Since John Jozef was kind enough to bring this to our attention and I hadn't seen it for myself I figured to go ahead and post this interesting looking sword for everyone to have a peek at. Asking price is 2.5 million from the person who has it. Any thoughts or comments on this thing and since it is Damascus, would love to hear from our damascus and sword experts. Pictures are available on this site. Sword

Link doesnt work for me but Beerhallputsch is a renown perveyor of dubious TR items caveat emptor my friend

Link does not work?

Mikee, Does not work for me either. Can you copy pictures and send out that way? Thanks, JB

Not working for me either now and getting no link to that site,strange!
Pictures are to small when posting but on his site you can enlarge them by just clicking on them. I have all the pictures but when I enlarge them the quality is very bad. I will keep trying.

Try going directly to :

http://beerhallputsch.com

The sword should be the first thing you see. If not, click on 'Goering Industrial Sword' in the left hand column.

The pictures do enlarge as Mikee pointed out. This item was discussed somewhat extensively on another forum.

The website is down, he must have sold it and packed his bags .

Here's 12 pics from the site - if not permitted, can someone please remove? Pics are re-sized to fit here, they're much larger on the website.

Regards
Russ

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

Here's a few more to feast on. Great looking sword! Hope we don't get any viruses for posting these pictures!

.

.

Who on earth would want to pay $2.5m US for this thing?...I've no problem with it's originality but come on, It's just another one of those many, "we love you Herman" offerings gifted to the man at the time which has no real relevance to main stream TR collecting! The sword itself is not very remarkable, and frankly for 2.5 million you could put together a complete and superb collection of just about all the variations of dagger/sword out there! So what would you prefer, a beatiful and comprehensive collection or this ugly lump?.....Cheers!!!

I have to agree, might be tempted at around a tenth of the price but that's as far as it would go

What this sword is worth is a moot point. I arbitrarily put a estimated value of $1 Million on it when it first surfaced.
However; I would be interested in opinions as to how the inscription was formed. Since it too is damascus I believe it was formed as part of the forging process and I think that's clear. Was the "waste" material around each letter then acid etched away to form the letters?
Jim

I agree, 2.5 million would get one great collection as to owning this thing. I will admit, I'm curious as to how the inscription was done too, which is about the only interesting thing about this sword in my opinion.

Ridiculous price !

The nicest and most desirable of all TR swords was sold last year to a Russian collector for $ 1 million USD.

The artifact was the Sepp Dietrich Damascus Honor sword.

How could this sword be worth more ?

It would be nice to see a closeup of the last 10 inches of the blade. As I suspect it has been redone. , (the lettering is just hand cut no mystery there). Or even rough machined out on a deckel (nice German pantograph) first..

I can think of a lot nicer items to spend 2.5 million on. This sword is unique, but actually does not do a thing for me.
Bob

quote:

Originally posted by bgrelics:
I can think of a lot nicer items to spend 2.5 million on. This sword is unique, but actually does not do a thing for me.
Bob

..........if it only had a swaztika on it.

Some of you guys crack me up! How would thirteen inches make you feel!

.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikee:
Some of you guys crack me up! How would thirteen inches make you feel!

My wife would be extremelly happy, I can tell you that much.

Very different taper on those last few inches compared to swords of that style..I really think it had a broken tip at one time.. Opinion only..

Pat,Haaa! Maybe you should invite me over one day, ha! only kidding! Would be more of a novelty than a tool right! Stop it now,you guys are killing me!

DAMAST, You have to stop talking like that around Pat. He starts dreamin of bigger ideas!

Site is back up, I think. I just tried and didn't make it. Keep trying! The price mentioned is wrong, I inquired and it is a bit more than that. So which one of you told him how rich I was!

quote:

It would be nice to see a closeup of the last 10 inches of the blade. As I suspect it has been redone. (the lettering is just hand cut no mystery there). Or even rough machined out on a deckel (nice German pantograph) first.

While trying to get a better look at how the lettering was done I noticed something.

Is the blade delaminating in a couple of places? FP

Fred,
Always great to get your eyes envolved because if you can't see it, it can't be seen. Is this a cold shut? Thanks.

MIkee, That�s a very good possibility. If you look where I placed the �a� it�s almost like a �scab� of metal (there might be a better word - but it escapes me at the moment) is lifting away from blade�s surface. With a possible fracture line at very slightly over a right angle from the one I first pointed at on the left. With another questionable area where the �?� is located. Not proven - but the blade shows some areas which need a much closer look (IMO). With my Best Regards, FP

Everyone can judge for themselves how serious of a defect that this might be. But when I did a little better enlargement of just this one image there seems to be an even more pronounced separation than I first thought. Is there a period record of this specific blade ever actually being given to G�ring? FP

You have an amazing eye for details Sir.

Pat......Do you know who sold the Deitrich sword?....The last time I saw it, it was here in England. It still had it's original case, but had lost most of it's gold wash. (Has been over enthusiastically handled over the years!) If you are correct in your assumption that it has departed for Russia, I fear it won't be seen again and that is such a terrible loss to us all in the civilised world of TR collecting! So many important treasures of all sorts are now finding their way to Russia. Purchased by dodgy individuals on a whim, simply because they have managed to "aquire" huge instant wealth and who wouldn't normaly be allowed any were near these items, let alone ownership of them! No doubt he's letting all his friends wave it around along with HH salutes....Sickening!....It's probably jelousy on my part, as of all the items related to TR collecting I have most lusted after over the years, it is the Deitrich sword!

It was bought from the original owner in England by Helmut Weitze and then resold to a Russian collector immediately.
Helmut Weitze acted as a middleman in the transaction.
It is sad but you're right, it will probably never come back to the Western world.
You were lucky to be able to see it.
Sadly, I was expecting to actual get my hands on it next year as I was supposed to go to England and meet the owner.<
Well, I will still go to England and see some of my friends and enjoy a few beers at the local Pub.
To be quite frank, I don't remember if it was $ 1 million USD or 1 million British pounds.
In either way, well worth the money as it is unique and magnificent.

Howard, we are ALL jealous.

Here's a photo of the the Deitrich Sword I took back in '89 for my 1990 calendar. I really don't think it was ever gold washed.

I should have added that the hilt and scabbard fittings are silver. They pick up the gold tone from the red background. I don't remember any of the names on the blade as being gold either.

I handled the Dietrich sword many years ago after it was cleaned of patina and it is silver not gilt.

Oh, I'm so Pd off about this!....Seeing that picture just reminds me how I have allways longed for it!....But it definately did display traces of gilt. Dont forget that his cuff title and eagle etc was gold wire (Much to the irritation of Himmler) I'm off now for a lie down and cry into my pillow!!!

So what's the general concensus on the Goring piece? Is this piece the legitimate piece?

Alot of items are indeed going East. Recently i've sold some Heer sabers, your run-of-the-mill doveheads/lionheads, some in excellent condition, some in poor condition, to collectors residing in the former Soviet Republics. The buyers have not taken issue with paying the exorb. shipping/handling and foreign paypal fees. Typically it runs roughly $50-60 for shipping, and paypal exchange fees. A price I would not be willing to pay when buying a common item.

Since the iron curtain was raised, a renewed interest in all things NS Germany bloomed over there. Like was stated above, there's alot of new money over there and these collectors are eager to spend whatever it takes.

Back on topic, i'll be curious to hear what the agreed concensus on this piece is.

I handled (carefully)the Dietrich sword.
It was silver.No gilting or wash.
Ask TJ.
Seiler (yank in UK)

OK OK OK....It was about 25years ago, I was just a teenager and new to TR collecting!!! But I could have sworn it had traces of gold showing between the stylised feather design on the grip?...Oh well, then I will defer to all of you on your superior knowlege regarding this item! ....Maybe it was tarnish?

You will never know where it will go again, and it is wrong to say it will never go back to the western world. Many Russian millionair's are struggling like anyone else around the globe. And big changes can come sooner as someone would think. Say never never or niemals nie.

quote:

So what's the general consensus on the Goring piece? Is this piece the legitimate piece?

Tom, After looking at some of the considerable "hype" over the internet which this sword has generated, I don�t know that anyone is going to volunteer too much input at the moment.

For myself - the more I look at it in detail. The more I seem to be ending up with more questions than I had before I started looking.

While looking more closely at another one of the blade�s delaminations, I saw something else that seems out of place. It shows up better in some of the other (multiple) images: but there is a long, very thin, straight line running parallel with the length of the blade. Not something I remember seeing with other period Damascus blades, and I don�t know what caused this. Perhaps James, or someone else who is more specialized with Damascus blades can enlighten me as to reason why this seems to be present? Best Regards, FP

Fred-
Thank you for the opinion and info. A very interesting thread and i'll be curious to see where this one finally lands.

t

Fred - I would like to offer my "explanation" for the line which you have pointed out. As we all know, Damascus is done by layering metal over and over. When it was then shaped, it was done in multiple levels, hence the line and hence the ridge. I personally do not see any issue with that. If it were done at one angle, the line would not be there and the pattern would match up precisely. Just my 50 cents.

P.S.: It's a very interesting sword and I have looked at it over and over .. and fascinates me.

JAN

Jan, I find it interesting to look at as well trying to get a better feel for it. I understand what you are saying, and I�ve only looked at some (not all) of the of the images closely. I also think that there are only a few that show very limited portions of the back side, so they are not really that useful IMO for comparison.

But it�s not just folding, there is a lateral displacement as well. And it seems to run from the stub end at the hilt to just short of the blade tip (the attached image showing the displacement close to the tip). Using the line as a boundary, with a blade that is close to four feet long - that�s a long way to maintain that much uniformity without some crossover or merging. And so far, I have not seen it repeated like that elsewhere on the blade.

Also, why are some of welds coming apart like that. Best Regards, Fred

Very interesting discussion. Fred, here are 6 pics of the reverse blade.

Regards

Russ

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

Russ, I don't have the time to look at them more closely at the moment, but I think that I can see a boundary line in at least one of them. And another place where the blade might be delaminating?

Thank You !!!

With Best Regards, Fred

I�ve only had time to look more closely at one image. Which besides some random pock marks, shows upon closer examination what looks more like a cold shut (bad weld) instead of an actual delamination of the layers. Also, what in the image seems to be multiple knife edge boundary lines with lateral displacement. FP

After finding some more possible evidence of bad welds (etc.) - I decided to take a little better look at what seems to be the almost perfectly preserved hilt and grip.

By all accounts Reichsmarshall G�ring was fond of blades, so I can understand the purpose of a special sword being commissioned to gain favor with him. I can also understand a blade smith having a bad day or two at the forge. But the grip is basic metal working. Another �bad day� at the sword works? FP

After looking at the first few pictures there is nothing about this sword that I like at all.It does not look like genuine Damascus to me and I find the quality severly lacking..do you guys actually like it?????I wouldn't touch it if offerred to me for $2500.00.....cheers Ryan and it is ugly to boot!!!!

Ryan,
I don't know damascus however I have been in Toledo, Spain and have seen better grip scalloping than the image that FP just showed on junk Toledo swords.
On another site there was supposed to be a big "Story of the Decade" all about this sword with "Rock Solid Provenance". It never came out and the promoter has not been heard from since.
Now with what FP shows us and the fact that it ended up with "BeerHallGreg" of Solingen- Berlin fame...I wouldn't spend 25K on this either. Others may think different and that's OK. Perhaps they would also want to buy a long forgotten Jar of SS Totenkopf Rings from Wewelsburg castle.

The one thing I learned in this hobby is on something like this you better really watch itbecause it can really ruin your taste about collecting.
Thanks for the indepth look on this FP. Your the first that looked at the grip. Everyone else was looking only at the blade.

-serge-

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Serge (aka Wagner):
Ryan,
On another site there was supposed to be a big "Story of the Decade" all about this sword with "Rock Solid Provenance". It never came out and the promoter has not been heard from since.

You're so right Serge, Bruce Petrin and his gang of monkey followers "on the other web site" have been extremelly quiet about the so-called "Story of the Decade".

Way to go Mister Keys, now everyone is convinced that you are trully a "space cadet".


Frogprince, I'm very much impressed by your analysis and knowledge about the art of damascus.

Good work !

What a 'flame out', that was supposed to be a BIG story. Looks like a bad prop in a bad movie. No wonder Goring sent it back, or maybe never took it and let it stay at the factory.

Mark

Not everything,particularly a one off piece such as this one, is going to conform to current day collectors expectations;especially presentation items. One only has to go back and look at the Amman dagger,which I got to examine first hand,to understand this.
I have watched damascus being forged into blades with my own eyes and discussed this subject with various makers. They will all tell you it is an imprecise art more than a science. Morover;the larger the piece is the more difficult the forging becomes. I doubt if there's anyone today who could forge that blade with raised damascus lettering.
Is this a legit example that was made for Goering? I for one won't judge it until it has been examined by someone more knowledgeable than me. However if you want to see a really butt ugly example of a Goering presentation sword I'll direct you to T Johnsons "World War II German War Booty" P.21 where the Mussolini presentation sword is pictured.
Jim

Most of my �hands on� experience is with Imperial era Damascus.

One of the things I was trying to get some input on from TR era Damascus collectors was as regards how the Damascus itself was done on this blade, as compared to other known examples of period work. Which is part of the reason I presented what I was seeing the way that I did.

Here is another view of a different portion of the grip.

PS: From the images, the lettering is not raised in the sense of it being in relief. It is cut into the metal with a rotary engraver and/or some other combination of tools. With what clearly seems to be rotary engraving with some portions.

Best Regards to All, FP

Fred:
I see no evidence of rotary cutting and besides, How long would it have taken to do this?
Perhaps you can see something in the pictures I can't make out. The other option I considered but ruled out was acid etching as this would have undercut the lettering as well.
Again: I think a hands on examination of this sword will be required to make a definitive judgement.
I am very leery of the story of how the sword supposedly surfaced and even more leery of the person who purportedy has it in his possession. I for one am going to take a sit back and wait and see position here.
Jim

Jim, I've got some things to do until late this afternoon. But in the interim, here is a piece of an earlier image that shows some of what I am talking about. Notice the combination of circular swirl marks inside the lettering channel. Best Regards, FP

For what it is worth, I just checked the website and it seems to be functioning fine. I also want to add a "ditto" to all that has been said to this point. Stupid Money! RG88

Fred:
There's little question in my mind that the inscription was at least "cleaned up" manually with tools. I agree you can see evidence of this in the picture.
BTW: The upper flaw(marked in red) appears to be a delamination while lower flaw in the picture appears to be a cold shunt.
Jim

Jim, My recollection from an earlier look was rotary engraving, with possibly some cleanup with a chisel or chisels (etc). Yes, that�s a cold shut, but what was really of interest to me wasn�t just that it was one of the (multiple) bad welds. It was a bad weld with what looks like the layer or layers that were pulling away from the main body of the blade (in effect delaminating). Got to go! Best Regards, FP

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pat:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Serge (aka Wagner):
Ryan,
On another site there was supposed to be a big "Story of the Decade" all about this sword with "Rock Solid Provenance". It never came out and the promoter has not been heard from since.

You're so right Serge, Bruce Petrin and his gang of monkey followers "on the other web site" have been extremelly quiet about the so-called "Story of the Decade". .
QUOTE]

Guess I'm a out of the loop guy whats that story??? no I dont want to join yet another forum to read the story. If someone can just give me the readers digest or cliff note story?? or can i read it somewhere??
Bret Van Sant

Many of the answers on how the blade is made will be found in the Book (Damascus steel) By Manfred Sachse Printed in English. This pattern is called Turkish.. This is a Very must have book for blade collector. I have been to his forge a few times and also have been to the forge of the man he sold his business to. There are damascus smiths today who can make Turkish Damascus sword blades. Regards: James This post should go before COG- HAMMER

quote:

Jim, My recollection from an earlier look was rotary engraving, with possibly some cleanup with a chisel or chisels (etc).

This was also mentioned in my earlier post

During one of my frequent lapses in judgement, I went on that "Other forum". I read all about "the find of the century", likening it to the 1938 Goring Industrial Sword. I asked a simple question, has anyone seen the 1938
Industrial Sword since Tom Johnson photographed it for his Vol. II? Maybe somebody here will know the answer.

Yes this would be nice to see!...In fact if anyone has some nice modern photos of any of his "glory" swords can we see please?...Many thanks.

James (DAMAST), Thanks for your input!!! It�s still the specialist's who are the best �go to� guys when it gets down to the details. And I see what you are saying, but did not put two and two together. With what I am assuming is the more traditional �chevron� pattern of Turkish Damascus?

Also, while I�m not familiar with a �Deckel�, I am at least a little bit familiar with industrial grade pantographs. And to borrow a phrase that you used earlier: �no mystery there�.

(PS to Jim: If it�s still needed, I think I can go back and pull up a couple of images to cover the application of the lettering.) With my Best Regards, FP

Ok:
We've heard from the damascus technical experts here. We've discussed this blade from flaws like delamination,cold shunts etc. We've discussed how the blade was forged* particulary in relation to the raised lettering and how this was possibly forged.
No one however has stated whether they believe the blade is 3rd Reich period or a post war fake.
Would anyone care to step up to the plate here so to speak and render an opinion?
*By forged here I am referring to the manufacturing process. I am NOT in any way implieng the blade is necessarily a forgery.
Jim

Jim,
I never liked this thing. Real or not. This sword would not IMO grace the walls of Carin Hall.
Even though I don't like the look I actually feel it is modern made and aged to deceive fake.
The numerous delaminations that FP has pointed out along with the "cold shut" and other exibits of inferior workmanship had me wondering. Then the grip! I mean that really said to me that the workmanship was way off. You don't give something like that to a blade lover like the Reichsmarshall!
The threaded stub tang bothered me also...never seen something like that. Didn't like it when I saw it either.
Then I didn't know why all the mystery everyone had on the lettering of the dedication. And when FP pointed out the "circular" marks in the cavity of the dedication..well that sealed it for me.
Back in the 70's I seen what a regular pantograph machine would do. Like turn your regular Mauser M-96 Broomhandle into a rare Persian Contract. Mill out that Persian Crest perfectly. A little careful blue and a little wear. Wa-La it's ready to be sold to the deep pocket newbie Joe Bxxxxx.
So an industrial grade Pentograph could mill that out in ..NO TIME.

I believe it's a fake. And without the Master of Disasters proof of Rock Solid Provenance...I will still consider this item made post 1945.
-JMO-

-serge-

Description of the above sword from the website:

"Recently I was lucky enough to find the Hermann Goering Industrial Sword. The blades only adornment a simple yet elegant presentation overlay, of what each letter is made from hand forged Damascus steel all set within a hollow ground center line. Thus this form of hollow ground Damascus being one of the hardest types of Damascus steel to make, let alone the skill to make such has been all but lost over the years. To add to the shear length and width of this massive blade, of what leans conclusive evidence of being forged by a "TRUE MASTER" of this art form. The sword measures 55 inches in length and weighs almost 15 pounds.
This is the powerful and undisputed provenance trail. The German gentleman that I purchased this sword from stated that his father had leased an out building from the Krupp's Manufacturing firm in Essen Germany in 1946 to set up a business. The sword was found in the rubble during clean up, taken back home, and stored away at the family's house ever since. I have also received and E letter from the Krupp's firm explaining that they did indeed have such a sword commissioned as well presented to " ReichMarshall Goering " The company represenative also noted that thye had a smaller prototype made up as a scale model. As of now no one knows where that prototye resides. Wish me luck !!!"

Maybe Herman didn't like it and left it behind in the out building...

Anyway, an observation from someone who knows very little about damascus, but would not the "TRUE MASTER" have signed the sword as proof and proudness of his work for the recipient?

And from TJ's Volume 1, isn't this THE Goering Industrial Sword, signed by Paul Mueller, or was there more than one?

Regards

Russ

I've only heard of one 1938 Industrial Sword. The last mention I know of is on the back cover of TJ's Vol. II. At that time Harry Jones of Torrance, CA owned it. I'm wondering where it is today.

I can only concur with Serge's comments and analysis, too many unanswered questions for me.

We also have to be very careful about the person that wrote those comments on the Goring sword on the "other forum". This person is known in the collecting community to be the master of deception.

All of his daggers, or let's say 99% of them, are Vet acquired, untouched and of course 100% original.

If someone bought that sword for 1 million dollars they for sure would need there head examined!! Looking in Tom Johnsons Vol 1 at some of the daggers/swords Goring had...I would think he would have chopped the head off the person who gave him that junk!

Sepp

GDC 0292 Gold

The only provenance that has been offered to date is the current owner�s testimonial.

Which very briefly is: �The German .. that I purchased this sword from stated .. his father had leased .. out building from .. Krupp's .. in 1946 .. The sword was found in the rubble .. taken .. stored. .. I have (an) E letter from .. Krupp's .. they did .. have such a sword commissioned as well presented to "ReichMarshall Goering" With the company representative also noting that a smaller prototype was made, but they don�t know what happened to it.

So according to the letter. The last time that personnel from Krupp saw the sword that they had commissioned, it was in G�ring�s possession. And instead of being at Carinhall, or his official state residence on Leipziger Platz in Berlin. Somehow the Reichsmarschall�s sword ended up in storage in a Krupp out building in Essen. And while we don�t have a date. We do know that Essen, and more specifically Krupp, was being bombed less than a month after G�ring was promoted to Reichsmarschall (with the bombing situation only to become much worse).

And while much of the focus is or was on the blade. Very troubling is the unquestionably sloppy workmanship that went into finishing the handle, with an otherwise rather plain hilt. With everything taken together - I am erring on the side of caution ie: postwar. Also thinking the money would be better spent elsewhere. FP

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fred Prinz (aka "Frogprince"):
The only provenance that has been offered to date is the current owner�s testimonial.


The promoter of the Goring sword, Mr. Keys also writes in his thread and I quote, " I feel as God has blessed me with being one of the first to see this wonderful art work. "

Wouldn't be considered as solid evidence ?

quote:

The promoter of the Goring sword also writes in his thread and I quote, " I feel as God has blessed me with being one of the first to see this wonderful art work. "
Wouldn't be considered as solid evidance ?

I tell you, what a flake this guy is.

Pat,
The "Dagger Guru" who has more damascus blades than all collections in the world combined was just trying to act as a "agent" for a 10% commish on this monster from the owner. (Rumour I heard) With blind disregard to all the red flags that have been pointed out here he continued to "Pump the Flock" unabashed as a greasy town street hawker.
When some of us started to ask to see this "Rare Undisputable Provenance" he got "testy" and started calling us "Buffoons" and "single cells". Some people think that it's OK for them to play the game: "Heads I win, Tails you lose".

Now it seems that it's more clear. "BeerHall" bought the sword from the owner direct and the Dagger Guru lost out on his 100K commish he was counting on. Got ticked off and called us a few names as he fled the stage.
There was no reason to pump this sword anymore
Maybe that is NOT what happened..but when you set yourself up as a "Veteran Expert" in this hobby and act in this fashion that he has demonstrated than IMO you deserve ALL that is coming to you.
As we had recently seen in other areas of this great hobby. Sometimes the lure of the "quick cash" blinds some and then they leave
the scene with a "Scorched Earth Policy" to all those around them.
Only then...you know what they really thought of you.

-serge-

Just for the record, I did at the start of this thread, use the word B*******! (Since removed!)
Anyway....Can we possibly see any images of the many other sword variations "fat boy" received? Many thanks..

Jim, thanks for the link to the story on the other forum.I think I have seen that forum before but thought I could not read postings... well anyway what a mess it is. And I know why nobody here wanted to tell the story. The bad part is and this is where my opinions have changed from a few years ago. If this thing is the real deal its an uphill battle after that mess.
This type of thing is so far from my area of collecting I may be out in left field but.. when these speciality things were made and the quality was not up to par were they rejected and re-made? And when they were made and paid for by the companys or who ever has these thing ordered from the smiths was it a one way purchase? as is no returns?? maybe this was a reject?
I'm not trying to make this a period item I'm just trying to understand that if the speciality item was made could something of this nature be rejected by the buyers? Damast maybe thats more your area?? I'm just wondering.
if my question is cloudy tell me and I'll type a longer one
Bret Van Sant

Bret, If I get your �drift� correctly. Speaking generally, as we know, there is a well established precedent in the German arms industry for reworking substandard items. As for rejects. Sometimes a substandard item was passed on to another user that was less stringent. With the practice a well documented one, especially if there were other end users in need of the item. But it�s also true that items that could not be salvaged were scrapped.

However, for a one of a kind or specially manufactured item, it�s much harder to say. But I think logic would dictate that if an item could be fixed it is much more preferable than having to start all over again. With one other thing I think to be taken into consideration. Which is, was the item paid for in advance? Or was it paid for on delivery and acceptance? Or was there a (25% or whatever) advance deposit made - balance on delivery? Without some kind of period documentation, or evidence of standard business practices. I would imagine that all we can do now is guess(?).

On topic for the sword, but slightly off topic for the above. When I was looking at the handle, I had a really tough time trying to figure out which side was which. I think that I have it figured out. But would certainly welcome some correction if I got it wrong. Best Regards, FP

What I think is the other side (I tried to keep them larger for comparison purposes, but ended up having to compress them a little). FP

Fred, yip thats about it! I own late war re-worked and over stamed dated k89 bayos so I know it was done on combat related things. I just was wondering if someone paid for this and later decided it was not really up to par to give as a gift then it was just swept under the rug to say. I think that the post on the other forum MFC or MCF what ever ya call it! stated that this was found in an out building. The post made it have the feel of a run down outhouse type of thing but I wonder if it was more for storing things. Ah but the story is a story. as always thanks saying what i was trying to Fred
Bret

For what it�s worth, here is what I consider an authentic Goring sword that was advertised back in 1970 in a then period hobby periodical, �Sword & Dagger�

The sword�s information and description was provided to the editor by Ed Voelker of New York as �a very large and heavy sword measuring 48 inches in length with a Damascus 37 inch blade that is 7 � inches wide.

As provenance and documentation to this sword there was a period photo and discussion in 1937 by the Uhlstein news agency in Berlin.

Quite a difference from the subject in discussion. My personal thoughts about the sword in discussion is that it is so primitive and crude that it would have never been considered as a gift to Goring. However, IF from the period, if could merely be a shop or trade school project.

This is not to say that conceivably there were many different swords manufactured and intended to be given to Goring however and again, I would sincerely feel that nothing this crude would ever be considered.

�stories are interesting and cost nothing�

(sincerely interested parties can contact me and I will provide a more clear copy of this attached article)

Regards,

John

John,

That particular sword is also shown on page 207 of Jack Angolia's "Swords of Germany1900/1945" book. The photo was attributed to "Hackney" but I don't know who that is I am afraid. This book was copyright in 1988 so it obviously changed hands since your 1970 article.

George

As they say: �Beauty is in the eye of the beholder�. With my personal favorite as the �King of Crude� the (in)famous �Krupp� daggers. Which fooled more than one guy who you would have thought should have known better. With some paying, not fortunes, but still some reasonably serious money for fantasy junk.

With John Pepera�s comments reminding me of G�ring�s special uniforms, and other items. And especially his Reichsmarshall�s baton. Nothing �bargain basement� with that gift. Best Regards to All, FP

Orpo:
The 1938 Industrial sword was owned by Harry Jones of Torrance, CA in '72 or '73. In Angolia's Sword book he lists the owner as Hackney. I'm not 100% sure but I think that's Clint Hackney of Friendswood, TX. The reason I say this is that Jack Angolia sent me a photo featuring a Goring visor cap, 1t Model Luft General's Sword & funeral sash eagle, giving Mr. Hackney credit for ownership. If he owns those high buck items, the 1938 Industrial Sword would be right at home. I used the photo in my 1989 Calendar.