned. It seems that all of the truly interesting information about TR militaria in general has already been exhaustively divulged - a "been there, done that" feeling about all TR militaria in general any more.

Maybe that is why all of the bad feelings, arguing, and frustrations seem to continue to reverberate on this Forum (and all of the others). Nothing new and exciting to discuss, and always struggling to find some excitement to keep coming back for?

I sometimes wonder why anyone even attempts to participate in any TR militaria Forum discussions any longer when all of the information they really seek can be completely and thoroughly found previuosly documented in some form or another void of requiring human interaction and discussion. Maybe it's better to just continue reading the books and past threads on websites, and conscientiously avoiding wasting time drumming up discssions of information here that has already been documented and can be found otherwise?

Is it just me, or does it seem like the only thing left to do around here is post pretty pictures of each others "toys" and gloat? Is their nothing new left to really discover and excite the subject matter like that which was happening five years ago? TR militaria discussion in general just seems very stale any more . . .

Brad

You know Brad, you make a real good point.

Gailen David

?

Jim,

Klittermann & Moog. Police Sword ?

Dave

Dave:
This one sold on Ebay awhile back for around $1400* and is in fact by K&M. T Wittmann has examined the pictures and agrees it's 100% legit. by this previously unknown maker of police swords. Tom told me he "wished he would have known about it when he was doing his SS book".

*This probably set a new record for a plain police sword.

Quote from above "little that is new in this hobby"??

It seems that SS dagger experts can tell if a dagger is real by looking at the back of the blade....perhaps this can be carried a step farther, and a "Psychic SS Dagger Expert" can stage a demonstration at the upcoming SOS. Contestants can bring the daggers to a conference room at the Convention Center, and one by one they can stand up & say "What SS dagger am I Holding?" The blindfolded expert up on stage could tell them "Fake or Real, Himmler or Chained, old 33 Em or RZM"etc. Really good psychics could even identify the makers mark. I'm sure this would beat the stale old lectures or discussions for attendance.

No wonder collectors don't post here any more.