Since it seems the thread on dress bayonet TM's has disappered I will start it again.
I have on some TM's listed them as common, rare, etc., this ranking is only my opinion.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

This is all the TM's that I know of as of 5/1/2008. I'm sure there are more and will post pictures when I get them.

The next of pictures will be the Non/Trade or Distributor marks, and then Distributor marks will follow.

19

Terry,

Yet another prolific thread bites the dust, damn. I feel your pain The one silver lining is you've got your data all set to repost.

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21

22

24

Ah Terry, your patience exceeds mine exponentially! A few days ago, I noticed your original thread had disappeared.
All those pictures and all that time and effort contributed to by so many people is - simply gone!!!
I will not be spending any more money for dues to this site until THIS problem is corrected. Until it is, moving categories around is like the proverbial "rearranging of the deck chairs on the Titanic".

25

Terry,

I didn't notice that your thread was gone. I've been busy lately and haven't been able to post here as often as I would like. I'm glad you were able to post it this way with the name of the TM and pic. I hope this thread becomes as popular as the last. Maybe we can talk Billy G into doing his FW thread again. They both have great value in this forum for us dress bayonet guys. And I did recognize a few of those TM's.

Steve.

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29

30

31

32

33

36

38

Well, thats it folks. Please post new TM's. We are all eager to see what you've got.

Great job Terry!

Terry,

Sorry, I wouldn't have posted had I known you were in mid post(s). Really well done. Like Steve C. said, the shame of it is all the lost individual posts from others with pieces we may never see again. I feel sick thinking about it.

EXCELLENT !!!! AWESOME INFORMATION !!! Thank you for your efforts!

This is an edged weapon I´ve recently bought. It´s marked with BISMARCK. It looks like a short dress bayonet, but it´s missing the press stud at the pommel. The scabbard looks like to be from a trench knife. Any idea what it is or who has worn such an edged weapon?

Is there a photo of the blade. It could be a trench knife or a miniature. What is the blade length and overall length.

Here´s the Bismarck edged weapon between a short dress bayonet and a trench knife.

Blade length: 15 cm (5.9 inches)
Overall length: 25.5 cm (10 inches)

Here the blade

Blades

I think its a trench knife. Most miniature bayonet scabbards would not have leather belt loops and scabbard runners. The bayonets were made of lesser quality materials. I think you have a very nice trench knife. I'm not sure if Bismarck is a TM or something else Will look in some books when I get home.

Bismarck = August Müller KG, Solingen-Merscheid

The scabbard is similar to the early HJ honor bayonets which were purportedly made from leftover stock of Imperial & Weimar fighting knives. The quality on thes eknives was very good & the size looks similar too. That's my thought, a Weimar fighting knife.

Nice job Denny and Billy.

Denny

See where the MAX may go back to Indy.

quote:

Originally posted by TKissinger:

Denny

See where the MAX may go back to Indy.

OFCOL!!!!

A version of A. Betz, Giessen

TKissinger:

I have seen, not necessarily on dress bayonets but on other blades, the following Eickhorn TMs:

double oval, smooth tail
double oval, smooth tail, C.E.
double oval, serrated tail
double oval, serrated tail, C.E.

The difference between them is the tail and the presence or absence of the letters 'C.E.' under the squirrel.

Does this variation exist in dress daggers?

John

quote:

Originally posted by TKissinger:
A version of A. Betz, Giessen

Terry,
Here is another....

Hi Terry,

I do not recall you having this one:

http://www.aukro.cz/item386418800_kordik_hasic_nemecko.html#photo

It's ZEITLER-WIEN

JAN

Its on page 18 of my pictures.

Jan,

They're not common at all. This one is a beater that I snagged for $50, Terry's got the only other fire piece with this mark that I've seen. As you can see, the plating did not hold up well.

Billys right, I do have one. Mine also has these numbers on the flat side of the pommel.

Hi All,
here is a variation of WKC trade mark, which has differencies in the knight's head. The bayonet has fake release button. I will appriciate any info about this bayo.
Best regards, Maks

The bayo itself

Here are the two WKC's in my collection that have the fake release button.

2MAX

I would guess your bayonet was made in the late 20's early 30's time period. Also your bayonet has two rivets instead of three which I think would put it in the later years of that period.

Terry,

Found some typos in your TM listings which you may wish to correct.

Your posting number:

1: Tüttlingen (Aesculap has has now Tuttingen)
5: Sohn (Carl Schmidt has now & Shon))
12:Bayreuth several times "Byreuth"
25:Gebr (now Gerbr)
30:Küpper & Sohnius (now Küpper & Schnius)
31:ULM A/D (L. Wörz has now ULMA/D)
35:Göttingen (Th. Jost, now Göllingen)
38:Zannantonio (now Zannatonio)

There are also a lot of cases where the "Umlaut" (¨) has been omitted.

The name where Aesculap was (and still is) located is Tuttlingen (with a "u", not a "ü").

Yes, you are right. Terry only has to insert the L after the double T to make it correct.

If you, being German, see more typing errors, then Terry might be pleased to know.

Kilian

Thanks for the corrections. I have changed the ones you have listed and will correct the others later.

Terry,

thank You very much for the info

best regards, Max

Picked this one up a couple of months ago & am just getting around to adding it, J.E.W. Hellgardt AG, Konigsberg. First time seeing this one too.

Very nice Billy. Definately rare and one I've never seen before.

Billy has done it again, found another rare distributor. Thanks for showing.

Thanks Terry. I've got one more on it's way now which I think is one of those unusual & rarely seen distributors. Will post whenever it arrives

Fresh from the bubble wrap, the only one of this mark I've ever seen. I missed out on it almost a year ago but it found it's way to my stable now. Has anyone seen this mark before? Hilt configuration is Lauterjung all the way, early albeit nonmagnetic as is usually seen on these.

It came with an L&E too, Christmas in September

Nice piece Billy....

The city of Lahr is located west of Bitburg, near the Luxembourg border.
The company appears to be Sautter Messerschmiede.
Check these two Google "hits".

http://www.sautter-lahr.de/15308.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=htt...lr%3D%26as_qdr%3Dall

My understanding of the term Messerschmiede seems to indicate that you may have found a new manufacturer; not a distributor. Albeit, a rather strange location for a manufacturing facility. I look forward to hearing more about this interesting FW bayo.
Wow! It really IS Christmas in September.

Billy

Looks like a nice bayonet. Is it a short or long blade.

Just how many LE bayonets do you have?

Denny

Good job on the info. I had already put it in the distributor list, guess I had better change it. Fisher doesn't have that name listed in his reference.

Terry,

Billy is creating an artificial shortage of LE's and is waiting for the right moment to flood the market.
However, he doesn't have all of them yet.

Denny,

Thanks man, I appreciate the info on Sautter. I had no idea they might be an individual manufacturer since never having seen another. The mark is pretty plain too so I was thinking distributor all the way. It's a well made piece which always makes me happy to see after 65+ years. My 5th edition of Fisher doesn't list Sautter at all, does anyone know if they appear in a later version? Another interesting thing is the leather buffer which is the thin type but it has an almost yellow color to it. I really can't believe this one fell into my hands. After letting it slip through my fingers a year ago, I figured I'd never see another so I feel really good anout this one. I'm sur eyou know the feeling

Terry,

At the moment I've only got 4 L&E blades, 1 15mm logo, 2 10 mm logos & 1 with just the letters & no logo. Only a pair of frogs go with them too. I had more but have flipped a few over the years, they always bring a little attention by collectors since maker mark guys like 'em & even people that just want one. From the pieces I've examined, I've found L&E had contracts with several manufacturers from the parts configuration although I've only found one dual marked example which had a '35-'41 Eickhorn mark.

Interesting too is that Wittmann has had one listed for $500 which is quite high IMO, especially since it doesn't have a knot. They're out there if you look, his price is likely why it hasn't sold IMO. This sone is a long model, in fact I've never seen a short model with this mark. Even for me, a short model L&E would be a stretch priced at 5 bills.

Re: Sautter, Lahr

There are at least four cities/towns called Lahr in Germany. The city of Lahr, where Sautter is based, is located on the edge of the Black Forest (Schwarzwald). It had under 20.000 inhabitants by 1940. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahr

On their website Messerschmiede Sautter write that they exist since 1891 and their specialty is grinding. I could be the same firm as is stamped on the bayonet. In my view being a knifemaker does not rule out the possibility that they acted as a dealer/distributor for dress bayonets made elsewhere. Personally, I would not list them as a manufacturer for dress bayonets without further evidence or confirmation.

Billy,

As for the Sautter marked piece, can you rule out Aesculap as the producer? Tuttlingen is a good 50 miles from Lahr, Solingen roughly 300.

Kilian,

Good question. I can't say if the Sautter piece was manufactured by Aesculap, I've never seen a period Feuerwehr bayonet by them. They did seem to be a smaller, cottage type manufacturer. If they did produce make the FW faschininmesser, it's plausible that they could have purchased parts from another larger manufacturer. Of the pieces in my collection, many of the smaller makers show parts that I would associate with some of the larger production companies.

Hi Terry,

Here's a nice Holler distributer marked dress bayo, i just need to find a nice minty frog for it.

Eric

Eric

Thanks for posting the photo

Terry,

Another city heard from. Serious thanks to Gary S. for sending an early Christmas gift my way! This one is a mid production piece that's in pretty nice condition overall, dual marked by Carl E. on the reverse. I'll send you a better pic if you need one for your update.

Another great find by Billy G. Thanks for the photo.

Terry,

I'm merely the recipient, Baz let it fall in my lap & I was only too happy to accept

I spotted a short dress bayonet by Krusius Solingen (Gazelle) and could not find it in the TM list. Did I overlook the mark or is it not there yet?

Kilian,

That's a nice rare mark on a bayonet, I would say that's a new one for the list. I don't believe I've ever seen one before either. I've seen the mark on SA/NSKK daggers occasionally & Fisher's list shows Gebruder Krusius as an HJ knife manufacturer as well. The firm was in business from 1886 through 1983 when sadly, they went bankrupt & their machinery was sold off at auction.

Can you show the rest of the bayonet? Is this a Weimar era piece?

Kilian

Does the bayonet have two or three rivets.

The bayonet has a short carbine blade, two rivets in the grips and the diamond shaped pattern on the grips. I´d say it´s probably Weimar period. Here´s the link to the Dutch auction site: http://link.marktplaats.nl/216523488

Trying to post an interesting maker or distributor mark but keep getting this message. Same as a few weeks ago.

"There was an FTP (file transfer) error. The detail is 'Upload to '/testdir/test.txt' failed. Detail: '552 Transfer aborted. Disk quota exceeded ''.

Oh well, check here instead... http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3036736#post3036736

Denny,

Was this piece an Eban pickup? I seem to remember something similar to this mark a while ago. Are the initials stamped or etched? I had thought this was some sort of personalization, maybe jeweler done initials of the original owner?

Hi Billy,
This belongs to a friend of mine. I took this picture a few years ago and couldn't remember if I had posted it or not. I don't remember if it is stamped or etched.

Dennys friend showed me this bayonet 3-4 years ago if I remember right, it was a nice piece and no he wouldn't sell it.

T&D,

Wild piece, I could swear I saw something that was a dead ringer to it on Eban within the last year. Maybe it isn't a singular piece? I think the logo looks stamped, it appears to have metal displacement around the outer diamond border. Does anyone else see what I'm talking about or am I losing my marbles late in the day?

A version of "Georg Rieder".
Best regards. Denis

...and "ALCOSO"

Denny found this new distributor for me at the SOS show. It has a ACS TM with a distributor Hast & Uhthoff, Dresden. It has a few issues with condition but still a keeper.

Here is a little info on them.

I Quote from Carters book on Trade Marks.

Hast & Uhthoff, Kgl. Hofieferant, Dresden-A. Freibergerstrasse 47 in 1900, Dresden-N6 Neustadter Markt 9 in 1931-42. Founded in 1815. A manufacturer of gold and silverware and also leather goods in 1900, and a purveyor to the Royal Saxon Household and of swords to the officers of the Royal Saxon army. One of the few Hoflieferanten to survive the 1914-18 war and to continue in business into the 1940s.

This one was already on the list but I found one at the SOS for my collection.

Terry,

Nice pickups. This is only the 4th K.Negele I've seen. Never seen the Hast & Uhthoff mark on a dress bayonet but I have seen it on a couple of Heer daggers, a Landzoll dagger & from memory, a couple of Imperial/Weimar edged weapons. What else did you score?

Billy/Terry

I have the Hast & Uhtfhoff mark on an otherwise unmarked, but clearly Alcoso, Luft2.

John

Didn't find this one in your list, J.H.C. FRIE Hannover. Cheers

I don't know whats wrong with me, I am now buying duplicates of ones I already have. This one has a few extra features.

Back of frog is maker marked "Karl Muller, Altenburg/Th. Ernststr.17". With its original Luftwaffe dress bayonet knot having gray leather strap, gray cord ball with red cord cap. Inside of leather on strap is profusely LW marked with this flak artillery outfit's designation "II/Flak Rgt. 26" and '7.Battr I" [I believe that this translates to the 2nd Company/26th Anti-Aircraft Artillery Regiment/7th Battery. Also marked with Luftwaffe equipment issue depot stamping 'LBA (8) 38' [translates to "Luftwaffebeleidungsamt=Luftwaffe Clothing Depot Office

The distributor mark on the Epack.

The whole bayonet.

Great pictures, guys.

Terry: that is one lovely bayonet.

Cogratulations to all.

John

Hi Terry,

I don't see this mark on any of the lists. It looks like I. I. C. Kollmann, Quakenbruck. I assume it's a distributor mark on an otherwise unmarked short, stag grip dress bayo. The seller thought it could be luft because there was a luft base near Quakenbruck. The frog does look to have a brown tinge to it. What do you think?

Thanks, Lance

The whole bayo.

With the scabbard.

Thanks.

Lance

I don't think the name is I. I. C. Kollmann but I.C. Kollmann. The first I is a double strike, not a big deal it happen often. First time for this distributor mark for me. Nice pick-up.

Is this picture below a picture of your bayonet. The reason is I don't like the way the grips fit on this one. Could be OK, would like to see in person.

I wondered what had became of this bayonet.
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/...100044215#4100044215

A few years ago, the owner pumped GDC members for info and then sold it on another forum.

I thought it had been previously posted here on Terry's thread.

new to me too,


the stag looks ok not new has that yellow look. but I think Terry was looking at the fit and I see his point. But I think its ok.

I wish I had a new one to post.
steve

O.K. Denny, I remember the thread now. Whatever you and Terry are taking for memory I need some. I can't remember what I did yesterday.

Steve.

Wow you guys do have great memories. This is the same bayo based on the wear and hole in the frog, the same scratchs on the scabbard, the same pattern to the stag etc.

I have another short stag that I have doubts about but I agree with Steve that this one is ok. I really appreciate Von Ryan's comment in the original post. The comments in the original post also reinforce the idea that this is Luft.

Original poster's location was West Coast so this one didn't go too far over the last few years.

Thanks alot guys, I do appreciate the info and comments and can provide better pics if anyone is interested.

Lance

Hi! A variant of the Mark of GECO, regards.

Nacho,

Now THAT'S a Geco variation I haven't seen, well done!

Dang, Dang, I thought I had seen them all. Nice pick-up.

Billy, did you notice its not a Firemans bayonet.

T,

I did , if I find one like this you'll get an email!

Duplicate post

Hi! This is a variant of Otto Brömer Wolffenbüttel, please how common it is? Regards.

This distributor also spine marked it's products & we've seen a few of them here over the years, Steven C. has a stag version. IMO A spine marked example would be more desirable on a rarity scale but to answer your question, Bromer is not a common mark.

Billy

Are you speaking of Otto Bromer.

T,

Yup, Otto Brömer. I was unaware of the nonspine mark on your list & presumed this was one & the same distributor with the most recent mark being the store's name.

Terry, thought that pic looked familiar ,

Nacho, very nice pick up i like it.

steve,

Here is a new distributor (ED. SCHERM, NURNBERG) that I purchased from Denny G., also got a C. Lutters & Co. Solingen in two lines.

Terry,

Nice pickups both! Never saw a Scherm before, the Lutters with 2 lines is quite rare too.

I also found a version 2 of the H. Mutz distributor.

I have a flag with the town name wolfenbuttel on it,only the 2nd time i have ever heard the name.
sean

Sean
Check this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfenb%C3%BCttel

Terry thank you very much for that link. some really interesting info on the place.
it was a garrison town at one point and also had witch trials there too!!
regards
Sean

Another G.Grafrath. W is like in Grawiso TM. Interesting......
Is it scarce TM?

full view

WKC distributor mark.Fr. Sedlatzek, Berlin W 8
Maker.

Distributor

Nice G. Grafrath, very scarce TM, in fact I don't have one for my collection.

H.Naubert - distributor mark on dress bayonet.No TM, but hilt seems like E.Pack.

pic.2

Andrei

Is that FR. SEDLATZEK, BERLIN W.8

Terry
The distributor mark FR. SEDLATZEK, BERLIN W.8
belongs to Early WKC (king & knight heads)dress bayonet,short blade,magnetic hilt with the fake stud button. See discussion http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/...=514107532#514107532

terry, thank you very much for posting this. very nice ,exactlly what I'm looking for on this forum. now if I can figure out to post a photo or 2 ,might have a couple to add. My current project is maker marks of ALL 1934- 1945 german edged items. & which mark went to what item.
I like how the experts turn out books with out all the info. ,conflicting info. AND sell each book @ $ 90.00 +. if they would just ask a little help from people in forums like this, they would get a bigger better picture.
all the expert claim only "16" makers of the army dagger, my list is at around 26 diffrent makers.... that was sololy doing web serches.
please keep up the good work. jeff

Here's a different version of the L. Worz Ulm a.d. distributor mark:



JAN

Nice, unusual version. I hadn't seen one like that before.

Thanks to Billy G. for finding this one for me. Some of plating is gone, but nice to have a new one. I hadn't found a new Distributor marked bayonet (that I could afford) for a long time. So here it is Ruff ULM. Anyone know about this distributor?

Terry:

Neither "RUFF" nor "ULM" are in my version of Fisher.

Now, Ulm could be the city, right?

John

Good afternoon! Like such there was no brand. Yours faithfully Michael.

Mike

Nice Weyersberg. I had never seen one of these before. Ron W. said it would hard to collect all the different TM's, at the time I thought I could do it, well now I'm not so sure.

Mike, how many of these have you seen with this TM.

Showed to nobody except this forum. With the best Michael.

Terry,

According to my knowledge the company "Ruff" in Ulm has been founded in 1854 by the cutler Ph. W. Ruff. It was a cutlery and still exists today. I assume Ruff was in that times a distributor of such bayonets, which have been marked with Ruff´s name and location. According to the website the company today is not owned by the Ruff family anymore. The company still offers all sorts of knifes, scissors, straight razors, manicure sets, etc. Here´s the German website: http://www.messer-ruff.de/home.html

BTW ... "a.D." is a common German abbreviation behind names of German cities and means "an der Donau" = "at the Danube River"

Jan,

This could be the company "Ludwig Wörz" in the German city of Ulm. The abbreviation "a.D." behind the city name "Ulm" means "an der Donau" (= at the Danube river).

Wörz was a custom tailor, which made regimentals, headgear, etc. Most likely he was also offering bayonets, which Wörz stamped with his name and location.

Here´s a photo of his label in a tunic, which is for sale at Weitze (photo courtesy & copyright of Helmut Weitze).

https://www.weitze.net/detail/53/Wehrmac...pe__143153.html

ivbaust

Now that is great information. Maybe I should move this name to the TM list instead of a distributor.

Thanks

Oh yes, I didn't know about the a.D., that is interesting.

Here the such has appeared.

I have this trademark on a Luft2 dagger with no other manufacturer markings.

Here it is,

John

I've seen this mark on the occasional KS98 bayonet & even a police bayonet once. Never on a Luftwaffe piece so nice job John. If anyone has this mark on a fire bayonet, give me a holler!

Every now and then EBAY spits out a treasure. Got this one today and thought I would share with you all. Its a long blade WKC on the reverse and WHIL. WARMANN OSNABRÜCK

Osnabrück is a city in Lower Saxony, Germany, some 80 km NNE of Dortmund, 45 km NE of Münster, and some 100 km due west of Hanover

Terry,

I saw this one & hoped you might win it. Well done, it looks like a very nicely conditioned, dual marked example.

Terry:

Nice one.

Congratulations.

John

Well I guess we lost all of last weeks post, so I re-post the photos of the Felix TM's

Terry,

I think you did a great job bringing this rare maker marked piece back from the dead. Very unusual looking logo, especially that cursive "Gloria". Not something I've ever seen, I suspect it's not something that's out there very much. The fact you restored it from the brink makes it all the better.

Here is an early prewar Dress Bayonet (Philipp Hess) that came my way at the SOS last week. It is one of nine that I found. Notice the fake stud button and the thin cross guard. I don't believe that the frog is original but will look nice on another scabbard.

Hi Terry ,
What colour is that wool plug, or is it the camera making the green look off ?
Regards
Will

Will

The felt is black. Is it original?? Don't know, its possible that during that era black may have been used. I guess it needs more research.

Let's bring this thread back to the top here.

John

Hi! This is one that I don´t have seen previously; an early Alcoso distributor marked Alb. Loschër Hammi /W? maybe a city name abreviation? regards

Nacho

That is the third version of this distributor. Shown are the other two. Nice bayonet.

The city of Hamm is located in Westphalia. My WAG would be that Hamm i. W. is an abbreviation of "Hamm in Westfallen" which may differentiate it with another town of the same name.
This was a common practice in Germany. An example of this would be "Frankfurt am Main" and "Frankfurt am Oder".

Hi! Always discovering new marks! Thanks TK for the other two marks, I'm always surprised by the number of the variations of the maker & distributors marks, Denny, thanks for the city name explanation, I supposed it has relation with a city name, best regards.

Here are couple new Distributor marks and one new TM.

W. Mössner, Münster

Uniform Spangenmacher, Oldenburg, iO

Rich. Plümacher, Solingen

Here is a TM that I have overlooked, ME bad. Photo shows name only TM, but one has been seen with the double beer bottles above name. This collector needs one, email me if you know of one for sale

Great work Terry, I always love coming back to this thread & all the awesome info that's contained in it. Kudos for adding the new (to me anyway) Plumacher logo. I always have loved Plumacher's simple but memorable mark.

I don't know if the above TM was known to all.

Its listed in John Walters book of German Bladesmiths as WMW WAFFEN--Max Weyersberg.

Fishers book shows a TM WMW with a sword thru the M and Waffen below.

So Max Weyersberg has a least three TM's

This TM is listed as HK--Heinrich Klein in John Walters book, and in Fishers book as brand name for Heinrich Klein on razor blades. Maybe he made a few Dress Bayonet to.

Terry:

I have seen the HK TM on fire bayonets and I have the Max Weyersberg TM on a Luft2. Actually, I have 3 Max Weyerrsberg TMs on Luft2s. Here they are. I don't know how many of these are on bayonets, though.

John

Terry,

Does Walters give any reason why he feels the HK mark is Heinrich Klein? Not saying he's wrong but the reason I ask is the dotted circle with initial inside is a dead ringer for Heinrich Krieghof's mark on Luger pistols. I've seen 3 types of HK mark, all within the dotted circle, straight letters, letters with serifs & cursive letters.

The HK mark inside of the dotted circle is shown in Fisher as a mark on Heinrich Krieghoff fire dress bayonets.

John

Billy

Nothing more than what I stated above. I have never seen the HK logo without the sword/anchor on Krieghoff Lugers. I'm not an expert on Lugers

John

I don't have the latest Fishers book,(mine is the 6th edition) but I do know that he was wrong on some of the earlier books he put out and changed then in later versions. I'm not saying I'm right but there is a question in my mind about the HK TM or is it a Brand Name for Heinrich Klein. I love a mystery.

Fisher's Seventh Edition also shows it as Heinrich Krieghoff.

I know the H.K. mark, with no circle as far as I know, as the mark of Heinrich Klein from the Schwäbisch Gmünd ring factory. That could be the reason for the confusion? Is the H.K. mark within a circle in Anthony Carters book? Thanks.

I have finally got both versions of the W.F.P. marked bayonets. I usually find these in poor condition but these two a little above average.
These two have the elongated diamond grips and no slot style stud buttons, 8 1/4" blades. Blades, hilt, every thing magnetic. I'm guessing these are prewar. Does anyone know anything about these.

Terry,

You know, I have always been convinced that the HK mark was that of Krieghof but you make an excellent point with respect to the Krieghof Lugers & the anchor. I wonder what the source of Walter's conclusion that HK was really Heinrich Klein.

Regarding your two beautiful WFP bayonets, they're very desirable. In fact, I don't think I've seen a short model before these two. The logo with initials is definitely more scarce. My oly example is a long model but with stag grips.

The Heinrich Klein from Solingen in my references also has the HK mark, but with no periods and no dotted circle. Can the author be contacted?

Terry,

Here's a shot of my long model stag "WFP", sans initials. Blade is 26cm (10 1/4") & the scabbard is slightly longer than the usual long model scabbard as well. I always found it odd that the stag was so light but on the 3 examples I've seen with this logo & stag grip plates, all were similarly toned.

To all

Has anyone see this WK&C TM

Here are some better photos, I now have this bayonet in hand. The blade is 10 1/4" long(prewar?), fully magnetic. Notice how the grip rivets don't align. I can't think WKC would have stamped the blade but it is stamped like the early TM's with the (&) symbol.
The scabbard had wood runners that just fell out. I will make new ones.

Found a nice G. GRAFRATH, short blade for my collection. Its been a good week, three new dress bayonets for my collection.

Nice pick ups all. The Gebruder Grawiso is one I haven't managed to find in a fireman's bayonet yet but I suspect they're out there.

Terry, sorry on get back so late on your W.F.P post . That is a very nice pair to have, I'll have to add the lettered style one later down the road.

Billy the one in stag I think is going on my list too, that's a keeper.

This one is the short style and it seems the green felt buffer is commen with this maker. And this one was found with a very odd frog, it's the only one I've seen like it. If some one has one like it please post a pic.

Steve,

Steve,

Speaking of keepers, not only is your WFP sweet but that interesting frog makes it a great looking rig! If I see another stag WFP, you're getting an email

Thanks Billy, you and a lot of others here always help out us other Collecters here find what we look for. I do enjoy the few I have from your stable. Down the road I'll thin some of mine out for nicer ones. Or I can knock a wall out, I need a bigger room:)

Steve,

Steven:

Billy and Terry are both stand up guys who have been a credit to the collecting community at large and a huge help and resource to many of us, me included.

If you are thinning out your collection and have any Eickhorns that are surplus, please let me know.

John

Steve

I was at an antique show in Ohio on Sat. and picked this piece up. Not rare but the condition was out of sight and its an upgrade to the one I have.

My one WFP has a green felt buffer also. I am surprise that it may have been the norm.

John

Thanks for the kind words. I think most of the dress bayonet collectors help each other out, but at the same time there is a little competition on finding something new.

Terry, I don't think you can up grade that one. Wow!!
It's get harder now days to find them that nice, well done.

When I see them that nice they are $$$ and I ******** as I did in 1975 when German helmets $25 take your pick, not SS or paratrooper. they still are what they are, But then again as a kid then a loaf of bread was .25c

Back to the top

I just came across a third version (second form the top) of the distributor Eckhard. Is there a fourth version?

I just received this Eickhorn dress bayonet with a spine etch mark to Otto Bromer of Wolfenbuttel. I have never seen this distributor before and this is the first spine etch mark that I have seen on a dress bayonet (of course, lots of hunting and forestry examples).

And, did I mention that it has a great set of stag grips?

John

John,
See post #63296 - pg. 4 of this thread. Nice catch!!!

John,
That one seems to be a very hard one to find, yours is only the 2nd one I've seen. I have one the exact same as yours that's a long Eick with stag grips. The pic on page 4 that Denny pointed out is the one I have.
I think one of us collectors here need to find the short model in stag.

Just want to add you have picked up some awesome bayonets lately, well done John you have a top notch collection.

Steve,

+1 to that!

Nothing rare at the SOS this year, but did pick this up from my good friend Chester L. I've seen lots of bayonets with the Garantie, Solingen stamped on them but this one is also stamped Hans Kramer, Nurnberg. Not rare but a bit unusual. If you have never been to the SOS, try to attend next year. I want to thank Denny G. for letting me hang out at his table.

Terry,
Always a pleasure. I'm glad you and I decided to head out on Saturday evening and miss the snow & ice.

I just picked up a Dress bayonet that is distributor marked G. O. Schultz, Glogau. Glogau was in Poland and was put in the German sector when Russia and Germany split up Poland. Glogau was returned to Poland at the end of the war. I think this is the first one that I have seen that came from outside Germans original borders.

The town was made into a stronghold by the Nazi government in 1945 during World War II. Glogau was besieged for six weeks by the Soviet Red Army and was 98% destroyed. After the Yalta Conference, the city, like the majority of Lower Silesia, was given to Poland and German-speaking inhabitants were expelled. In May 1945 the first Polish settlers came to the renamed city of Glogów to find only ruins


All the plating is gone on the pommel except for around the grip plates

Terry,

First I've heard or seen of one of these, very, very nice ... thanks for posting!

Best!

Bill

Wow, Terry!

I gotta believe that that is truly a one-of-a-kind.

John

This is the frog and scabbard that came with the above bayonet. What impression do you get when looking at the frog. Its very tight on the scabbard. It also seems wider than a lot of frogs for dress bayonets

Terry,

That is a rather crude frog. I suppose it could have been locally made since the bayonet is from occupied territory.

Hommel w/Klass TM
I know that this not the first time we have seen one, but I now have one for myself. John Z has one and another member has one. I seen one of these 25 years ago but didn't buy because of my inexperience with the TM.

Very nice pick up Terry. Quite scarce, I dig the Hummel name being in an arch over the storks, cool stiff.

Terry is correct. My Hommel is on a double etched bayonet, neutral on one side and a dedication to Inf Regt 106 on the other.

A beautiful etch with an obscure distributor marking, something for everyone

Terry that frog dose look a little off but looks pre-1945

This one to me looks post war it's wider than normal over size rivets. This one came on a fire bayo, I've never gave it much added value to the piece just left it as is.

Steve,

You can see the machine marks up the back side and the stitching dose not match any I've seen.

And last one. It dose look the like the bayonet has been in for some time but still doesn't make it pre 1945

Sorry for the bad iPhone pics

Steve,

Steven,

Your frog is made in the Czech manner. It looks like it has been on the scabbard for a long time and the Germans did use a lot of Czech equipment.

Great bunch of trade marks thanks for the excellent work have identified some of mine. timothy

On Gunboard had one collector attached a strange distributor mark, on KS98 made by ACS. b.r.Andy

andy

Was this the only photo. I was wondering if it was a pre-warII bayonet

Andy,
That is the first time Ive seen that TM and a real treat to see thanks.

Terry, when I first looked at it I didn't think about it may be WW1 time frame, it would be great to see more photos of it.

Has anyone heard or seen the TM of Widmann & Sohn, Munchen, Sorry about bad photo.

Gunboard link
The bayonet is non magnetic, short blade KS98, made by Alcoso ACS Solingen. So i assume 3R piece.

That ACS bayonet with unusual mark is something I would love to own. The mark is quite unusual & I've never seen anything like it. It almost looks to be a regimental mark with all the stuff going on.

I would agree with Andy that if it has that Alcoso mark that it's probably 3R era example.

Terry
I have a couple of hunting knives with the Widman & Sohn Munchen maker mark from the mid 1920's.

Gary

Baz

That fits with the style of the bayonet. Notice how thin the cross guard is compared to ACS pictured. I own 2-3 pre-WW2 dress bayonets and they have the same characteristics as this one.

Happy Thanks Giving to all

I have some good news and bad news.

The TM mark below is Robert Klass Messerfabrik, Solingen-Ohligs
The bad news is that it is post war per W. Weavers book Titled An Encyclopedia of German Trade names and Trade marks 1900-1945. I guess Fisher was wrong on this one.

Another one

Hommel

Hommelwerk GmbH, Mannheim-Kafertal; A tool maker noted for the production of various small arms tools and gauges during the National Socialist era.

Also Billy G. was correct on the HK TM. Heinrich Krieghoff Waffenfabrik, Suhl [variant]

Terry,

Wow, Hommel was a manufacturer? I figured for sure they were a distributor.

I see, in Fisher, that Hommel in Mainz (a branch office) and in Mannheim-Kaferthal (the head office) was a manufacturere of NS bayonets.

With the logo of the twin cranes, I thought the same as Billy... that Hommel was a distributor of Klaas blades.

Thanks for showing us the error of our thinking, Terry.

John

Interesting that in the companies bio it doesn't show the war years. Its still interesting that Hommel and Klass combined TM symbol and name on the same side.




The J. Hommel, Aschaffenburg is probably a different TM/Distributor.





1876
Hermann Hommel, Geh. Kommerzienrat (counciler of commerce) founds the "Technisches Werkzeuggeschaeft H. Hommel" in Mainz, a commercial company for tools and machine tools.

1893
Hermann Hommel establishes a factory for precision measuring tools in Idar-Oberstein. His aim is to produce adequate, high-precision measuring tools for the metal-working industry which was increasing at that time.

1910
Company moves to Mannheim Kaefertal.

1924
Affiliation to the Otto-Wolff-Group.

1973
The group acquires the company Gerhardt Messmaschinenbau in VS-Schwenningen, integrating it as a branch. In the course of structural modifications of the group, Hommelwerke is transferred to VS-Schwenningen.

1990
Take-over by Thyssen AG.

1997
De-merger from Thyssen as part of a management buy-out.

2000
Take-over by JENOPTIK Laser, Optik, Systeme GmbH.

2001
Integration of JENOPTIK's optical shaft measurement technology sector (formerly Steinheil) into Hommelwerke.


2002
* Strategic alliance with Detroit Precision Hommel Inc. to serve the US-market.
* Acquisition of Optische Sensorsysteme GmbH and extension of product range with Optical Inspection.
* Acquisition of Somicronic SA and foundation of HOMMEL SOMICRONIC SARL to strengthen the position in the French market.
* Hommelwerke is accredited DKD calibration laboratory according to DIN EN ISO/IEC 17025 for calibration of roughness, profile depth, roughness measuring systems (since 1980) as well as - new - roundness, straightness, parallelism and magnification standards.

2003
Acquisition of IBP Messtechnik GmbH and completion of the form measuring products range.

2004
Cooperation on Telstar Hommel Corp. - fortification on the south-korean market

2005
Hommelwerke acquires new stake in the Czech and Slovak market for industrial production measurement technology.

2006
*Joint Venture in Shanghai: Hommel-Telstar Shanghai Measuring and Automation Co., Ltd.

* Hommelwerke GmbH acquires French measure-ment technology company ETAMIC SA.


2007
Merger of the Hommelwerke GmbH and the Etamic SA into the HOMMEL ETAMIC GmbH.

Not the first company to conveniently forget the past. I get the fact that they produced items which could have been used in the war effort & that perhaps they're a little squeamish about that but the evidence is plainly there. I think they don't need to "admit" anything but the conspicuous failure to mention anything seems worse than they actual truth.

Bertram Reinh. also likes to dispute that they manufactured SS daggers during the NS zeit, good luck convincing anyone of that.

Hi! please have a look on this sword section thread

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=303524&gonew=1#UNREAD

Best regards & merry Christmas for all!

Nacho

My good friend Chester L. found this one for me. I had been looking for several years. Easy to find the ACS TM, but AWS had eluded me. The blade is not plated but is magnetic along with the Rivets, hilt is non-magnetic. The blade had been lightly sharpen but polished up well. Don't normally tell what I pay for bayonets, but for $41 a great deal. thanks Chester.

Hello experts, here is one marking from german forum, could You help on this.Thanks.Andy

Terry,

I know you've been looking for an AWS for years, I've always kept my eyes open for you as well. It really is nice to see. A shame about the sharpening, I have a few scarce/rare marks that are also similarly disfigured but bought them anyway. Well done Chester & Terry!


Andy,

The exclamation point within the triangle is the mark of Richard Plümacher, not often seen on a KS98. I have this mark on a late production short model KS98 (one of the few non-fire pieces I own), it has nearly no plating on the hilt but the blade is immaculate.

Here is the other version of this TM

I believe the one Terry shows is even rarer than the logo with just the triangle & exclamation point. I bought the one I have because I liked the logo, it's on the only Heer dagger I own.

Here's mine

Thanks very much for help.

Other interesting stamp on blade of a damaged KS98, found in Russia.

The AWS marking on service 84/98 bayonets is probably more common and seems to fall into two groups. Late German Police marked (still a high polish finish, which for Coppel Wehrmacht bayonets extended into as late as very early in 1942). And the later so-called mid-war 'commercial' bayonets from that maker with a much less refined finish. Nice catch!! Best Regards, Fred

I know a lot of collectors will not use eban but every now and then a jewel appears. This one is a short blade, double marked with a yellow felt. Common Holler mark but has the MILITARWARENHAUS distributor. This is one of the best condition bayonets I have ever owned. The scabbard is also A1. Frog is a bit brittle but looks great.

Great catch, Terry.

John

Is this the thread your looking for?
http://www.germandaggers.com/Gallery/Makers.php

Here is a photo of a Fahnen Reuter Munster TM that I just picked up.

Terry:

I have this mark on a Luft2 with the early no oval Horster mark on the other side.

John

That's a beautiful early Hörster John, made only nicer by the grip & distributor mark. Love pieces like this, they have so many little points of interest.

Here are a couple photos of distributor marks I didn't have before.

Is this a EPack TM with a Otto Haupt distributor?

Here are the two versions of the Eckhorn 42 over shoulder TM, one with Original and one without and different arm configurations.

John

Very nice John, I didn't know there were variations on the this late TM, I'm going to pay more attention to this late TM.

I have seen the Original version on daggers, Heers, Kriegsmarines, Luftwaffes, NPEAs, but this is the first time I have seen it on a Dress bayonet.

On german forum was found a short blade KS98 zinc hilt, only with Hertra-Qualitaet on blade, any info would be appreciated. b.r.Andy

Added 30 marks typically found on bayonets to the Maker Mark Gallery. It now contains 410 marks. I have a first test of the Distributor Mark Gallery ready with 140 marks. You can view it HERE. It does not include blade spine marks but I'll get to them after this section is ready to go live. Still going over the pros and cons of separate versus combined Maker/Distributor mark galleries and would like to hear your opinions. Maybe a better option is to have them in the same gallery but in different sections.

Vern,

There should be a distinction so listing them in the same gallery but different section sounds like a good idea.

Hopefully will have ait up tomorrow

I always thought that the above TM was post war, but Carters new TM book states this TM was in Ads in the late 1930's see page 269.

Terry,

Was this mark used on exported blades? The "Germany" part makes me think so.

Fisher states that this mark was found on a post war hunting knife (2005 7th edition, page 1141)

John

I have consulted my scrolls (period paperwork and catalogs) the trademark was used during the 30s as I have paperwork with this Export mark.. Fisher is a great reference but most of the research is 2nd and 3rd hand. Accumulated from others work..
I bought 100s of old knife blanks when herder went into bankruptcy years ago.. In there old stock was stuff from the 20s to the 80s.
They did not throw nothing away...
Here is a picture of a cold-cut knife blank showing trademark for export..

OK I will drive it home .
So it was used domestically also!!
Period documents are the best and while there may be a few errors in Anthony Carter's new book Much of the research he did himself with Henning Ritter of Solingen.. John Walter more or less assembled it.
Notice trademark on the pocket knife blade...
This is why (good) reference is worth buying!!!
Right Terry!!! So now we know it is a period bayonet... Of course it helps that I post the picture of the period advertisement showing the trademark.
Regards: James

Rarely do we see definitive proof as shown by Jim. As they say: That settles that.

Thanks James for the help now that you have seen the TM take a look at the complete bayonet.

Top one is a Horster and bottom is the Herder. The Herders blade and rivets are magnetic, pommel not. The Herder blade is a little wider at the crossguard but tapers more to the tip.
Horster blade is 7 5/8 in. verses Herder 8 5/16.

Always learning Terry, that is my favorate part of this hobby...
Regards: James

What I learned out of this exchange is that one reference book is not enough... multiple views of the same topic will eventually give you the right answer, one alone may or may not.

And, the best resource is original and period documentation.

Congrats, Terry, on a rare bayonet TM.

John

Makes total sense John I also have the Fisher reference in the pile..
There are still many discoveries that will come to light..
What a great thread.
Regards: James

I hope Vern adds this one to the TM list.

I once had a Fireman bayonet with the Herm. Konejung TM that also had Germany in the TM. Carters book doesn't show it but maybe it wasn't post war like I thought.

I just saw a Herm Konenjung bayonet over the weekend. It was a short sawback with stag grips. There was red felt in the pommel and it came with a frog and company knot. Same markings as shown in the previous post.

Len

Terry,

I've seen a couple of Konejung sawback blades with "Germany" too. They looked period produced, I always figured they were somehow for export.

I know when we see (GERMANY) we right away think postwar or export.. put this is not always the case as proven on the Herder mark above...
Germany as used as part of a trademark was also used domestically during the 30s and early 40s..
I have looked at what I have on Konejung and could not find a document with Germany as part of a trademark but that does not mean much as most of what I have is before 1934. Konejung just sent updated pricing on there master earlier catalog..
It would not surprise me at all that this Konejung mark is period and was also used domestically as was the above Herder mark..
You must remember Konejung was a huge tableware and cutlery maker as was the Herder company..

Thanks James for the input on these TM's

I have a new one (for me)H & F Lauterjung, Solingen. See photo below. I don't know why I had never came across it before. This is a project bayonet, meaning it needs some work. Will show you photos when finished.

Here is one I have never seen before

Cool mark, I suspect it's a distributor. Never seen it before either.

Stingray

I just sold one of those on a long bladed Fireman.

Here is the Lauterjung before and after photos. Better than before

A fire bayonet? Damn it, another one to add to the list!

This is a first for me on a dress bayonet(Karl J. Krebs)

I've never seen the stylized "K" with crown missing the oval. I have a large & small Krebs mark on fire bayonets.

Distributor on a russian forum KS98 piece, no maker markings, handle with screws, distributor "Militaer Effekte Rimpler" b.r.Andy

Andy

Were the screws like the EPack?????

Yes similar, but i am not expert on this, the blade was on otherside unmarked.not extra condition blade,rough refinished shape.b.r.Andy

Here are a couple new ones for me.

M. Kattler distributor on a long bladed Eickhorn

Prunus, Solingen on a short bladed dress bayonet

Hello here a A.Meissner Breslau distributor on a KS98 reported from Ukraine.b.r.Andy

I just found a short model dress bayonet with the Hertra- Qualitat mark on it the H is very faint sorry no pic just can't get them small enough to post.

This trademark has me stumped. It looks to be a seal or sea lion, but I can't find that in any of my hardcopy or any online references. It's on a KS98 Dress Bayonet. Any help would be most appreciated.

There is unmarked piece with distributor Joh.Hall/ Donaueschingen on KS98 short carbine blade. b.r.Andy