UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum M33 Boke with Leather Scabbard

Here is a strange one:

M33 Boker with serial number and no liner leather scabbard with screwed on plated over nickel silver fittings (these are thinner than the normal scabbard fittings with an unusual chromelike silver plate. Screws are NOT the normal scabbard screws.

Back of scabbard as the seam. I have seen a couple of SAs like this, but never an SS M33.

Blade is in very nice condition.

TM and low serial number:

Note screw to fitting:

Grip

Wow Ron, That is a real odd ball.

quote:

Originally posted by Ed Sunday:
Wow Ron, That is a real odd ball.

Beyond figuring out. -serge-

Ron, I've got SS-no 16738 listed as belonging to Sturmbannführer Erich Born. He was serving with the SS in the city of Oulo in Finnland and I must say that my first thought was that this leather is maybe inspired by the finnish knife leather sheath

Seasons Greetings!

Strange one indeed.As "Trigger" says,
maybe inspired by his presence in Finland
and the typical Finnish hunting knife
scabbard??
Seiler

As I remember, in one of the Johnson reference books, there is a photo of an SS officer in the front row of a formation with an SS M33 Dagger in an unusual leather scabbard attached in a vertical configuration to the left front of his waist belt. He is wearing a winter overcoat. I know I have seen that in the past, but don't recall exactly which one.
Trigger, was this a common practice in the north?
Ron Weinand

This is a ground Rohm? I don't see any evidence of grinding.

Where are you coming up with ground Rohm?
Ron Weinand

quote:

Originally posted by Ronald Weinand:
Grip

Very nice and spesial SS dagger Ronald.
great too see this . It was a similar SA scabbard earlier on this forum Do you remember it ?
LH 600

quote:

Originally posted by Ronald Weinand:
Where are you coming up with ground Rohm?
Ron Weinand

C'mon Ron... ALL small trademark Bokers were ground Rohms. That's the reason for the small trademark close to the crossguard.

quote:

Originally posted by Ronald Weinand:
As I remember, in one of the Johnson reference books, there is a photo of an SS officer in the front row of a formation with an SS M33 Dagger in an unusual leather scabbard attached in a vertical configuration to the left front of his waist belt. He is wearing a winter overcoat. I know I have seen that in the past, but don't recall exactly which one.
Trigger, was this a common practice in the north?
Ron Weinand

I know that it was a common practice amongst german soldiers to adapt the finnish hunting knife and use it with the uniform. I have also found many relic-knives of this finnish kind here in Norway where the german forces surrendered in '45.
I have not seen any pictures of SS-officers with knives, especially parade daggers here in the north.
I'll look through the books you mention

Another possibility is that the blue'ing of the scabbard was so worn, he had it redone in leather up in Finnland in '44...

Best regards,

Tor-Helge, are you talking about a Pukko (sp?)? I don't recall seeing a scabbard sheath like this on one of those... maybe I only saw replacement scabbards.

This one looks like standard German style Police/Hunting/Bayonet scabbard construction. They still make scabbards like this today. What is so strange about it? Either the guy had a preference for these or needed an ersatz replacement which was fashioned up from an existing leather scabbard or from scratch. Or else the same thing has happened postwar.

Ron please comment on the fact that this appears to not be a ground Rohm, even though it has the small Boker Rohm maker mark.

I am sure, as with Eickhorn and other large manufacturers, left over Rohm inscription daggers at the factory post Rohm demise, were re-factory-ground and issued.
Plain and simple,
Ron Weinand

The picture I referred to above may have been in Angolia's second dagger work. I can't get to my books right now, so could someone please check this for me.
Ron Weinand

So there is no evidence of a factory regrind? No wavey spine? No loss of thickness to the blade? Same crossgrain on the entire blade as it appears near the maker mark?

IF you are correct about the small TM Rohm theory, then no, there is no evidence that I can see as it IS a factory re-grind. Who knows for sure//
Ron Weinand

Great Question !!

For a long time I have asked if anyone has found a small double oval Eickhorn trademark (smooth or serrated) or a small Boker that was not a ground Rohm inscription dagger.

The answers I got were mostly NO. A few guys said that they saw one where were not sure. No one gave me a positive yes.

My interim conclusion is that all small Eicks and Boks are gound Rohms. I also think that some were reground before they left the factory as Rohm's death probably happened before the entire run of dedicated daggers was complete. Same equipment with the blade reworked a week to three later.. who could tell the difference ?

That is my take and why I call it "interim". I welcome contradictions and new facts or theories or good ideas.

Happy new year
Dave

Hi All:

I am glad to see this question come up. I have the documentary evidence that the Ehrendolch was still being awarded immediately after 4 July 1934. My thoughts have been that the "factory ground" Röhm's were altered or modified in the factory and distributed after 4 July 1934 since the order for the inscription removal said that the grinding was to be done locally to save on the cost.

Happy New Year!

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

I agree with Dave, why in the world would ANY manufacture toss out a perfectly good blade just because they did not etch the Rohm. There is still a trademark, with a QC passed blade, so why not just use them up...... save some scrap cost.

Regarding this type of scabbard, there is a period pic in one of TJ's booty books (Booty Vol 5, page 31) showing Russian and American troops together in May 1945. Tom notes the scabbard sticking out of the Russian's coat, where you can clearly see two indentations running down the scabbard, very similar to the one that Ron shows in this discussion.

Bob

ooppss... the pic is from April, not May 1945. Even better. That way no one can say the piece was made "post-war" for occupation troops.

I have seen SA dagger which also hade leather scabard but as i recol it was made in the same maner as police bayonet leather scabard, so were this leather tipe scabards made by dagger producer or by someone alse?

These are around for sure, I've seen SA's, Johnson shows one on pg 137 of Vol IV. This is the 1st SS though! Nice find Ron!!

Once you have this piece in hand, there is no doubt. I now have been contacted by another collector who also has one that is amost identical.
If you look at the photos of this piece, you can see that the fit is very good and the finish to the scabbard fittings shows much even wear.
Also, the finish to the fittings on the scabbard is not unlike others I have seen. While it looks like a chrome plating, it is not and more of a silvering with a bright finish. I have seen a few political form daggers with this finish on all fittings to include the crossguards, but rather scarce.
Ron Weinand

I really like those scribed lines on either side. I looks like a factory job or at the very least a proffessional who did it!!
Very cool.
Ron It's really great that you are willing to share!
Paul

Now the big question is, is it worth more or less than a textbook standard SS dagger ?

I will let you all decide since it is going to be forsale.
Ron Weinand

Definitely not more IMO.Just a regular dagger with a controversial scabbard you will waste your time explaining its originality.Not worth the effort.


Edited for personal insult

Dave

Hi All:

Always interesting and often tough to put a face with the artifact. This is Obersturmführer Erich Born, SS No. 16 738 about 1935. His right collar tab reads "M5" when he was with the 5. SS Motorstandarte. Did he qualify for the Ehrendolch and, if so, could he have received this one? Stay tuned.

Happy New Year!

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

Hi All:

Here is portion of Erich Born's SS-Stammrolle that you might find of interest and relevant to this dagger. You will notice in column 1 that he became a SS-Mann on 30 November 1931 which qualified him for receiving the Ehrendolch since he was in the SS on or before 31 December 1931 with continuous SS service after that time. In column 2, we see noted that he had received the Ehrendolch (they always drew a line through the selection that did not apply). These Honor Daggers were still being received from the factories and distributed after the 4 July 1934 order to remove the Röhm inscription. Since the daggers were such an important part of the SS culture and many of these men may have already had their Dienstdolch, it would seem logical for a manufacturer to maintain usage of the smaller logo after the "factory ground" blades were sent out as a physical sign for the recipient that he was actually receiving an Ehrendolch when the Röhm inscription was forbidden. You just know some of these SS guys had to be playing "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" at their musters and quickly became aware of the nuances of differences.

And as for where the photo I posted came from, it happened to be attached to his Stammrolle which is very rare. His NSDAP membership file card also still has a photo attached of him which is also lucky since more than half were pulled off and destroyed before the end of the war to hide identities.

Happy New Year!

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

Very good Ross.
You always leave the SSZA number out of sight.
Seiler (Doug)

Great to see this additional info
Thanks for your work Ross!

Best regards,

an early bird man