This piece is being offered to me but since I'm not familiar with hirschfangers I'd appreciate opinions on it. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Len










[img]http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/6944204/view/HeerHirschfanger9.jpeg[/img]
[img]http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/6944204/view/HeerHirschfanger9b.jpeg[/img]

I like it!

Doesn't exactly look like anything I've seen before but... fittings are similar to other WKC deluxe hirschfånger I have/have seen.

Clamshell is just cool.

From the photos, looks, to me, like a period custom shooting prize.

Anxious to hear other opinions.

Len

What you have is classic WKC, this piece minus the scabbard is basically pattern 823 with the addition of the wehrmacht eagle in the clamshell,is the eagle pinned on, it should be, pattern 823 usually sports a saxony shield cast in the centre of the clamshell. The dedication on the blade is great, definitely a WKC produced etch. Everything about the hirschfanger is correct in my eyes right down to the 3 graduating acorns more commonly seen on 3rd Reich forestry pieces. Pattern 823 was produced during the Imperial and Weimar periods, I can only imagine they cast some new parts during the mid 1930's to produce this undoubtedly original hirschfanger.
I'm sceptical regarding the scabbard, not seen this type on a hirschfanger before, it's more of a bayonet type, I suppose it could be original but without it in hand it would be difficult to tell just from pictures, if you do get it and the scabbard seems to fit the blade OK then anything was possible.

If you like it then buy it if you can, if you get fed up with it then I'd sure like to have a chance to own it.

Cheers

Gary

It took me a while to find the pattern in my books but here is a scan from the 1924 WKC catalogue.

Gary

Hi Gary,
Thanks for your input on the hirschfanger. The eagle isn't pinned through the clamshell but seems to be cast in it or maybe soldered on. In any case I can't discern a demarcation line between the bird and the clamshell. The scabbard is a perfect fit and I believe it's original to the piece. If I buy it should I attempt to clean the silver fittings or leave them as they are?

Len

Hi Len

Leave them as is, the patina is perfect for this silver finish, no problem with the eagle being cast or soldered, normally these things are pinned but yours shows such a nice even patina it is fine. If the scabbard fits thats great also.

Congratulations on finding such a nice piece,if you decide not to buy it I would be interested. I'm flying to the Max show today but am available through my E-Mail.

Gary

Hi Gary,
I followed through yesterday and bought the piece. Thanks for your help and advice , if I ever decide to sell it I'll give you a heads up. Have a safe trip to the Max and a good show.

Best regards,
Len

Len

Congratulations.

Here is a photo of the model referred to by Gary, before custom modifications as per your shützen prize.

Minor correction... it is a Baden crest normally on the clamshell, not Saxon.

Len,
Congratulations on this breathtaking piece!

Len,

I think the piece exudes quality & that is what you'd expect on a custom ordered piece. The blade is a screamer & something most of us would covet for our collections, congrats!

I agree 100%. Great looking Shooting Prize Hunting dagger.

Two thumbs up!

John

Here are my 2 cents:
Although the replies are quite possitive i do have my concerns.
Scabbard is not what i would expect, but my biggest concern is the etch on the blade.
The proper abbreviation for Unteroffizier is UFFZ.
It is not likely that a German Shooting price would have an improper text on it.
UTFFZ. is just not German.

Best
Ger

Ger
What would you expect the scabbard to look like,? Not everything is textbook.

Gary

Ger
Did a little very quick research on your thoughts about the abbreviation for UFFZ, I have just typed in Utffz on German google and literally hundreds of examples of this exact abbreviation came up along with

Untoffz
Untffz

This may not be as you would expect but looking at the style of the etching I can tell you that it is classic WKC, there is no doubt, as far as the scabbard is concerned and bearing in mind this piece is of military issue I see no problem with a custom made bayonet type scabbard. It all depends on what was ordered at the time and who ordered it. WKC along with all the other larger manufacturers would do anything you wanted if you were willing to pay for it.
Gary

Hi Gary,

we are talking here about a price handed to NCO in the German Army, in the Army list of abbrevations is no room for errors or exceptions.
U=
Ul. Ulanen
Uffz. Unteroffizier
Untffz. Unteroffizier
UR Ulanen-Regiment
USch Unteroffizierschule
UVSch Unteroffiziervorschule

I have no problem with this Hirschfänger being period, i do have my concerns about the scabbard, the clamshell and the etch.

Ger

Ger
Perhaps you can explain why this is wrong

http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Verlustlisten_Erster_Weltkrieg/Dienstgrad

There are so many examples out there with the abbreviation of Utffz for Unteroffizier that I'm not sure how you can argue the point.

Can you explain to us what is wrong with the scabbard and the clamshell on this piece,

Gary

Borrowed this image from the internet. A period postcard, notice at the bottom the abbreviation. Unless you are saying that this abbreviation means something else? and not Unteroffizier.

Gary

Gary those "Dienstgraden" were used in the Kaiserliche Armee and were long abbandoned after WW1, they were simply not in use during the interbellum and TR period.
Hirschfänger have a long tradition of leather Scabbards with beautiful fittings, this metal one is certainly out of place and does not fit the hilt/grip and the tradition of those sidearms.
Of course we all can make mistakes, i can be wrong but after 35 years of collection ive learned to rely on my gutfeeling.
Going for looks and "quality" have set me back a few K in the past, maybe im sceptical but the set doesnt convince me.

Ger

Ger
I have looked for the Abbreviation of Utffz during the period after WW1 and have found far fewer examples as I did for the Imperial period but I have found a couple of examples, if you have the overall impression that this piece has been post war embellished then that's fine, I agree that a gut feeling is helpful in not making to many mistakes but it is hardly something to base your arguments around.
I have also never seen any hirschfangers with this type of scabbard before but I do not dismiss it as being wrong because I have never seen one before, as far as I can see it looks to fit just fine, do you think the scabbard a period piece of something made post war, if you think it period what type of edged weapon did it come from?. With regards to the clamshell what is it you do not like, the emblem looks to be properly applied to the clamshell, it matches as far as patina is concerned, again I personally cannot dismiss this because I haven't seen it before. Perhaps I am just a little less skeptical than you, when do you think the etch was applied if it was not during the period because whoever did it applied a classic WKC style etch, I'm presuming you think it done post war and by somebody who does not understand the german language as a native would.?

Gary

Ger

In fact if you read Len's comments after he had bought it you'll see that the emblem on the clamshell is actually cast in and I can state with 100% certainty that this is a WKC clamshell, you'll also read that Len mentions that the scabbard fits fine, the overall impression that I have especially reading Len's comments is that this piece is completely original.

Gary

We've lost the pictures of this piece, I wonder what ever happened to it, I remember it well and still love it.

Gary