UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum How many Himmlers out there?

Visiting this Max show I counted at lease 15 Himmlers on Sale. If there were only 200 of them ever made how come so many of them out there now?

It is now believed that several thousands were made.
I've also heard that 200 were ever made but where did this theory ever come from in the first place ?
It is thought that these were given to those men that had participated in the "Night of the Long Knife" against Ernst Rohm.
There is no period evidence or pre-45 written proof that only 200 Himmler's SS daggers were ever made.

Does anyone know where did the 200 Himmler's SS dagger theory first ever started ?

Was there a wide range in condition?.It is believed by many that many more than 200 were made.

I believe you are right, Pat. I have no information, but it would appear the 200 figure likely came from the initial presentation of these daggers, following the "NOTLK." It is well established there are many more than 200 around. Several thousand is the best guess, as noted.

How many Himmlers out there? - Do you mean real Himmlers or fake Himmlers? I thought there was a lack of "plain" SS daggers at the MAX. Maybe between shows someone is taking early SS daggers and adding Rohm & Himmler inscriptions on them.....

I have 2 so the odds that there are 200 is pretty slim but one can hope

I have said from the beginning that there were 9900 Himmlers. This is somewhat supported by Ron Distlehorst's conversation with an SS Standartenfuhrer in the 1970s when he was told that Himmlers were issued based on the joining date of SS personnel prior to Hitler taking power in March of 1933.
I believe that those who received the SS Rohm received the Himmler at some point in time.
Originally, the 200 figure was to reward the number of SS personnel involved with the Rohm purge in June of 1934. It was further issued to SS men by membership date after that occassion.
JMO
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Neat info, so this would make a Rohm MUCH rarer! I don't see why the value of a Himmler dagger is 10-15k???? Seems to be way too many nice examples for sale at any time. Rare? Not really.

I saw more Himmers than Teno Leader daggers. Seems strange for a big show.

It is like anything SS,the stigma increases the demand.SA dagger $750.00 SS $3750.00.

Ron is right, I'm certain that were many thousands made during the Third Reich era but many other millions after 1945.
The good news is that perfect Himmler do not exist and cannot be reproduced to perfection.
It is simply impossible !
Those of us that have been collecting for years and have had the chance to own such a piece, will understand what I mean.
The thing that really bothers me though, are the theories about the so called perfect SS Himmler. This is pure fantasie and being widely spread by "new comers" with little experience in the matter.

Let's see - so many Himmlers out there - Himmlers priced at $15,000 & SA Rohms at $7500 - I think it should the other way around.

It really doesn't matter how many Himmler's were produced: 10,000 or 2,000, the demand is still the driving factor on price. SS Daggers and inscribed SS Daggers are always going to be the high mark in political items.
Next, when the M33 Dagger with a rare maker's mark is BRINGING prices over $5000.00 (and they ARE), an SA Rohm selling in that range is still a buy, so how many is made is not the reason for the price.
Next, if price was arrived at on how many were produced, the NPEA Daggers would be off the charts on price. Way fewer, especially the graduation pieces, would cause the price of these to be the leader.
When you consider that each year's graduation class at most NPEA Schools contained less than 20, the number of daggers that survived would be counted on one hand. Way less than any SS or SA Dagger, presentation or not.
JMO
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

I don't dispute the supply & demand argument. It's obviously demand that's driving TR prices. But collectors should consider the supply - then they'd be demanding more things like NPEA daggers.

Collecting SS daggers is getting to be like collecting classic cars - you have to willing & able to spend 5 figure prices on each new acquisition. When you buy your first SS 33 EM, you won't be happy until you add a 36 chained to your collection. And then a Himmmler and a SS Rohm. And then that fellow collector has that Honor dagger so you will have to get one. I realize that these are "fair market prices" & there is nothing wrong with playing the game, I'm just glad I realized ahead of time that this niche of the hobby could easily add up to a $100K addiction if one is not careful. Such is life.

quote:

Originally posted by BrianK:
When you buy your first SS 33 EM, you won't be happy until you add a 36 chained to your collection. And then a Himmmler and a SS Rohm. And then that fellow collector has that Honor dagger so you will have to get one.

Bryan, I understand you and do agree with you completely about being addictive and that's exactly what has happened to me and there's no cure for it. "I must get that dagger at once !".
Ron, being a pharmacist, has exactly what I need to heal my pain.

To All, what would you consider the 3 rarest '33 S/S makers? Regards, Leipzig

Here we go again:

- Pat still believes that an ordinary dedication etch cannot be reproduced... Even if every other thing in this world can be reproduced, certainly when it sells easily for several times its cost of (re)producing. This is really a no brainer for everyone who nows a little something about economics.

- Ron still tells everyone about his "Pay one get two daggers" theory. Terrific: first erase the Rohm name out of your old dagger, than you get a brand new dagger! Strange that nobody asks for proof here, hey?

So it is (still) between 200-10000, none of the seasoned dealers with all their decades of experience and handling daggers seems to be able to give a smaller range, ... mmmmm, it might be bad for business

Try to talk to some ex Waffen SS men, they are few left but still to be found in Germany and elsewhere I guess.

Had the occasion lately to speak to a 88 year old, grandfather of a colleague/friend of mine. A brilliant old man with great conversation! He told me this:
- He did not remember anything about a R�hm dedicated dagger.
- He did see once (only once!) a dagger with Himmlers name on it, but it belonged to one of his senior officers, "who was there from the beginning", as he stated.
- He also told me that he was not aware of any SS daggers that could be earned as a reward.

Please do not ask me any further information about this SS man, I will not provide any name, rank, unit, location,.. whatever. Even 60 years after the end of WWII, topics like the SS are still very sensitive in Germany.

So, Oleg1, MY answer to your question is :
There were very few Himmler daggers at the end of WWII, but the number is going up fast over the years...

Many honest collectors will confirm this statement!


Best greetings,

Herman

Leipzig... that would be topic for a new thread. There are a handful of SS EM33 makers for which there are only one or two known specimens. Louper, Kober, WKC, Puma, Herman Hahn and a few others.

quote:

I don't dispute the supply & demand argument.

The key IS supply & demand, it's no argument, its reality. Supply or demand independent of one another is not the same thing. It would not matter if their were only 10 of a given item, If there wasnt the demand the price would not be as high regardless of the supply. Demand/ disirability pushes prices up ,finite supply keeps them going up as long as the demand remains. 10,00 of one 500 or half a dozen of the other as Ron said.

Well, Hermann,

You are still disputing facts accepted by most of the collecting community with no proof whatsoever, no known identity, and stories no one can verify.

Tell us who you are and your bona fides to support your theories.

Dave

We should keep in mind things have drastically changed in the past ten years or so. Instead of relying on "The Shotgun News" and similar publications, gun shows and the like, the Internet has brought out thousands of advertised daggers which would have remained in obscurity otherwise. The net has also made non-collectors, traders, antique dealers, etc., who otherwise dabble very little, if any, in the militaria market, aware of the demand and prices realized for daggers and other TR militaria. Prices were much lower before the Internet auctions and sales sites became so popular. That is the "down" part. The good part is more daggers are coming out of the woodwork than ever before. The "real-fake" Himmler thing as been beat to death. If there are exact copies of Himmler's around, I have yet to see one. If there are copies that good out there, they might as well be real, as far as their physical make-up. I think it was Dave who pointed out the extreme difficulty in exactly reproducing an early dagger. There are just too many checkpoints, as well as the quality issue, for there to be such a fake, much less multiple copies of it, appearing on the market undetected.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Hohaus:
Well, Hermann,

You are still disputing facts accepted by most of the collecting community with no proof whatsoever, no known identity, and stories no one can verify.

Tell us who you are and your bona fides to support your theories.

Dave

I'll second that !
Give us the facts, not just plain words, that's too easy to do and an insult to any experienced collector.
You very well know as to why I don't believe in the so-called "perfect fake" theory and the reasons are quite simple........and logical.
Its funny that every once in a while, I need to repeat myself on the reasons as to why I do not believe that a perfect Rohm or Himmler blade exist.
Why does it seems that only inexperienced collectors are always the first one to come up with these ridiculous theories.

I'm still waiting to see that perfect faked Rohm or Himmler dagger but again, some genius will tell us that they are so well made, that we cannot tell the difference.
C'mon, let's be serious for one second here.

Hermann, no disrespect intended but I'm merely speaking in general terms, not picking on anyone in particular.
This has to stop as it hurts the hobby as a whole and serves no purpose, except scarring away new collectors and it shouldn't be that way.
Learn, read and make your own judgments.
That's how we should collect and not just buy blindly from any dealers/collectors.
Know your stuff and you will never buy a fake Himmler. I don't know how to say it in simpler words.

from what I understood from TW SS book, Himmler personally authorized each gift of a Himmler dagger to his officer. If this is so were there so many gifts from Himmler?

I am going to catch hell for this.IMO the POSTSCHUTZ dagger in the MISC DAGGER FORUM posted by Ilya is with a little work a perfect fake.The work includes the 1.Grip eagle,2.Clip 3.Trade mark.4.Shape of blade.This is just a everyday $5000.00(pocket change) dagger but for another 10 or 15 grand by golly we can do it for the customer,because the CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS REICH I want a kickback for this info.I know its not perfect but.......with a few changes.

Pat,

Please permit me to make just 2 tiny corrections to your quote:

"This has to stop as it hurts the hobby the business as a whole and serves no purpose, except scarring away new collectors buyers and it shouldn't be that way."

When I started collecting, I was helped by an experienced collector and he has prevented me from buying expensive, questionable items. Thanks to him, I am still a passionate collector. I want to do the same now: warning new collectors! And believe me, it serves the hobby in the long term! So I believe it serves a noble purpose!

Sorry if it is bad for short term business...

Dave,

So I understand that for the "Buy 1, get 2 daggers" theory, you have got proof! That is great news, can you share it please?

Best greetings,

Herman

"Het leven is een strijd!"

Herman,

There are still many people just like me, honest and passionate collector at heart that collects only for their own pleasure.
We are not all in for the business aspect, as I'm certainly not and don't think that you are either.
If I was, I would be at every dealer's set up day at the Max and SOS show and would be buying tons of daggers that I would then resell on the market. Trust me, it ain't that difficult to get yourself a table at any shows and just run around on the dealer's day and buy daggers.
Very easy !
In any case, new collectors will eventually become more experienced and will make their own judgment on this non sense.
Why would I not support the "perfect fake" theory if I'm not in for the business ?
Quite simply because it does not exist.
I have absolutely nothing to gain by saying this as I do not sell daggers for a living and never will.
I'm also known to have a big mouth ( I'm certain that everyone will agree on this one ) and I would be the first one to throw a stone if I sincerely thought that the perfect fake existed.
It does not ! End of the story.

Pat,

I respect your opinion and do not expect you to believe in mine.

But I wonder why you always (and only you!) stand up to defend the interests of the dealers when it comes to discuss these highly questionable items like Himmlers and full R�hms?

Go through the posts on this forum and you will see that many fellow collectors have expressed their reserves concerning these, like some call them, "iffy" daggers.

Best regards,

Herman

quote:

Originally posted by Herr Mann:
Pat,

I respect your opinion and do not expect you to believe in mine.

But I wonder why you always (and only you!) stand up to defend the interests of the dealers when it comes to discuss these highly questionable items like Himmlers and full R�hms?

Herman

I'm in no ways defending any dealers.
A person like Houston, Ron, Craig and others, do not need my help in defending their "point of view". They're big enought to take care of their own business.
As you know, I'm just a plain collector and never really sell any daggers. I make my own living in a different world...TOYOTA.
I'm simply arguing the fact that a perfect fake does not exist...............that's all.
If anyone out there as such a "known" perfect fake dagger, please, let us see it, as I have been waiting for years to see such a piece and that I'm still waiting, and waiting.
Herman, I respect your opinion and I know that you respect mine but it would certainly help if we had some tangible proof of a known perfect fake. Till we get such a perfect fake, everything else will always be theories and unproven hypothesis.

Very interesting topic here. I also can't understand the prices to rarity aspect with these Himmlers, knowing there are quite a few out there. I know its demand and desirability.... I have always wanted one,(Himmler) as the SS daggers are what interest me the most. Never thought it to be worth the money though. For rarity, Von Rader and BrianK bring up points that really make sense to me, as I own an SA full Rohm, by a relatively common maker. To me, this IS, and SHOULD be worth more than a Himmler. Is it more rare than a Himmler? I think most would agree, a resounding YES. Would I trade it for a Himmler? Maybe, but not likely. Would I trade it for 3 early M33 SS daggers in nice shape? Probably. Would I trade it for a working, legal, C&R transferrable MP-40? Yup. Oh no, this has got me thinking.... Sorry, no solicitation intended here, just for comparison. I have seen and touched 3 Himmlers in my life. To think I have touched 3 of only 200 made is absolutely crazy! I live in Minnesota for God's sake! I have been in this hobby less than 2 decades, but I HAVE to agree, there are more than 200 Himmlers out there! How many full Rohm SS and SA daggers are out there? THAT, I would like to know.

Herr Mann,

Again, tell us who you are and your bona fides or experience for using terms like "these highly questionable items like Himmlers and full R�hms".

Dave

Krause,

This you can calculate easily, as everyone agrees (so far...) about the initial quantities that were made:

9900 SS R�hms of which a few percent did not erase the R�hm name brings you to a few hundreds, of which some did not survive the war.
So the current large offer on websites (by the big dealers!) of these daggers proofs to me that too many are postwar etched.

130000 or something original SA R�hms must have resulted in a few thousands full R�hm daggers surviving the war. Here again, too many are offered today.

Best regards,

Herman

Dave,

What do you want from me?

Read my posts, that is who I am on the forum, just like anyone else!

Is it a problem if a member is posting his honest observations in order to get a mature discussion among fellow collectors?

Best regards,

Herman

Just a couple of comments from me on these Himmlers.
1. SS Daggers are very desirable to all TR Collectors, not just dagger collectors.
2. Almost ALL Himmler daggers are in super condition, which makes it easy to sell.
3. I have yet to see a good fake Himmler. Too many red flag areas on an Eickhorn Himmler makes it impossible to copy. Different nickel content fittings, bench markings, different quality grip finish, blade metal combination that can't be copied today, too good fit and finish, especially the lacquer on the scabbard. When combined with condition of almost all examples makes copying impossible.
So, continue to think that copys are easy to make and just continue to worry, but when all things are considered, Himmler's are an easy ID and just don't lend themselves to faking.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
PS: Yoy all need to go to shows and handle as many as you can to establish the ability to spot originals.

OK, now I believe it!

The Himmlers were not made in Solingen Germany... but on Mars, by Aliens!

AND THAT IS WHY THOSE KNIFES CANNOT BE COPIED BY ANY HUMAN IN THE WORLD FOR 15000 $!

There was indeed this NAZI UFO...



Best regards,

Herman

Herr Mann- Very good point. Say about 1 out of 100 Rohms (SA or SS) did not get ground, AND survived the war. So that would make roughly 1000 or so SA Rohms and less than 100 SS Rohms around today. How many are out of the woodwork, another good question... I still think even the SA Rohm would be more rare than a Himmler in this case. Also, I would like to think the percentage of the blades that were not ground was smaller. If caught with one, (back then) the consequenses were severe. SA Rohm; more desirable? No, but more rare, I am sure of it. I agree to a point, there are plenty of fake inscriptions out there. I have seen more than a few offered for sale online, but none in person. I am sure some of the fake INSCRIPTIONS are of good quality. The rest of the dagger would have to be good (original) in order to even fool a rookie collector though IMO. Isn't 3-finger Louie getting good at inscriptions now? If only my SA Rohm was an SS.....

Hey Herrmann, I did read somewhere that the Nazis did actually try to contact aliens, no B.S.!

Well said Herr Mann... The Himmler HAS to be the most common rare dagger There are just WAY too many of them around, and they keep popping up all over the place, usually minty. I would have thought more of them would be locked into collections by now, they are an easy find indeed...

Red

There was just one for sale not too long ago here in the classifieds. It looked nice. From a reputable seller though, so I know it was good. Forgot what the price was, but it was not that terrible.

quote:

Originally posted by Herr Mann:
Krause,

This you can calculate easily, as everyone agrees (so far...) about the initial quantities that were made:

9900 SS R�hms of which a few percent did not erase the R�hm name brings you to a few hundreds, of which some did not survive the war.
So the current large offer on websites (by the big dealers!) of these daggers proofs to me that too many are postwar etched.

130000 or something original SA R�hms must have resulted in a few thousands full R�hm daggers surviving the war. Here again, too many are offered today.

Best regards,

Herman

Are these numbers actual produced daggers or intended production?
I seem to remember from an earlier thread that the number 9900 for SS was taken more or less out of thin air??

Cheers

Tor, the number, 9900, was the number of qualified SS members by entry date. This is the same number of SS members who were awarded the Rohm SS M33 Dagger by date according to the Rohm distribution standards. So the number does not come out of the air.
Also, as the Himmler dagger was given much after all the SS men who were able to receive the dagger, they already had the Rohm dagger (which most had ground the Rohm name from the blade) so there was no reason to wear the Himmler and it was put in storage and is the reason that most are found in near mint to mint condition and, as most were in the home at the end of the war, so they were surrendered to the American forces when the order was issued to turn in all guns, knives and cameras to the Mayor's office in the German home towns that were captured by the Americans.
As you know, Germans tended to follow orders, especially when the home was an SS home and they wanted to get rid of all the evidence.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria