Hello,
any info appreciated....

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Hi Wachmann

Looks to be a nice military hirschfänger, the etch certainly looks military rather than the normally seen hunting etch, do I spy a coat of Arms on the blade after the initials, can you get a better shot of that and whatever is on the blade in the last picture. Nice piece, first I have seen with this style etch.

Gary

It could also be a Shooting piece-the letters indicate Scheutzen Verband from St. whatever that abbreviation indicates rather than military. The crest may also be from this place. This is a very strong possibliity. Unusual turn of the century piece-1890-1910 ish.

Thanks for your fast responses,I was not prepared for that...there are more pics.Also thanks alot for that assessment,I would have never thought of a shooting-connection.

I did not really catch the coat of arms sorry no better than that at this point.

more of the dagger...

now the other side which bears a motto that might ring a bell to you

more

now that was a mistake-corona is the last word

more..

Now is it bad that it is not a "hunting" dagger?

last one with this dagger

Not bad that it is probably a shooting piece. Rarer or just as rare as a hunting with a location/unit in the etch from the same period and of the same type.

Thanks for the info. Here is another one,I guess that is more of a standard type?

unfortunately I lack the mini

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Wachman
Yes this one is the more standard seen hunting dagger, looks to have a very nice original frog as well, I think it's quite early circa 1870-1890. The skinning knife is a lot of the time missing, it's actually quite rare to still find them with the main blade.

Gary

Thanks for your reply.Now this is my last one,it bears some strange markings...

here we go...

isn´t this strange?

any idea what this means????

Any info appreciated....

handle

Wachmann
Interesting piece, I don't know much about these older pieces, I should think that piece could be over 200 years old, value I have no idea but some of the really old pieces are worth a fortune others merely a couple hundred dollars, interesting pommel, is it some kind of animal head, I have no idea what the markings on the blade mean. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

Gary

Don´t worry Garry,thanks for your reply.Actually the last piece I do not expect many people to know what it is.Well,the pommel has proportions of a lion,but then again it doesn´t look like one,also the red dot is strange as the piece is as a whole to me.So if I understand you right,you say the last piece is the eldest of them all? What are your thoughts on the technique of engraving on the last piece,is this done in Europe?What really leaves me puzzeled with the dagger is this kindergarten-style of pictures on it.Does anyone have an idea of a person or institution I could mail pictures to that might have knowledge on such an item?

Hi Wachmann,

Did you ever find any more information on this last, early Hirschfänger? I hope you've found someone to ask? The Jagd Museum in Bayern should have some very qualified personel to help you, yes? I know some of the European forgers are very adept at just this kind of thing so you must be careful when paying large sums for early or almost any pieces for your collection.

Best regards!

Bill

Wachmann, follow the coat of arms if you can. The crown above the shield almost always indicates some type of royal title from baron to duke Von so and so. It can be hard to trace but it is listed somehere in a table of coat of arms. If you do not have the name of the family then you must go to an Armorer. I don't know if I spelled that corectly but it is a book or list of coats of arms that then gives you the family name. There are those who can decifer much of what is on the shield by standard convention. The value of the dagger rests with the titled owner or royal family involved. David

Thanks for your comments and hints guys.I have not contacted anybody yet,as I have had no clue where to start.I get the mere feeling that the daggers are potentially valueable.I will look for that Bavarian option and try sending pics.
@violin: Two points:First thanks for hinting me on that book,which name I do not know myself,I am not at all into royals,but I do understand exactly what you mean.The book must be about the blood-line of the various royal families.Second,up to know I had thought it would be something from a student society,what makes you believe it is some royal stuff(when I say royal it is possibly the right word would be nobility,ah I don´t know nothing about that field)

Best

The crest is more likely to be that of a city or other locality. If the crest of royalty it usually does not mean that it belonged to them-just that the owner came from the area under their control or jurisdiction.

The one photo showing what looks to be a shield is, in my opinion, a coat of arms. Now, I agree, it is NOT certain that the family,to whome the coat of arms belongs, actually ever owned the dagger. I had a dagger with the shield and crown above it and it did represent a family with the von designation. Wittman also had one with the same finding. An armorer is a volume of books that some large libraries have and there are different ones done by different authors, just like text books. The library of congress has many of them, for example. There are businesses that, for a fee will research this for you but as I said, there is a charge. And in the end it may not be worth the results. In earlier times coats of arms were highly prized but in later years they were handed out or made up by many more families of dubious stature shell we say. Good luck. David

Because one of my early passions was the study of heraldry and symbolism, I'd like to offer a couple thoughts that might help...

Re: the shooting cutlass- St.H.S.V. probably stands for St. Hubertus(patron saint of hunting) Schutzen Verein. I think this possibility is reinforced by the crest with the antlers and cross symbolic of St. Hubert. Also the shield does not appear to be of a subject composition that would be expected of a family crest... which is normally a combination of diverse symbols often indicating the amalgamation of the individual crests of marriage partnership(s). In this case, ALL devices of the shield appear to be of a single theme...hunting/shooting ( bundle of arrows,a stag, powderhorn over crossed matchlocks). Therefore, I would assume the crest to be for the shooting association.. not a town or a family.

Re: the piece without quillons... this device has the proper configuration for a family crest, or for a duchy, as the crown is ducal ( ie: indicating a duke). Your best bet for research purposes is to break the crest into its component devices and look for the families that probably combined to eventually create the shield as it appears. That might lead you closer to finding an ultimate surname. Unfortunately, that effort will be long and tedious and, probably, VERY non-productive. I personally would leave that kind of research for a long, cold, winter evening when I had absolutely NOTHING else to do. You will find armoral records (ex:Reitstrap) either too simplified, too exhausting or too "English" ( this isn't a slam...the English were very thorough in exercising relatively tight control on the award, registration and documentation of their heraldic arms. Comprehensive research information tapers off for Spain, Italy, France and Germany... and, then, worsens for the Nordic and Slavic countries).

On the other hand, if you really feel lucky...

The symbol on the reverse side of the blade ( 3 maltese crosses in a pyramid configuration) are
probably a maker's mark. Identifying this is a LOT more achieveable goal. I would try sending a letter to Skipper Greenwade, author of "Me Fecit Solingen", and ask if he has any knowledge re: this mark. There is also the possibility that these are "magic" or religious symbols, BUT, due to their style and repetition, I would find that doubtful.

Good luck if you decide to pursue the research.

Neat blades.

Roger, in essence I believe you and I agree on the shield and crown. I am no expert and am more than happy to bow to more knowledgable folks. You are certainly correct in stating that any search in this field can be TEDIOUS to say the least. I can't say how many hours I sat in the library of congress looking through volume after volune to no avail. Having said that I assure everyone that crown means something as you point out. David

Sorry for my late reply and thanks for the additional info! Well,as I wrote I tried the Bavarian option,but no I didn´t even receive an answer from them.Can anyone PM me the email from Mr. Skipper Greenwade?

I have not got any further in my "research",but whomever I have shown them in hands they would have wanted to buy them I guess I will restore the leather shed and put them all three of them on a wall of mine.

Regards

A very interesting old blade. Having given it a quick look, I suppose the three crosses could be a maker mark. A Swiss sword marker would be my best guess, if that’s what it is. But I wouldn't rule anything out at this point. If not a maker mark, I don't think it's to far fetched to believe religious in nature, why not they are Christian symbols and probably are Templar Crosses or Maltese crosses like foxart stated, but could very well be and look more like Teutonic Crosses,(Germanic origin) which would be very interesting in deed. And as we see are side by side w/the one cross atop an alter. What’s even more interesting is to see what looks like a Patriarchal Cross, seen on the far left of the crest. It certainly will make an interesting study.

Good luck and thanks for showing it and all the best in finding out its origins. Please keep us updated.