UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum How many Himmlers out there?

I think that the 15 Himmlers at the MAX were (probably) real - the price just reflects that demand heavily outways supply on all SS stuff, not just daggers. After time the prices on Teno Leaders & NPEAs will probably rise if collectors educate themselves & create the demand. We may never know the amount of Himmler daggers created - those records may be lost to time. It will always be impossible to know how many full Rohms are left, as they were actively destroyed, unlike the Himmlers. Therefore it stands to reason there would be more Himmlers around.

To Pat:
Are there any scientific and reliable test (something like DNA for dagger) to find out the age of the Himmler etch? if no then all we can do is to speculate it is real of fake. I personally, stay away from any daggers with any dedications. IMO I prefer to buy twenty 100% real SAs for the price of One Himmler. Again that is only my opinion. I agree with Pat that majority of us here collecting out of pleasure not out of business. But I do not think that even 0.1% of doubt will justify spending 15K on a Himmler. When I started collecting a few years ago I spent about 14K on fake or parts daggers. Thanks to this forum, I did not stop collecting and now can see a difference between a fake SS or a fake or parts SA from an unmessed one. But when it comes to dedicated or personalized daggers, we really have no scientific method that I know of to find out if a dedication is a period made or not. When TM says it is real, he just looks at it that is all. How reliable it can be? Yes he is an expert but he is also a human. Everything can be copied or counterfeited. Money, pieces of art, watches, jewelry name it. I knew a very talanted jewler who could copy Faberje work so nicely even big auction houses could not know the diffence and sold some of his staff. Another time, I was offered a Russian Royal Hunting Dagger by one dealer withoug a scabbard. I did not buy it. In about 2 months the same dealer showed me the same dagger again, but this time with a scabbard. You should see that piece of art! It was an exact copy of an original. Done here in US. It was hand made and absolutely identical to the original. Same patina, old leather, perfect fot, etc. The dealer was honest to say that it is a copy. For any of you who can be in NYC area, please visit 47th street and you will be amazed how many perfect copies of fake Carties, Tiffanies, etc you can buy. In my opinion, everything can be copied and faked. Himmlers are very easy. Just modify an original dagger. It will triple the price. Pat, we will never know about perfect fakes simply because there is not scientific evidence to find out about a Himmler inscription being added or not. But we cannot be 100% positive, simply like that!
I personally would not buy any of Himmlers because:
1 Knowing that SS was such a highly organized entity how come there is no records on how many Himmlers were produced.
2. If a few were produced how come so many of them on dealers sites or shows
3.All of them in such mint condition (very suspecious)
4. Finally, show me a "DNA" test for daggers (there is no such I guess)

I collect for pleasure of collecting. When I buy a thing I want it to be in an unmessed conditon. It makes me feel good. This is not a case with Himmlers, though. Please educate me if I am wrong.

Oleg,

If we can meet at the SOS show, I will prove to you without any doubts that you cannot built a perfect faked SS Himmler or SA Rohm.
Any discussion via the net is too limited and we need a hand inspection in order to make a proper evaluation of any high end pieces.
Trust me, perfect faked Himmler do not exist and after the SOS show, you'll be completely convinced.
BTW, my uncle is an art dealer in France and perfect faked painting also do not exist.
As for the Faberg� eggs, they can be copied but can in no way be mistaken for originals, just plain impossible. Anyone that has been dealing in the art business will tell you that the crafmanship used back then, cannot be reproduced.
Why ? It would probably take me a full day to explain to you the reaons but we will meet at the SOS and will be very happy to spend some time with you.

One other proof that certain things cannot be copied..............the Mona Lisa by Leonardo Da Vinci, a Tradivarius violon, and the list goes one and on and on.

Oleg- You have a good point on faking complex items. A friend of mine bought a Rolex Submariner (copy) for $1200 new. It is identical to mine (which is real). 2-tone, blue face. Real solid 18k gold, not plated, smooth automatic movement. Glowing markers. Waterproof. Sapphire crystal (face). Actually is Swiss made like the real one. ONLY way to tell is to open it and see that it has a 27-jewel ETA-made movement, not the 3X-jewel authentic Rolex-made movement. The thing looks so good I wonder why I spent over $6000 for mine a few years back! There are bad fakes out there also for $50, but there are "real" fakes that are GOOD. I don't doubt that a skilled artist could forge a Himmler etch convincingly, while holding a real one for reference. It would definitely take one of the good experts/dealers to spot it. I would not even dream of trying myself when that kind of money is at stake. Though I would love to own a real Himmler myself, it would be a nagging issue wondering about authenticity. I wouldn't consider buying one from anyone other than one of the reputable dealers who have, and honor the "lifetime authenticity guarantee". Maybe someday we will see a scientific method of determining when the etch was done. Would really help with the Rohms and Himmlers! I own a Rohm (full, SA) and don't doubt it since it is not mint (not bad though). That helps as you can see the even age throughout the etch and blade, among other signs.

If it is perfect how do you tell that its fake? It is impossible to answer the question.

I am sorry Pat but your comparision makes no sense at all:

You cannot compare a mass production item like a german dagger (yes, Himmlers are mass productions as well if thousands of them were made) with a unique painting like the "Mona Lisa", made by the genious Leonarda da Vinci, or with complex instruments like a Stradivarius violon, wich was made on order and following the desires of the future owner. This is simply ridiculous, I am sorry!

Best regards,

Herman

Pat,

Pat, I respect your opinion, but it is like talking of a perfect crime. If the crime is perfect it is not crime. Right? So if the fake is perfect is not fake anymore. All I am saying that without a scientific evidence of the etch period we cannot prove anything. We can only speculate based on our experiences positive or negative. As far as Faberge copies, the guy was doing some other things not eggs. He was doing crosses and small table watches. He was taking an old authentic pocket watch and by using enamel and silver made it look like original with original Faberge stamping. In other words, what he was doing he was enhancing the original. In case of daggers it is much, much, easier I assume. Just adding an inscription. A few years in Russia, some unscrupulous dealers were selling "original" paintings of some famous artists by taking a period painting and modifying it and adding signatures. That is all. They sold some of them to experienced collectors. That a fact. All I am saying that is the only way to guarantee the originality of the enhancing is to conduct some type of test that can prove it being period. Again, I am not questioning the originality of the dagger itself, I am suspecious of the Himmler enhancing only. After all this etch by itself cost more than 10K plus cost of the dagger. And Yes I will be at SOS, at least planning to be there.
Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Herr Mann:
I am sorry Pat but your comparision makes no sense at all:

You cannot compare a mass production item like a german dagger (yes, Himmlers are mass productions as well if thousands of them were made) with a unique painting like the "Mona Lisa", made by the genious Leonarda da Vinci, or with complex instruments like a Stradivarius violon, wich was made on order and following the desires of the future owner. This is simply ridiculous, I am sorry!

Best regards,

Herman

In english, it is called a " figure of speech !"

C'mon, guys! Next we'll be hearing all Himmler daggers are fake. Then, it will be all full Rohm daggers are fake. What next? I will not deride others' honest opinions, but I suspect some are "putting down" Himmler's because they don't own one. Perhaps there is a bit of envy here. How can you fake a Himmler? Sure, you can obtain a real grip and scabbard. No biggie there. You might get lucky and find a set of "HE" or "AR" crossguards with no district mark, or grind it off (almost certainly to be evident). What about the blade? Himmler's and Rohm's are about the only examples with the trademark close to the guard. You would have to grind off the trademark, smooth everything up, regrain it and apply the trademark and inscription, all without detection. Or, you could make a whole new blade with "Eickhorn" motto, properly placed trademark and inscription, billet clamp marks, etc., and have it look exactly like something made in Germany during the mid-1930's, not to mention making it all fit together and look right. I don't think so. This is not unlike the "smooth-tail" - "serrated-tail" controversy that raged for a while. There are certain "Himmler" characteristics that all experts and informed collectors accept as indicating the authenticity of these daggers. Until we see and authenticate an EXACT copy and can trace it to its source, those characteristics should suffice for all.

Grumpy, I concur 100%! In addition, not all Himmler's are "near-mint" Mine certainly has that "been there-done that" appearance. It has provenance back to 1989, when it was sold by one of the biggest dealers in the hobby for the ungodly sum of $4500! Re-sold in 2005, by another of the biggest dealers, I aquired it this year from a well respected forum member who described it as "being IMO one of the original "200" awarded following the "Night of the Long Knives" Regards, Leipzig

What makes it one of the first 200.

Nobody ever said that all Himmlers are fake. As far as owning one It is not a matter of affordability, for me at least, I am not buying enhanced daggers, period, and Himmler is one of those. On Max show one of the respected dealers had two nice early SAs this presentations on both of them, I took them and asked TW' opinion on the etching. He looked at it and said "Authentic..." Perhaps he is right, but how scientific this method is on authentication of an etch? I have my doubts. I respect TJ and TW and the rest of you guys, but we cannot say with a 100% certanty that all Himmler etching that are sold by big dealers 100% authentic. After all we collectors pay extra not for the dagger but for a questionable etch when buying one of those.

I don't care what anyone believes - I've seen too many more complicated items forged for much less profit than can be made on this subject!

One had really better be collecting for the true avenue of "collecting" when buying one of these beauties!

Brad

Himmlers and R�hms are a very hot thing for my opinion. I wonder how many original etching templates are existing these days. I know one good dealer in germany and he even don't touch them anymore.

Hello, Zorro! I don't believe there is a definative way to determine that. What I stated was that in the seller's opinion, by the condition of the dagger, it could have been. Merely one learned person's opinion. Regards, Leipzig

I think I can state a few things for sure about Himmlers & Rohms based on the above discussion. These things would make me VERY cautious about buying Himmlers & Rohms - above & beyond the cost itself. 1) There is no such thing as a perfect fake - the term is a red herring that muddies the discussion. BUT there are very good fakes that fool long term collectors & some dealers. Pat I think you know what I am talking about here. The idea of taking an original SA or SS & adding an etch that will triple the price is just too tempting for the forger or collector. True most fakes aren't too good, but there is always a "artist" in every collecting field who manages to fool the experts. 2) The small percentage of good fakes is so good that even by posting them here - no good opinion can be reached. They are one of the few things on here - maybe the only things? - that you can't tell about authenticity from GOOD web pics - you need to examine them by hand. and 3) Because of the above - it would be extremely difficult to get your money back - should you decide it is not authentic after consulting with experts. It would be highly unlikely that the necessary experts would even be on hand for you to consult at the MAX show for example. When you walk out the door the authenticity guarantee ends. And sometimes even the experts disagree. I would buy a Rohm or Himmler if I was experienced, had expert opinions, was confident of the opinions, and of course the money in hand. And maybe a couple of drinks would help.

Well, I think its time for most of you to give up collecting. Its obvious that the hobby has become tainted and it is impossible to tell anything forsure and you can't seem to rely on your own impressions and experience, so get out while there are still some dealers who will pay you good money for a questionable item that you feel you can't sell on your own as you don't know of any collectors who are reliable enough to make such an important decision without assitance.
I guess it doesn't matter that there seems to always be a customer for Himmler's and Rohm's and you never know when the end is coming, so don't risk anything and take leave now before the bubble bursts and you might get caught with too many good items that may become worthless due to the unending number of expert repro manufacturers. They are always finding new and perfect methods to fool the experts.
JMA
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

I'd feel confident in buying most other daggers except Rohms & Himmlers. And I'm also leery of getting into SS daggers in general because of the cost factor - they're market priced, but I'm priced out. I'll stick with my Himmler autographs & SS armbands. And one more thing I'm not sure of - the first model Luftwaffe with the blue etch.... :-) headgear, beer steins, propaganda postcards, autograghs, original photos, personality items, etc.etc. - not a problem. Not every piece of TR material affects every collector the same way. Different strokes for differen folks.

Ron,
Don't bother to explain, there's no hope and we are all doomed for eternity.
None of these wizard collectors even had a chance to own such a piece and most of them have limited experience in the hobby, and yet, they think they have found the secret to the Holy Grail.

Who are these new guys anyway ?

No disrespect intended towards anyone, but just tired of listening to so much uplifting intellect nonsense,geeeeeeeeees!

To Pat,
We are those guys who still buying the staff and keep the hobby alive...

Oleg,

Don't worry, the hobby will survive even after you and I are gone to paradise.

Hey Pat, don't forget the 72 virgins we will have in heaven and next thing you know, someone will want a test or way to confirm those also.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

It's amazing to me that anyone who comments on SS daggers without giving 100% praise to every aspect of it immediately brings on a storm of angry reaction from other posters. You can like 99% of all the rest of TR, but say anything that can be construed as a little bit "Negative" and SS collectors take it personally. I like most SS stuff. I even like most SS daggers. I would have little problem buying a 33 SS EM, or a 36 chained dagger for example. It's just that I have heard warnings on the etched daggers not just here, but from fellow collectors in the real world. Just my opinion. But it appears to some that I'm trying to "destroy the will to collect" or something. But that's just what I hear (again not just here) & I'm reacting to it. Any comments on other areas of TR never bring the angry storm of protest. I don't believe that there are hordes of fakes, I'm just trying to be safe rather than sorry. Everybody stop being so touchy & at least "seem" sympathetic enough to recognize my point has merit for discussion. There should be no "sacred cow" area of TR. SS collectors seem so humorless on the subject, just like the SS actually was, I wonder if some vibes are rubbing off....

Ignorance is bliss! What more can I say?
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
PS: We older collectors try and tell you newbies, but you just can't accept the details nor read and adsorb the truth.

I rest my case. If I want humor, I'll check out Hogan's Heroes.

Who are these new guys anyway ? - Pat

Pat,

I think some of these "new guys" might be some of the "New School"/more technological advanced younger fellows that are attempting to (and sometimes succeeding) in fooling a lot of the "Old School/more "traditional" fellows like yourself . . .

Ron (and the rest of you "Old School" fellows),

Thanks again for all of your wonderful input, shared experience, and educational insights. It truly is, and will forever be invaluable to those genuine in their respective pursuits. Unfortunately and sadly in this particular respect ("Himmler" and other "dedicated" daggers), it means just as much to those that are out to deceive both you and I as well . . .

Brad

Your former post implied that you would be cautious about buying Himmlers. This post imples that you have no problems with them. Which is right? Or am I reading them both wrong?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brad Long:
Pat,
I think some of these "new guys" might be some of the "New School"/more technological advanced younger fellows that are attempting to (and sometimes succeeding) in fooling a lot of the "Old School/more "traditional" fellows like yourself . . .

Brad, I consider myself to be part of the "new generation" and very much involved into the more advanced technological school of thought.
It doesn't mean that I have to my illogical ?
Who are these highly advanced wizard kids that we are talking about anyway ? What does it proves except that they have limited experience in the hobby ? What type of futuristic machines are they using for testing the authenticity of their daggers ?
Please, give us some crudential and proof of their high tech knowledge and we will maybe then, take their message seriously.
They haven't proved anything yet, except that they don't believe engraved blades. They have given us no proof about what they are saying. No concrete evidence of their high tech findings.
ZERO.............absolutely NOTHING !
No disrespect intended but there's nothing new under the sun and we get the same old story year after year. New kids on the block wanting to change the old world.
It has been going on for 2000 years and will keep on going for another millenium.
New doesn't mean smarter, and that's where the problem lies.
I would certainly be very curious to meet some of these "new high tech guru boys" at the show.
It could be a pleasant surprise !

Not a dagger collector, so please excuse the elementary question....This etching on the blade...Is it whats called a 'photo resist etching' or a photo engraving? Also,,is the maker mark on the blade the same thing? ,thanks,G.

You know, reading this thread has convinced me. The collectible field of SS daggers is tho only perfect hobby interest in the world. As an ignorant newbie, I reveled mistakenly in the other areas of TR, not realizing that there is only one elite area of collecting - the magnificent SS dagger! Only in this area do no good fakes exist - only crude ones that could fool ignorant clods like me. This is the only area in which your investment dollar is perfectly placed - SS daggers go up in price indefintely. And only the the field of SS daggers has the great authorities, who sometimes deign to give opinions to us mere mortals. All Hail SS! Amen.

Everybody ought to be cautious when buying something like a Himmler or a R�hm Dagger...
And when buying anything else. If you're just buying without learning first about what you're buying you will get blown one day.

In my opinion the best way of learning is hands-on. Pics never tell the whole story. No matter how many books or web-pages you consult it doesn't beat experience with hands-on, but references like books give you an idea how to sort out the "easy" fakes.

If you don't believe, - Don't buy it...

Cheers,

To the "new guys" and those who were so smart to stay away from Himmlers and full R�hms: just continue to be smart!

Leave that stuff to the "old crocodiles" and the "rhino's" of this hobby.

In the long term the price of Himmlers can only go down as dealer's greed will blow up their supply (this is actually happening already!). Prices of Himmlers will crash in the coming decade, that I am convinced of: it is just simple economics!

Best regards,

Herman

The more Himmlers exist the more profit to the dealer. Thanks to Pat and Ron I will the a loud advocate against buying Himmlers. Spending 15K and have a doubt... in authenticity I really do not think it is worth it. After all we all work hard for our money. And to Ron: Did you have a chance to check those Virgins?

I have taken the time to read some of the past comments made by our non-believers and I do find it very funny that those same non-believers, are asking us to authenticate for them simple SA's, engraved Luft, SS's EM and many other daggers that they can't even figure out for themselves.
And we are now supposed to take their words as the enlightning truth when they can't even authenticate a simple dagger ?
C'mon, give me a freaking brake !
This is getting ridiculous. We are now supposed to believe those that have no experience in the hobby but have been listening to too many gossips and untrue theories, probably made but the same con artists that they have bought their daggers from.
I don't understand as to why you guys are always asking us for help when you are so criticial about everything we say ?
Like I said in my previous thread, who are you ? where do you come from and what expertice and crudential do you have to make us think that you are all Messiahs ?
Geeeeeeeeeeeee !

1- http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/728099473/...410033944#4410033944

2-
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/160093573/...070060872#8070060872

3-
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/477091573/...270017444#7270017444

All three are new to the hobby and been members on GDC for just a short year, and have no experience and yet, they want to tell us all that we shouldn't by an Himmler or Rohm dagger.
Why ? Because they tell us so !

I can remember hearing someone telling the story about 25 years ago that there were only a few Himmler daggers because they were only awarded to those who participated in "The Night of the Long Knives". I wouldn't be surprised if somehow that story is linked to the Atwood name.

I have to chuckle over the "new guys" who seem to think they know it all because some dealer at a militaria show told them so. Despite a few "bad apples" in the hobby, known as such by most, the majority of "old guys" know their stuff, are honest and are willing to help others. Most new collectors know less than they think they do. I did when I started and there is always something new to learn, even for those with great experience and knowledge. There are many, many fake "Himmler's" and full "Rohm's" around. Have been for decades. Serious, "old" collectors are well aware of them and they are easily recognizable, if you know what to look for. This "controversy" is similar to the "smooth-serrated tail" one, as earlier noted. There was no foundation, other than opinion, to support the notion "smooth-tailed" daggers are fake. This raised questions, even panic, in the minds of some. It came close to devaluing the "smooth-tail's" and escalating the value of "serrated-tail's." Perhaps by design, perhaps not. Eventually, cooler and more informed heads prevailed and put the subject to rest, for most, at least. The situation here is very similar. Where is the proof? Everybody has opinions and they are free, but where is the hard evidence of fake full "Rohm's" and "Himmler's" so good as to be undetectable? Bring forth one or more of these daggers and have them examined by those in hobby recognized as true experts. Rumor and conjecture with no basis in fact does no good and can cause harm. In the meantime, if anyone has a fake exact duplicate full "Rohm" or "Himmler," please contact me. I would like to examine it and will make a fair offer to buy it - as a reproduction, of course.

That is how many interesting treats on this forum end: personal attacks!

It seems that the "Himmler believers" are out of arguments...

Nothing to learn about the hobby anymore.

Just for Pat:
If I would buy this SA Hermann Hahn today, I would ask the exact same question as I did 2 years ago. This is what this forum was setup for, I thought?

I know that some see this forum as a channel to attract more green innocent candidate buyers for Himmlers and full R�hms...
Sorry, you cannot win every time, h�y ...

Best regards,

Herman

The reason an old time dealer or collector knows his Himmlers and Roehms is because he has handled so many. Over the years in my motel buys, I have bought 4 Himmlers directly from veterans (at a way below market price) and several SA Roehms (only 1 full SS Roehm).
As I have said before, if you handle a known Himmler or Roehm, there are telltail traits that CANNOT be reproduced today. I have tried to explain this to the johnny come lately experts, but they just can't seem to get it.
Also, I KNOW it would be impossible to these new era experts to have handled that many originals. This is where the problem lies.
So, you need to do what PAT did: go to shows and look at as many Himmlers and Roehms as you can find and you will be able to figure out the code. Believe me, it doesn't take a superman, just one willing to invest the time and talk with the experts and old school collectors.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Ron,

Over all those years of motel buys, you have found only 4 Himmlers!

Than you should be the first to wonder where the current massive supply is coming from!

Best regards,

Herman