Quote Houston Coates:
"Just for the record this is not an official hanger for any German edged weapon. Probably for the Model 1902 US saber."

I copied this from the for sale forum so it could be commented upon. The 1902 pattern US saber has two rings as the seller of this hanger indicated so it's NOT an accessory for that sword or ANY other American sword I'm aware of..
Anyone else have another opinion as to the original use of this hanger? Most of us who have been at this for awhile know that there was apparentely latitude given in regards to hangers and,as far as I know, none of the political vertical dagger hangers were "official" either.
For the record: I bought this hanger as I like it whether it's SS or not. However; When it arrives I'll try it out with an SS Degen and see if it's practical in use.
Jim

Time ran out so I have to make a new post here. Here's the US sword hanger. Now go compare it to the one in the for sale section.
Jim

Houston is quite correct. This is not a WWII German sword hanger much less an SS hanger. This hanger was made in Germany, France, the US, etc. but is most closely associated with the US Model 1902 Army Officer Saber. Some were tarted up with fake SS and RZM markings years ago but were never regulation SS hangers.

Here is a period ad for the regulation US sword chains. You can see on the hangers listed in the for sale section where the regain hook has been removed from the top fitting.

There were variations of this type of US chain hanger including rigid links. One can buy these hangers all day long on ebay for around $20.

Orpo:
You could very well be right but I'm looking at what's hanging off the belt in your above illustration and it's clearly TWO chain hangers. That means there has to be some type of connector for suspension?
I will await further information/clarification here.
Jim

It is definitetly used for the 1902 pattern US sabre. I have had several of these in the past as I was a collector of these at one time. It is NOT for an SS sword.

Ok Ed et.al:
I am definitely NOT a collector of US swords. I own exactly three examples and they are all Navy's. Would you or anyone post an example of one of the US examples with TWO hangers like the one pictured above and perhaps we can put this to rest.
Jim

I've cancelled this transaction based upon what's been posted here. However: I want to make it clear that I DON'T think there has been any attempt on the part of the seller to mislead anyone.
I'd still like to see a complete hanger like the one pictured above.
Jim

Hello I feel a little fooled by some more advenced person in this hobby .

Tell me please if this hanger pictured here is also 1902 sword hanger ?

Gottleib,

Yes, the sword hanger (chain) you show is also a US hanger for the US Model 1902 Army Officer Sabre. To be correct some of these were made in Germany and exported and can be seen in the Eickhorn export catalogs but they were not worn by German Officers with German swords.

Jim,

The US leather hangers with two leather straps were worn before the adoption of the chain hanger. There are several styles that can be found in both brown and black leather as well as bullion faced straps that were worn with the bullion belt for full dress with the blue uniform. The brown leather and the chain hangers were worn with the khaki uniform while black straps were worn for "undress".

Here is a set of the early leather hangers shown in the catalog.

Here is a slightly later set of the bullion faced hangers for wear with the bullion belt. This one is red piped for US Artillery Officers and matches the red stripes in the Artillery Officer bullion belt worn for full dress with the blue uniform. You can also find these with other color piping for Cavalry, Infantry, etc. There were also distinctive all bullion hangers for S&F rank officers as well as distinctive General officer hangers.

The Model 1902 US Army Officer Sabre has been worn for over 100 years and several sets of hangers have been in use over that period of time.

The timing for this question is perfect since I had a display of twenty-two presentations and variations of the US Model 1902 Army Officer Sabre at a museum this weekend. You may be able to see that each of the uniforms in the photograph have a variaton of this chain hanger attached to their Sam Browne belt. Other hangers for this sword were also on display.

Well... here is a better shot of the chain hanger in wear on a Philippine Constabulary uniform. At this time (1940s) the Philippines were a US Commonwealth.

This chain hanger was made to carry the 1902 US saber in the "regained position" The top ring was inserted in the hook and the lower ring received the chain. The example illustrated for sale on GDC has had the retaining hook removed at some time. You can see the hole where it was.
Thanks to Orpo for going to all the trouble to explain and illustrate.

I was asked to post the following by Frederick Stephens who was having problems getting the image online.
Jim

Gentlemen,

For your further interest, the WKC company in their export catalogue for The Netherlands and her Colonies (May, 1935), features an example of this chain hanger. It is listed as stock number 8333 Sabelkette ("Sabre-chain").

I do not believe that it was manufactured exclusively for The Netherlands, or even that WKC was the sole manufacturer. In the inter-war period this style of hanger could well have been utilized by a number of nations, as well as those German States that maintained their own regional sword patterns (Hesse, Baden, Thuringen etc.)

As such, it is absurd to state that the chain could never have been used by some members of the early SS, albeit semi-officially. Members of the organisation have been noted - in early days - bearing a variety of dress weapons, to include Imperial pieces, as well as the known variations of the SS Sabre. All this prior to the adoption of the definitive SS Degen and the appropriate accoutrements.

FJS

Could have, might have, I believe, possibly. All this subjective jazz from someone who DEMANDS absolute, clear cut BLOOD evidence from others. Come on Fred. Play by your own rules. Talk about absurd--

Trying to look at this objectively a couple of things come to mind:

Where are the cloth hangers that are supposed to go with this chain for a 1902 pattern US sword?

Why is the hanger illustrated next to a Police sword with only one scabbard ring if it wern't meant to be used in this manner?

Please note that the sword is catalogue # 8332 and the hanger is # 8333. This to me is a fairly strong implication that they were designed to go together.
Jim

Jim,

Please look at my original statement that these hangers could also be found in Eickhorn's export catalogs. They are shown as Nr.1448b in Eickhorn's Portugal catalog as well as Nr.1459 & Nr.320 in their South American catalogs as "sword chains". The Germans made them for export. I showed you the leather and the bullion hangers for the 1902 pattern US sword above as shown in the Ames and BB&B catalogs (there are no cloth US hangers). I have no doubt that the Netherlands also wore this chain with their police swords just as other countries did.

Frankly, one can buy whatever hanger or knot they want and put it on whichever sword they please but it does not make it correct by regulation. These sword chains were not regulation for the SS Degen. Can you or Fred show us these sword chains in a domestic WKC catalog next to an SS Degen?

The argument that Fred makes is that these chains could have been worn on "...early SS"... or "Hesse, Baden, Thuringen, etc." swords. This statement does not take into account that these particular SS and Polizei Degens were designed to eliminate these diverse regional swords and were not early inter-war introductions but late 1930s sword styles.

The various catalogs show that chains were worn by North and South Americans and Europeans. Where are the German domestic catalogs that show this chain hanger for the SS sword? Where are the period photographs of this chain hanger in wear by SS Officers?

George

quote:

The various catalogs show that chains were worn by North and South Americans and Europeans. Where are the German domestic catalogs that show this chain hanger for the SS sword? Where are the period photographs of this chain hanger in wear by SS Officers

Orpo:
I appreciate you thoughts here. However your in a sense making the point. Without any evidence what were the official sword hangers(s) for SS and police swords? Yes we know from other sources that there were certain types of hangers used with these swords but were they the only ones? We know that there was apparentely great latitude allowed for hangers in other areas for edged weapons such as the SA. I will probably take some time to review period footage of SS swords in wear and see if I can come up with some further information on this subject.
Jim

WW II German Army Sword currently for sale on gunbroker.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=160579130

Guess no one told the owner this hanger was for export only! Apparentely this one was supposed to go to France.
Jim

Jim,

Got a better shot? "france" is the last part of the stamp.

Dave

Dave:
This is the only other shot I have from the provided pictures. Look at the link itself and if there's something that needs to be pulledup we can work on it.
Jim

Yep, a US sword chain and frog on a German Army sword. The word "France" (in English) has been placed on the hanger in order to export it from France to the United States. This complies with the US import law that states the country of origin must be placed on the object in English. Just like "Made in Japan" or "Japan" is required to be placed on Japanese toys imported to the US. At least the seller of this rig states that the hanger is not correct for this sword.

Here is another example showing the russet leather frog (usually called a throg in the US).

Ok Orpo:
Let me see if I have this straight. The hanger was made in Germany and sent to France. It was subsequentially exported from France to The USA to adorn an American sword and marked "France" to comply with American import laws. So what's with the German sword as I doubt this was a "throw in".
I'm really posting this in partial jest since most of your posts make a great deal of sense.
Jim

NUTS I'm sure I could come up with a original invoice (from some Eickhorn files) showing theses being shipped with 1902 Army swords. I will have a look early next week. And we already know there were used on other swords. Regards: James

quote:

Originally posted by jim m:
Ok Orpo:
Let me see if I have this straight. The hanger was made in Germany and sent to France. It was subsequentially exported from France to The USA to adorn an American sword and marked "France" to comply with American import laws. So what's with the German sword as I doubt this was a "throw in".

Jim,

It is a "throw in." The seller of this sword states the hanger does not go with the sword. Please read what he says in the link that you yourself provided.


The hanger you show was not made in Germany or it would be marked "Germany" (in English) if exported to the US. It was made in France and exported from there to the United States. That is why it is marked "France" in English and not in the French language.

I give up on trying to explain it I am afraid.



I'm really posting this in partial jest since most of your posts make a great deal of sense.
Jim

This thread is getting more and more interesting.

Looks like there is no proof that this hangers were not used in german army or by SS officers :-).

For instance Polish officers after WWI attached to their swords various troddels (german, austrian, french)....

Orpo:
I noticed that they'd said "non matching hanger" but they also said:

"Oneclickshooting is helping to liquidate a 50 + year personal collection, we are by no means experts on these items."
I suspect but can't prove their "non matching" description is predicated upon the hanger being marked "France"

I agree these hangers were used on American swords. However; How can we be so sure they wern't used for other applications as well?

Jim

.... Of course these were used with other swords... Is the one marked FRANCE correct for the German sword pictured???? NO it is not... They were married together... Were they used on other German made swords for export??? YES We know this through period catalogs... Were they used for the SS degan or other Third Reich swords??? maybe a few.. These hangers are not Rare at all and now to say these might be right, correct, standard for Third Reich swords . Buy it for what it is a (VERY COMMON) sword hanger... If you want one of these buy one , BUT don't spend much for it... Regards: James

Email from the seller of the above pictured sword on Gunbroker:
Jim

"I know next to nothing about these I just figured as it is a different color and marked France that it is not matching thanks"

quote:

Originally posted by jim m:

quote:

The various catalogs show that chains were worn by North and South Americans and Europeans. Where are the German domestic catalogs that show this chain hanger for the SS sword? Where are the period photographs of this chain hanger in wear by SS Officers

Orpo:
I appreciate you thoughts here. However your in a sense making the point. Without any evidence what were the official sword hangers(s) for SS and police swords? Yes we know from other sources that there were certain types of hangers used with these swords but were they the only ones? We know that there was apparentely great latitude allowed for hangers in other areas for edged weapons such as the SA. I will probably take some time to review period footage of SS swords in wear and see if I can come up with some further information on this subject.
Jim

Resurrecting this thread if I may.The official regulation sword hangers for the SS and Police (General rank and Officers) are shown in the beautiful but expensive pair on Gottlieb's site; originally from Art Sylvie, a bidding war, then to Barry Brown. Visit and read the text of the Probe tags. Wittman showed them. Regulations call for the police to wear leather in black or brown with green cloth backing for non-parade situations.I believe I mentioned the design in Johnson Vol.IV.

I have also seen a long white leather carrying strap with Fischer/Berlin manufacturing stamp, but no police acceptance or SS acceptance. I had thought that perhaps it might be LSSAH parade dress. Look at the photos of the SS-Police degen in use. Vertical carry is the norm. what was the scabbard ring for? A vestige of earlier use? Or perhaps for attachment to saddle scabbard. That is where the latching strap would go.

Here are two photos of the white leather strap hanger I mentioned above. It have a retaining chain also. But no acceptance as I mentioned.

The manufacturer's marking is visible here. But looking at the photo for the first time in awhile, I see the date is 1937. That would predate the introduction of the SS-Police sword and invalidate this as an SS-Police degen carrying strap.

Appreciate the regulations clarification here as to the proscribed sword hangers to be used by the SS and the police.
However getting back to the start of this thread there is still no explaination as to why this hanger is pictured with a Dutch export sword, in the ad provided by F. Stephens(see above), if it was to be used with an American sword.
Jim

Jim M. Not trying to state the obvious but, That might be correct hanger for the Dutch sword.
Regards: James

quote:

Originally posted by DAMAST:
Jim M. Not trying to state the obvious but, That might be correct hanger for the Dutch sword.
Regards: James

Correct hanger? Sequential numbers for the sword and hanger? That's precisely my point.
If this is the correct hanger for a Dutch sword and the correct hanger for a US sword what other swords was this the correct hanger for?
Jim

That would take a lot of research and I would think most of it is (lost to time) as they say . Jim M. if you really want to use one of these on a SS sword buy one but don't pay much as they are very common. That's what this really comes down to. People have told you here on the forum to the best of there knowledge what these hangers are and (commonly) used for. Regards: James

I know they are very scarce, but what would be the price of a brocade teardrop hanger? Thanks.

Jim, sequential numbers of two items in a catalog is irrelevant. Look at an Assmann catalog and find two items of sequential numbers. Does it mean they belong together? Or where they simply associated together as common items, ie. shako part, buckles, swords and hangers?

I have never seen another General's hanger. It is beautiful, but not that beautiful $ wise. The hanger for the officer can be found. I have seen them in the $300 range or so.

But I am surprised no one corrected me, so I must correct myself. The two hangers are only valid for police officers wearing either the SS-Fuhrerdegen or the SS-Polizei Fuhrerdegen. I have to look around for the Trageschlauf f. Allegemeine SS Officers. Since the scabbard is the same, I would surmise the hanger would be a tear-drop shape, bullion on black leather. SS Allegemeine SS general ranks did not wear gold, so perhaps the hanger was good for both officers and general rank officers.

quote:

"This hobby is a continuing education" JWotka

And the above quote ought to be emblazoned at the top of this forum!

Ok Joe:
I'll certainly defer to you on the sequential number point as I know you've studied this area a great deal. However; Why picture this hanger here? It isn't pictured with any other hangers.
Catalogues are usually designed so potential purchasers can go thru them and pick out items they wish to purchase and any associated items that go with the principal item.
I am trying to make sense of displaying this hanger next to that particular sword if it wasn't an associated item for that sword?
Jim

Jim M. I hope we are still all talking about the chain hanger... Right??? The Item that started this thread...as these are the common hangers that I'm talking about.. Regards: James

quote:

Originally posted by DAMAST:
Jim M. I hope we are still all talking about the chain hanger... Right??? The Item that started this thread...as these are the common hangers that I'm talking about.. Regards: James

DAMAST:
I'm still talking about the chained hanger but I can't speak for everyone else.
Jim

Quote by Houston:

Could have, might have, I believe, possibly. All this subjective jazz from someone who DEMANDS absolute, clear cut BLOOD evidence from others. Come on Fred. Play by your own rules. Talk about absurd.

Houston, of course I am demanding and exacting in the pursuit of evidence � it is precisely this kind of attention to detail that allows us to learn things. You stipulated that the chains in question had never been official German issue. Well, that is probably correct � as far as nationally proscribed military dress is concerned � but it is not the complete answer.

My sole comment � agreeing totally with Jim M - about the potential for such a chain pattern being used by some German State, or even the early SS, was simply to emphasise that you cannot realistically dismiss the possibility out of hand. After all, if we relied upon your word, you definitively state that they are the chains for US 1902 pattern sword � and therefore by inference, for no other sword pattern. No doubt they are the pattern used for the US M1902, but not exclusively so. The evidence - the hard documented evidence - shows that they were also used elsewhere. Your allegation of my comment being �absurd� appears to be lacking in substance.

ORPO � I appreciate your comment, about the same chain pattern being used by the Portuguese, as well as some other South American countries. However, I checked my Eickhorn Portuguese Catalogue, and I am obliged to report to you that the chain hanger shown for Portugal (Pattern 1448 b) is NOT the same. I also have the Eickhorn catalogue for Switzerland and it too shows a chain hanger (Pattern 1654), and that is different yet again. (See image)

As I don�t seem to have a copy of the South American catalogue, I would appreciate it if you would be good enough to show us images of the chain patterns Nr.1459 & Nr.320 � which you state are the same as the Dutch pattern, and therefore the same as the type worn on the US Model 1902. It will help to clarify matters.

I do agree with Jim M�s submission, that this chain pattern could have been used on the early SS Sabres � and I did state that was in the period prior to the adoption of the standardized Degen pattern. One feature that is absolutely clear is that the production of SS Sabres in the early period was less regulated than that of SS daggers. There were a lot of variations from different companies � Eickhorn, WKC (two types), possibly Weyersberg, and others. With such a variety of Sabres being utilized, it would be hardly surprising if some odd variants of the sword hanger found their way into use.

So will we find photographic evidence that shows a similar sword hanger being carried by the early SS? Well, it is such a difficult thing to see on a photo, I suspect that this will preclude any possibility of observing such a feature. Do I think this style of sword hanger was carried by the early SS? Well, no � at least no more so than any of the other obscure hangers which were commercially available at the time. And that is the crux of this issue � there were numerous SS sword variations. Who is to say that there was no variation in individual choices of sword hanger?

FJS

Klaus Patzwall's magazine "Militaria" of Sept/Okt 2002 (Heft 5) has an excellent article by Dirk Stefanski on the SS officer's saber (Die Fuhrersabel der SS) that is well illlustrated with period photos of SS officers wearing various styles of sabers from the likes of WKC or Puma. For the most part, the officers can be seen using the standard black tear-drop hanger attached to the single scabbard ring. It is well worth the effort to secure a copy from the publisher.

Well. I know that it cannot be taken 1:1 but here is an article out of the period "uniform market" concerning questions after chain hangers for RAD leader hewers (interestingly they said "leader�s DAGGER"): They were strictly forbidden... only leather hangers were allowed. It also states that "some manufacturer�s own creations are not allowed to be worn".
Personally I think such comparing strict regulations did exist for all edged weapons, we would have only to find them.
Here again it comes to my mind "if you want to collect german items you have to think german" (not meant in ANY POLITICAL way!!!).
Regards,

Accessories like hangers, and knots etc. are not an area where I have a lot of focused interest. And I don't claim any special expertise. That said, when SS bayonets were being discussed a few years back, I was amazed at the diversity seen in the early photographs. Uniforms, rifles, bayonets and other items. From my perspective, it seems that in the early years they used whatever they could get their hands on. Versus later on as things became more organized. FP

FP, you are quite right, in period photographs (not only early ones) you can find a lot of anomalies and things against regulations.
What I wanted to express is that this certain kind of chain hangers, especially for sabres, were not common to german edged weapons.
Nevertheless we have learned in our hobby never to say never .
Regards,