Alcoso SS Leader Degen-Do they exist ?

Hello Gent's,
i ever read that Alcoso made SS leader swords.Wittmann wrote this in his great SS book too.Anybody here with an Alcoso leader ?I am glad to hear comments.
Best

Do you mean the SS-F�hredegen?
I just prefer them with the 1st & 2nd style Krebs lobster or unmarked. In Wittmans book is not everything nice detailed described example the details for the F�hredegen or example for the R�hm daggers. Not that I would to make the book bad no it is the best one I have seen and have. But the shown skull and eagle in the book I don't like all other things are super!

Hello Robert,
yes,i mean the F�hrerdegen.I am absolutely with you.In Wittmanns book is not an Alcoso pictured,but he referred about Alcoso as a period maker .

Mu understanding is no. Alcoso was a Jewish firm and did make SS items. The made police degens, but that was thier limit.

Please correct me on this if i'm wrong.

quote:
Originally posted by Sword-Fish:
Mu understanding is no. Alcoso was a Jewish firm and did make SS items. The made police degens, but that was thier limit.

Please correct me on this if i'm wrong.

Hello Sword,

yes,your statement is right.But this is that was we read "official" in the post war edged weapon literatur.Is this true ?

Back to the leaders :anybody here with an alcoso .

I'm not clear on exactly what your subsequent question is. I don't recall seeing any legitimate SS pieces that were produced by ACS. As far as official documentation to support that, i'm not aware of any. Perhaps someone else can further speak your question.

Hi Sword,
i mean : is a period direction knowing,that identify an order that the alcoso company forbid produce SS daggers and swords and also SA daggers ?,or is this only a theory .

Best

Hi Tobau,
I now understand what you are asking.

I'm not sure nor do I imagine that anyone will be able to locate any company doctrine statinig the making of SS peices is prohibited. The frim made just about every other edged weapon for the Reich, including police pieces, but they never went so far to build m33s,m36s, or SS degens. It wasn't that the State had prohibited the company from doing so, just an internal "moral compass". I think it'll be very difficult to locate internal firm correspondance that survived the war where the policy barred the creation of SS pieces. Again, it was explained to me early on in my collecting career that the firm was of Jewish ancestory and had to walka fine line between the German state and thier business practices.

Hope this helps a little but probably doesn't answer your entire question. I think one of your best bets might be to contact Col. Tom Johnson. During his tenure of reference book writing, he has come accross alot of company correspondance. He may be better suited to provide a more accurate answer to you question.

The Alexander Coppel company was �Aryanized� in 1936, and the original owners were forced to leave. The company made a very large number of police bayonets both before and after it was Aryanized. And Himmler was the head of both the SS and the German Police. Also, Alcoso did make some rather unique prototype SS daggers. That said - there is scarce evidence that they actually made either the SS F�hrerdegen or political daggers. FP

Yep

It is my belief that Alcoso never made any 1936 model SS degens.

quote:
Originally posted by Dale Ellis:
It is my belief that Alcoso never made any 1936 model SS degens.

I think you are right.Perhaps on day we are surprised with an original example .

It has always been my belief that Alcoso did not make SS officer degens until yesterday. A woman called and said she had two German swords that her uncle had brought back from WWII. He had passed away in 1976 and her father got them and now they were hers. She send me some photos and I got very excited because one was an SS officer degen. She, her husband and two kids came by with the swords for me to look at. One was a WKC lion head and the other was an SS officer by Alcoso. Both were in poor condition with the Army being a little better. The SS had plated fittings with rust on the hilt and just about all of it missing from the scabbard fittings. There were no SS acceptance marks on hilt or scabbard. The runes button looked like it was a light weight metal and sat very high out of the grip. There was some chipping around. The hilt was loose and did not look all that great. The trademark was the one with ALCOSO in block letters over the scales. I made an offer on both and she is thinking about it.

TW's book does list ALCOSO as an SS leader degen maker. His list was compiled from dealer sales. I recall one dealer had one for sale several years ago and surmise that is the one TW counted. Personally, I am reluctant to believe ALCOSO made such degens. It has long been recognized Krebs, "no maker" and Muller (Dachau) are the only makers of these swords. However, one occasionally comes across a leader degen by another maker. Some appear to possibly be from the period, others are butchered jobs, converting a police degen for profit. I have opined before that I would not be surprised if some police swords were converted during the period. I'm not flatly stating they were, but believe such might have taken place. For example, a police officer who was required to wear his degen frequently could have acquired an SS grip and placed it on his sword for everyday wear, while preserving his presented honor sword for display, or otherwise. There are other scenarios where something similar may have occurred. It could also have been that the other makers were called upon on a limited basis when demand outstripped supply. But, I believe the latter is unlikely. The principal problem with the other maker swords is that others will always be skeptical of their originality until the collecting community accepts them as authentic. Until that happens, as far as making an expensive purchase, I would stay with the current "conventional wisdom."

I cannot answer the question-of-the-thread. But I am with Grumpy. Some SS leaders MIGHT have built their own SS degen out of another degen, most likely a police degen.
I do own a wearing pic (sorry, I do not show it) wherin a Sturmf�hrer is holding his degen, the hilt with the dics is clearly to be seen,, the photograph is detailed and very sharp. When you would see the dimension of the disc (obviously larger than normal) and the position (slightly lower) on a degen offered to you you would not go but run away. But the period photograph does not lie, there were worn such hybrides during the period.
Unfortunately you cannot determine any makermark on those wearing pics....
When you are collecting wearing pics from time to time you do stumble over such hybrides. Nearly all was possible at these times.
Regards,

I've mentioned this before, but Angolia, in his "sword" book depicts a photo of an SS leader degen by Voos. The grip is clearly the Dachau type.

As Grumpy states above the SS leader in Angolia has a Voos blade but has a Dachau type grip. I guess that we will never know if it corect or not. Now to the Alcoso SS leader that I looked at. The lady called and I bought both the swords her uncle had brought back. The Army officer is a WKC model 10 something (don't have the book with me) lionhead with short wing eagle on the langet. The SS degen has the Alcoso trademark and I don't have any doubt that its good. At first glance the runes button looks funky but it looks like the wood has srunk and pushed it up. The button is real and is pinned through the grip. All the fittings have wear to the plate and some rust. The pommel is a little brighter then the rest. I will try to post some pics if I can tomorrow.

Just to update the above. Once I disassembled the degen it was obvious that it was a police officer degen and the eagle had been replaced by an original runes button. When one looked closely at the grip around the button you could still see the cutout for the eagle wings. So I'm back to my belief that Alcoso did not make SS officer degens.

Unfortunately, such is not uncommon. I have seen several altered police swords over the years. I believe Wittmann's SS book lists ALCOSO as an "observed" SS sword maker, but I am not convinced. Better to stick with the Krebs, Dachau and "no maker" examples. Even then, close scrutiny to details, especially to the grip, is called for.

Here's something on point that I got but don't remember where or when:

When I was actively collecting SS degens I compiled a database of degens offered by Tom Wittmann in his printed lists. This publication ran from 1986 to 2002. I feel the information to be statisticaly significant.
I referenced Tom's inventory numbers, not item numbers, to avoid duplication. Tom W's descriptions by type of degen remained reasonably standard over the 16 year period, which was a big help. I would like to share the results here, but just in summary. "Degens" includes officer and EM in total.

P D Krebs 41 degens
No TM 47
Dachau 29

Alcoso 2
Clemen & Jung 1
Eickhorn 1
Holler 3
Rath 2
Weyersberg 1
WKC 3

TOTAL 130 degens

I realise that everyone has had their own valid experiences' in turning up SS degens out of the weeds with various maker marks.
However, very few of us can match the volumes handled by a major dealer over an extended period of years.

Regarding "SS proofmarks".
The Krebs and no TM degens were proof stamped on one or both parts, with only one exception.
None of the Dachau degens were proved, as was the norm for these.
Of the 13 other degens by assorted makers, seven degens had proofmarks.

Within this very small group of thirteen assorted maker marked degens were several major players, whom one would reasonably have expected to have significant representation in the above survey, had they in fact been authorised to supply the SS degen.

[b]TW has a Holler right now and I've had a Holler for over 40 years. So that's two more.

http://www.wwiidaggers.com/38693.htm

This SS Degen is in very nice condition throughout. We don't see many SS pieces coming from H�ller, but this example is the real deal.

The hilt is in extremely nice condition, having an excellent nickel-plated finish. The pommel cap is the NCO type, having a nice set of SS runes at the top. Most of the blackening remains in the recesses of the rune design. There are a couple of minor scratches on this pommel, but nothing that really detracts from the look. The �D� guard is a beauty, flowing around through the crossguard area and ending in a teardrop quillon. The upper ferrule is built into the degen. The lower ferrule features six standing oak leaves, each with hand enhancement to the leaves and acorns.

The grip of this degen is the type without wire. All of the ribs remain in perfect condition. The original finish is still intact and retains a nice shine.

Niether the lower portion of the hilt or the scabbard is SS proofed; this is not at all unusual for a H�ller degen, however.

The scabbard is outstanding, being completely straight throughout. The original paint is nearly 100% intact, showing only a few minor marks. The upper scabbard fitting is the Wotan's Knot variety, having good pebbling in the background areas. There does not seem to be much darkening in the recesses, but I don't think that it had any ti begin with. The mount is retained by a pair of dome head steel screws in the lower loop of the knot.

There is a snap clip with a small leather belt and buckle attached to the �U� fitting on the reverse of the carrying ring. The leather shows age but is still serviceable.

The blade is very fine, being in the usual matte finish and retaining a needle-like tip. It is 29 inches long. The reverse ricasso is stamped with the H�ller Thermometer logo, and the new-like black leather blade washer is in place.

This is a very nice degen from a scarce maker, and priced affordably.

Near Mint. $2,195.00

Thanks for the info but the trouble I see is that your list evidently includes officer and NCO degens.

If I recall, the list of SS degens in Wittmann's book is, at least in part, based on surveys of dealers and perhaps collectors. This takes us back once again to the same old question as to whether SS leader degens were made in the same configuration as police leader degens. I think such is highly doubtful, save the "Dachau" examples. It is possible, though unlikely, grip swaps took place during the Third Reich period, changing a sword from a police configuration to an SS one. SS leader degens were considered "honor" degens and an SS officer had to to be awarded or approved to wear one. Stretching the possibilities, there could have been a shortage of SS degens at some point later on and the swapping of grips could have been officially or unofficially authorized for officers qualifying to wear the leader sword. It is also posit;e one qualified for the SS sword could have put his official sword away and swapped grips on a police sword for wear when the occasion called for it. But, this is speculative and nothing more. I am unaware of any documentation authorizing such and it would take that to be convincing that the swaps took place during the period. It is simple matter to swap grips on police degens. There are some decent reproduction SS grips around and once in a while you see what appear to be authentic examples advertised for sale here and there. Someone skilled can also swap the police grip emblem for an SS one to the point of being undetectable. It is also likely somewhere long the way, someone had an SS sword in poor condition and placed the good grip on a police degen. The safest bet when it comes to non-Muller swords is to stick with the "Krebs" and unmarked type with proper configuration. If you want a display sword, buying a police type with SS grip is up to you, but such, in my opinion, should not cost more, if any more, than a police leader degen. The skepticism for such swords is likely to remain for many years to come and such "converted" swords would be difficult to sell to a knowledgeable collector down the line. Bargains are not always what they seem. If in the market for an SS leader degen, I would be patient, save my money and buy one that is not controversial.

Good points, Grumpy.

The only thing I KNOW is that it (my sword) doesn't look dinked with and I have owned it since 71 or 72. It came with the anchor stamped long strap hanger and the felt storage bag.