I thought I would take this opportunity to restart the original thread that explored fire bayonets. That thread, as many of you will remember, lasted at least a few years & had a tremendous amount of information. It also had tons of pictures from many GD members collections & I hope collectively we can recreate some of that thread here now. Please feel free to add pics of your pieces or any info that may help add to the appreciation of these fine edged weapons.

Feuerwehr bayonets are somewhat more popular now than when I started that thread 6 or 7 years ago. Initially I had no interest in dress bayonets, a sentiment I'm sure many dagger & blade collectors feel. First off there's plenty of them out there & it's probably human nature to practically disregard something that's so plentiful. I know, I do it myself.

As far as detail there's not much there, right? These pieces are as plain as plain can be & yet there is beauty in their simplicity. The lines are clean & true, almost utilitarian in their appearance.

Most collectors would look at a pile of fire bayonets thinking they're all the same but there are differences there, subtle differences that obsessive collectors can not only see but ponder over for hours. But I'll get to the subtle differences & variations at a later date. For now maybe it's best to start where I started, at the beginning. Here is that first piece.

Back maybe 10 years ago I only had eyes for daggers. Every once in a while the colorful Feuerwehr bayonet knot would catch my eye as it really stood out but the bayonets did nothing for me. Guess one day I thought "maybe I'll get just one nicely conditioned piece to fill the niche.".

Yeah right, was that ever short sighted. So it was that I found this piece on Eban, seemingly perfect long model bayonet with nicely conditioned frog & well toned knot. The seller wanted something like $200 on a buy it now which was a lot in those days since I probably could have had a nice Heer dagger for $300. So I pull the trigger & the piece arrives a few days later.

My beginning in fire bayonets started where many German edged weapons collectors start, with the ubiquitous mark of Carl Eickhorn. I was soon to learn the significance & timing of maker marks but this is how I saw my first Feuerwehr piece. I was amazed at the plated blade & how utterly perfect it was, save for a few runner marks. The grip plates were similarly perfect & fitted just flush to the hilt. The curious crossguard caught my attention but then, that one of the main features that distinguished it from the standard Heer/Luftwaffe KS98. I read somewhere that the recurved crossguard was fashioned after the hooks that adorned the duty belts of the firemen of yore.

I picked up the piece many times that week & loved that even though it was 50+ years old at the time, it still looked like it could have been made last week.

I was satisfied with my seemingly perfect Eick fire bayonet. That lasted weeks, maybe a month. Then I realized there were long & short models & these curious, vicious looking sawbacks. The prices on the sawbacks, then as now, were significantly higher than the plain blades examples. And so it was that I decided to obtain an example of long & short models in both plain & sawback blade.

Jeff Slaker, also known as Colorado, an old GD'er had some fire bayonets he was unloading, most had frogs, some even had knots & all were priced most fairly. It was from Jeff that I picked up my first sawback, a '35-'41 Eickhorn long model. Jeff actually provided me with a number of nice examples over the years & I owe him & many others a debt of thanks.

This piece typified the differenced between the early era Eickhorns & later production pieces. The weight was lighter overall & the plating on the pommels & crossguards was thinner, as you can see from the slight bubbling in this pic. It was obvious to tell, especially in hand, that the parts used to make these later pieces wasn't as good as some of the others but the quality in construction was still there. While of a later vintage, all parts are so well fitted that it's tough to find fault with it. Additionally, it's sawteeth are frighteningly sharp. The maker's mark was the same as the other plain bladed example I had but it's such a decent mark in & of itself & I hadn't yet had the bright idea to buy at least 1 example of every mark on these bayonets. But that would change.

This piece came off Eban back in the glory days. I remember I beat Ron Weinand out for it which meant to me the piece was probably worth having. Ron always said sawbacks are scarce but short sawbacks are scarcer still.

It was after I got this short sawback that I realized the very real differences between early & later production. Everything about an earlier vintage piece is better IMO & you can really see it in this bayonet from the quality. You can also date it's production to '33-'34 which is when Eickhorn is said to have used this logo.

Besides the relative scarcity of these short sawbacks, what drew me to this particular piece was the unusual hanging device that was on this bayonet. The best I can describe it would be a semi crudely fashioned frog with suspension loop affixed to a clip that was hung from a belt. There also was a strap with snap button to hold the grip of the bayonet in place while in wear.

I loved the piece even more when I found a slight wear mark on the reverse of the pommel where the bayonet obviously rersted against the metal clip while being worn. It gave it just a little more character & also meant the hanging device was original to the bayonet. Volume V of Tom Johnson's original dagger books shows an identical hanging device on a short '33-'34 Eickhorn sawback.

The bakelite grip plates on this piece are the usually seen diamond pattern instead of the earlier, elongated diamond type which we usually see on very early pieces. I'll deal with the earlier bakelite in a later post.

Billy:

Great start to this thread...

John

WOW just superb

Billy

Thanks for restarting your Fire dress bayonet thread. I would advise everyone to save this thread; one never knows how long it will be with us. In my opinion Dress bayonets are very collectable because they are under priced compared to other edged weapons, plus the unbelievable amount of TM's and distributors that are available.

Billy is an expert on Fireman’s bayonets and we are sure to learn from this thread.

Hi guys,

glad you made this thread. Fire bayonets and dress bayonets in general are a great niche that will never stop surprising a collector. They are still affordable and make it a perfect collectible for beginners and or people on a budget like me.

Here's one of my rarer fire bayonets bought from T. Wittmann about a year ago. Notice the unusual tip to go with the narrow fuller:





JAN

Here's one more picture of my Spitzer short fire bayonet:





JAN

Thanks for the kind words guys. This hobby is completely a learning experience & it really never stops, I have to say I learned as much as anyone from the old firerman bayonet thread. So many new makers & variations popped up that my head was spinning every time I checked new posts.

Since the last thread disappeared I've picked up a bunch of new & quite interesting pieces that I hope to share with you. I think the last thread brought some heightened interest into this niche & I hope this thread will do the same.

Jan,

A very nice piece with the green felt buffer & unusual blood groove, it looks like it isn't a narrow or wide one. Sort of in between, this is a short model right? From memory, the piece has no maker mark but the owner's initials, right?

Here is a better shot of the rig that was attached to the short '33-'34 Eickhorn sawback.

Here's another short Eickhorn sawback that I picked up a few months ago. Very early piece showing the best quality parts & construction despite the slight plate lifting on the ricasso. Wait a minute, that isn't the '33-'34 double oval Eickhorn mark

Here's a better shot of the maker mark, a single oval squirrel. First time for me & I'm sure for many of you. When I reserved this piece, I fully expected it to arrive showing obvious signs of grip tampering or other indicia of it being rehilted over the years but alas that was not to be.

When it arrived, it was tight as a drum with very nicely fitted parts. The rivets & bakelite were very early & consistent with the supposed age of the piece, all other parts were looked like Eick production. Even the underside of the frog lug which had the Eickhorn part number 555CE. It was very heavy & was obvious, to me anyway, that the piece was original. A wonderful surprise & something I never thought I'd see.

As you can see, the lifting isn't that deep, certainly not enough to make me pass this one up.

Here's a shot showing a comparison of the single oval squirrel to the '33-'34 double oval squirrel. The blades are virtually idential with the exception of the maker's mark. Interestingly, although the hilt of the single oval is Eickhorn shape, it is hefty. The double oval is finer in appearance although it shows the same profile.

As you can see in the picture, the single oval has the early bakelite pattern where the double oval has the more commonly seen pattern. When holding these early Eickhorn pieces one really sees the quality Eick used in their products. I know Pack has it's fans among bayonet collectors & I am certainly one of them but IMO Eick's early quality surpasses them all.

A better shot of the obverse view. You can somewhat make out the relative difference in width of the pommels. The crossguards are classic Eickhorn too.

While we're on the topic of early sawbacks, this might be a good opportunity to show another piece of similar vintage to the above Eickhorns. Very tight overall & just a pleasure to hold this one. This piece, like the others, shows excellent quality in everything. Same Eickhorn produced hilt, same early bakelite.

So we're talking about another Eickhorn here, right? Not exactly. Eickhorn produced perhaps but this piece has another iconic mark, that of the twins of JA Henckels.

It's no secret that some of the larger edged weapons manufacturers supplied smaller makers with bayonet parts over the course of the 3R. We've seen many smaller cottage makers' marks on Eickhorn's products over the years. Not that I would consider Henckels a smaller manufacturer but it's possible to infer that at the time this piece was produced that Henckels didn't have a booming bayonet business & subcontracted with Eickhorn for parts.

I have another early Henckels fire bayonet however this one was produced later than the sawback. The hilt is not Eickhorn produced IMO which only leads me to believe either Henckels subcontracted early in the NS zeit, continued to subcontract with other companies than Eick or started producing their own parts as the war progressed. Anything's possible since Henckels mark on a bayonet is still a pretty scarce item.

Billy:

That single oval Eick is amazing. I have only seen the single oval on very early HJs.

And to get it in that condition is also unbelievable.

Maybe you should buy lottery tickets with your luck

John

quote:

Originally posted by Billy G.:
Jan,

A very nice piece with the green felt buffer & unusual blood groove, it looks like it isn't a narrow or wide one. Sort of in between, this is a short model right? From memory, the piece has no maker mark but the owner's initials, right?

Hi Billy, yes indeed. It has the initials LH on the blade, but as we agreed, it's not a TM or a distributor mark.

Beautiful bayonets you posted guys, I cannot stop but stare at these repeatedly. I have yet to acquire a sawback, but hey, sooner or later, I will have one too

JAN

John,

The Eick is a special piece & I'm happy it's here surrounded by bunches of relatives Had I not snagged it before you, I have no doubt it would have been going to Canada. It definitely fits a niche in my collection as well as a link in the evolutionary chain in the 3R fireman's bayonet sawbacks. The good news is none of these pieces are unique, when we see another I'll be sure steer you to it. BTW, your luck with 2nd Lufts is the stuff of legend.

Jan,

Many thanks for the kind words. The sawbacks are out there too. You'll be able to find a nice one at your price if you just keep looking. Probably when you least expect it. That's exactly when I found the Henckels, just when I wasn't looking for it. Drop me an email with your preferences, maybe something will come around.

It seems only natural to move from Eickhorn, the maker with the lions share of fireman bayonet production, to another prolific Solingen manufacturer. WKC certainly made a tremendous amount of daggers, both Imperial & 3R but you don't see lots of WKC fire bayonets around. I only have 2 WKC examples, this one came to me last year from Tom Wittmann who had it on his site for a year or more. I used to look at it every few days & yet it stayed there. Maybe I thought I could find this variation on my own, maybe I didn't want to pay Tom's price. Either way all looking at it did was vex me more so I gave into the temptation & bought it.

Tom said he thought this mark was indicative of late war production but after seeing it in person I'd have to respectfully disagree. Just from it's appearance & parts, it really looks to be early production. Whenever the piece was actually produced, it's a short model with a WKC variation maker mark including the location "Solingen". Try as I might, I could never find one of these on a fire bayonet, or any bayonet for that matter. It has some other nice features too. For starters, a really wide crossguard, similar to the Eickhorn products. You never know, maybe Eick made it. Very unusual bakelite too, not the early type either. It's more like the type on the early Pack HJs. The blood groove is also not the wide or narrow type but a sort of in between width.

This one is also a short model with the usually seen 3R era WKC mark with the embellished knight's helmet. Prewar construction but not nearly as early as the previous piece. I initially got it just to have a WKC but noticed something when it arrived home.

Upon taking it from the scabbard & bubblewrap I noticed the blade had a natural finish, sort of like a crossgraining but more pronounced. From what I've seen pieces with this type of blades aren't that common so I guess it's a keeper.

While we're on storied old Solingen manufacturers, I find myself looking at a very special piece. Not so much special because of ultra rarity although the mark is probably pretty scarce. But special because it was this piece that started what I like to call "the sickness".

At the time I saw this piece back in the glory days of Eban, I wasn't the degenerate maker mark fiend I am now. I had maybe 4 or 5 fire bayonets, the nicest of these being the '33-'34 sawback Eick posted above. Anyway I saw this nice short model with the lovely snake & stump & decided to put in a half hearted bid which, as luck would have it, won it for me. The piece had a nice sturdy frog & I realized it was a much sought after mark, maybe the only opportunity for me to ever possess this mark. At some point shortly thereafter I got the bright idea to snag a few other obscure marks on these fire bayonets. Maybe 20 or 25 pieces later, I thought maybe I had a problem. About 100 pieces later I knew I had a problem.

This Voos mark seems to be the one most frequently seen on bayonets marked by Voos.

This Voos mark of stimp & snake with no name is pretty scarcely seen on anything IMO. I've only seen it on 1 or 2 Heer daggers & maybe 2 or 3 bayonets total. I got this piece from a fellow collector & fellow competitor for maker marks until he sold off his collection.

Collectors are funny & I think I'm no different. Initially I set out to find 1 mark from each maker. Then I added distributors. Then I got the bright idea to try & get every variation of each maker's logo. Silly right? This piece was one of them that got me over that final last straw of sanity to total bayonet obsession. In my defense, it's a cool mark

This one is the 3rd variation of Emil Voos' logos that I've seen on fireman's bayonets. The mark itself is not that sexy but it finished out the set. In fact, the seller who was not a dagger & bayonet guy, didn't know what it said but I sure did.

I should confess, the real reason I was pushed into buying the 3rd Voos variation was as much the variation as it was what was hiding on the reverse ricasso. It turned out to have the scarce (rare maybe?) mark of the Berlin distributor Gustav Genschow.

Speaking of distributors, we've all seen fire bayonets dual marked with Tiger & the Munchen distributor Georg Reider. This is probably the most common maker/distributor combo & they're out there. Some dealers have listed them for ridiculous sums but the fact is they're on Eban all the time, often at a fraction of what some of the better known names in the hobby want for them.

I haven't observed many Voos fire bayonets over the years but this was the only time I have seen a Voos dual marked with a distributor.

Billy, I love the thread so far.and I have a thing for the Voos tm'S I have a heer bayo Voos with no name, very hard to find. let alone on a FW. NICE!

Steve

here the mekersmark with the little firepolice helmet

Nowhere near as nice as the ones shown previously, but here is my long sawback with the 35-41 TM

Obverse

Obverse really

Reverse

The TM

The Blade Obverse

The Blade reverse

The Hilt

The Hilt Reverse

John

And, here is my short sawback with the 35-41 TM

Obverse

Reverse of the short

The short TM

The blade obverse short

Blade reverse short

Hilt obverse short

Hilt reverse short bayo

John

Here is my short F.Plucker Jr. Magnetic grip.

Maker

maker2

Blade

Here's my only fire bayonet, a fairly early Pack.

Gary

2

3

Baz:

Van you post more pictures of the etch? I have just gone through a couple of fire etches that turned out to be not quite right. The only Pack fire etch I have seen so far was a slightly worn copy that was shown to me at last year's SOS.

John

Billy - I appreciate the kind words about the sawback and others I sold you back in the day. Those were cheap, but I too did not pay much and pulled them out of the woodwork for the most part. It is great to see my babies live on in your collection. That was about 7-8 years ago, you bought them if I remember right.

The collection is spectacular. Thanks for sharing, Jeff

John

Not sure there is much more I can show you, this is the complete etch, there is another one exactly the same in this thread.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/...600031894#1600031894

It's a lovely bayonet and 100% correct in my opinion.

Gary

Billy,
I haven't been on the GDC site for a few weeks and look what I have been missing! Thanks for restarting this thread....

Gary:

I was not questioning its authenticity at all. I am interested in seeing the bookends of this etch.

This is one that is missing from my collection of etches and I want to study as many real ones as I can so that I do not get burned again.

John

John

Here's the ends of the etch.

Gary

Gary:

Thank you. I am of the understanding that Pack Fire etches are truly rare. This is a beauty.

John

John,

Thanks for showing those beautiful squirrel sawbacks, I think you've got more than me! While I think all sawbacks are tough to find in nice condition, that short '35-'41 sawback is a tough configuration to find. Yours is a beaut.

Gary,

What a pretty etch! I had nearly forgotten about that Pack you picked up. Were I to only have 1, yours would do nicely indeed. I think the condition is exceeded only by it's rarity & that makes it a special piece by any means. If you're looking to move it someday, I'd probably hock my silvered baby shoes for it! Just dandy!

Jan,

You've found one of my weak spots, the products of L&E. I was getting around to listing a few of them but you beat me to the punch. I think if you want just 1 fire piece & are a logo freak like me, the L&E logo is something you can't go wrong with. To my knowledge it's the only logo that incorporated a swaz which makes it something unusual.

The fire helm is a nice touch as well. This mark was also unusual in that distributors almost exclusively used stamps with the names sometimes including the location of the shop. That's it. The stylized logo thing was almost always used by actual manufacturers. I think the only other distributor that had a stylized logo/name was one of the marks of Gustav Genschow (Geco) where they incorporated a stylized "G".

Andrei,

A very nice looking fire bayonet & a rare mark to boot. What is that thing in the center, an ice block holder? Quite an unusual item I've got a short one with magnetic pommel & wide blood groove too. Yours is the only other one I've seen so they must be unusual to find. Mine is an early piece, I suspect yours is as well. Very well made & a joy to examine.

Back to the age old manufacturers of Solingen. Certainly Robert Klaas is one that can't be ignored. Their mark is well known on 3R blades for sure & Klaas marks adorn many a dress bayonet.

Klaas marks on fire bayonets are relatively scarce but they do pop up from time to time. Of the 3 Klaas marks I've observed on fire bayonets, this one is the most common, the name & location surrounding the iconic kissing cranes. It's also the last one that I managed to find for my collection but that's how it goes sometimes. This one is a nicely conditioned long model with a nice surprise.

The surprise was the scarcely seen distributor mark of E. Höner, Weinheim. At the time I bought this piece a number of years ago, I had never heard of this distributor. Since that time I've seen a couple but they were ratty in appearance. Often times it's not just finding that rare piece but finding one in the condition we all like to collect.

Isn't this is one of the toughest decisions sometimes? A rare piece in less than optimal condition. I'll be honest, I usually jump for one as there have been occasions where I've seen 1 beater & never another.

This early Klaas mark is a tough one to locate, probably the toughest to find on a bayonet. Just the kissing cranes with nothing else. Maybe someone new to the game would be confused for a moment but those cranes can only mean 1 thing.

This one is a nice early short model with a narrow blood groove & magnetic pommel. It's a little unusual in that the maker mark is on the obverse whereas I seem to notice Klaas usually marked their items on the reverse.

Not only was the maker mark a bit of a rarity on this piece, the distributor mark was as well. The mark of Georg Reider, München is sometimes seen on Tigerwerk marked bayonets but obviously Reider had a contract with Klaas too.

This one is a bit of a rarity as well because the Reider mark is uncommon as well. I know Jim MacLean has one like this, I think it's a sawback too. Don't know if I've seen any others with this configuration which only makes it sweeter. To me anyway

This is my 3rd & final Klaas marked fire bayonet, not too common but they're out there. This is the mark some people say was made by "Robi Klaas"

It was my 1st short model, probably the 3rd or 4th bayonet I purchased. Don't some early purchases hold a special place in your heart? They do with me, well anyway it came from Jeff Slaker. I remember Jeff got a bunch of these pieces in & offered them to me. Jeff's stuff was always good as were his prices, money well spent IMO. Sadly no distributor on this one.

Nice bayonets Billy and all who have posted! Here's a humble minty long EuF Horster that I have.







JAN

Jan,

Thanks for posting your Hörster example. I don't think there's anything humble about such a bayonet, especially when it's in that type of condition. I believe this is the later of 2 Hörster logos used on Feuerwehr bayonets during the 3R.

Yours is unusual in that when the logo was applied, the center initials & sword weren't stamped into the blade steel. It does look like a very tiny bit of the bottom is there which is wild. Usually when we see incomplete strikes, the part that's missing is one of the sides or a corner. Very nice to see.

Here's my example with the same mark, on a short model with nonmagnetic pommel.

I did want an example with the sword & initials inside the double oval. This example had a nice obverse stamping that made it a keeper for sure, the unusual distributor mark of K. Negele Tübingen. In 10 years of looking I've seen this particular mark a scant 3 times.

While we're on the topic, I thought I'd post the other Hörster mark I've seen on fire bayonets. I believe this logo with a larger set of initials & the sword without double oval to be earlier than the one posted above, based on the materials of the 2 bayonets as well as seeing this mark on a few Weimar Polizei bayonets.

This bayonet is also a short model but with a solid magnetic pommel & nice heavy feel. Sadly there's no distributor mark on this one but hey, you can't have it all

There actually is another Hörster mark which is rarely seen. I've seen it on 1 (maybe 2?) fire bayonets & 1 or 2 Fallschirmjäger gravity knives. Needless to say it's a rare mark to find on anything. I believe Fisher's guide lists Hörstator as a trade name for Hörster. When I first saw it I didn't know what to make of it. The quality of the mark made me think it might even have been a fake which is absolutely was not.

I culled this picture from Eban many moons ago, the mark was on a long model sawback that sold for a lot of money. Something to shoot for in the future I think. I'd love to see shots of this mark on a fire bayonet if anyone has one.

This one was one of the first few FW'S I picked up i found it at an antique shop. its a Carl Schmidt

It's a short with magnetic pommel. note the not to often seen frog. It's brown with pointed bottom. Bavarian?

Hey Steve,

Thanks for posting your Schmidt. The pommel sheen on it just looks like an early piece which always makes it more desirable, to me anyway. Not sure about the frog being Bayern but it's a nice looking unit for sure. I've found some really nice, albeit inappropriate, frogs on fire bayonets. I'm ashamed to say I've occasionally bought a bayonet simply for the frog in the event it was something unique & special. One such example was a attic heat crazed black patent leather piece with a 2nd model aluminum Feuerwehr cap device pinned to the obverse. It also had a beater Heer knot to complete the rig. Maybe it was done by the vet, no way to know for sure but it was kinda unique & looked like something interesting to have.

Carl Schmidt & Sohn, AG, Solingen is an interesting company. According to Fisher's guide, they were established in 1829 & still in operation as of 2002. My edition (5th) lists them as having made SA, HJ & RAD officer's pieces but no mention of bayonets

Here's my Schimdt, also an early production short model, note the difference in size of the church & lettering in yours & mine. Yours also has a wide blood groove, always nice on a short model. Mine has either a narrow groove or the in between wide & narrow size, I don't remember at the moment. I've had several of these over the years in a slow stream of upgrading, I think this one is the best one I've seen thus far.

My only 2 sawbacks a short holler and long Eick and it was de-Eickhoned. funny never seen the squirrel holding a swaz.

Billy I remember the hörstator on Ebay some years back. i think it sold somewhere in the 500-$600 i think ?

steve.

Billy:

The Fisher guide is a work in progress, I believe.

There should be some way that we could pass info onto Fisher so that he can incorporate new information into his next version.

John

Hey Steve,

Great sawbacks! I agree with you, that squirrel didn't look like he was holding an acorn with swaz, WTF? Nice inventory marking on the crossguard too.

John,

Yes you're quite right. I learned this & like any good reference it's not written in stone. I spoke with the published about 4 or 5 years ago & provided them with dozens of new tidbits & pics of the logos for their use. I've sent them additional stuff in later years as time allows & was told the info would appear in later editions but I haven't picked up a later one to see. I don't necessarily think my 5th edition is outdated exactly but I'm sure the most recent edition (7th?) has plenty of more info.

If you have any new logo or model info, I think you can still get them at Bkswisewonderful@aol.com

Hey Billy,
you gonna smile ,but F.Plucker Jr. trade mark is....Rug Beater. (according Richard H.Bezdek "German sword and sword makers).

Hi Andrei,

You're right, I did laugh. I figured that item to be an ice block tongs for sure

Here's another fire bayonet with a logo that takes a moment to think about what it is, it's the mark of J. Dirlam & Söhne, Stahlwarenfabrik, Solingen-Mangenberg. Established in 1856 & still in operation in 2002. A rare mark on SAs & pretty scarce on a bayonet. I believe the logo is a button through a button hole but who knows? This one is a nicely conditioned short model with magnetic pommel.

Here is another fire bayonet with an unusual logo that at times can defy a seller's attempt to describe it. It's the mark of Johann Leupold, Beyreuth. Leupold made SA daggers with at least 3 different logos & trade names, Leuco, Johann Leupold & Johnnswerk.

This particular mark is a variation that shows a stylized "L" with a sword with no name or location. This piece came from Bill Shea many moons ago, listed as an unknown maker. This is a long model with nonmagnetic pommel.

Here's another variation on the Leupold logo, same stylized "L" with the company's name & location. This one is a short model with nonmagnetic pommel. Recently this one left my stable & was sold to a collector in Argentina. Small world

Billy,

Those Leupold pieces show a great TM, love it. From the design perspective, it's an amazing TM.

Here's an overview of all my fire pieces along with the fire axe to go with it:



JAN

Billy
Here is my short bladed Klass w/Rieder dist. Your are right about this TM, not seen to often.

Not my best job of pictures, hope to improve my picture taking this year.

Hey Terry,

Thanks for posting your Klaas/Reider piece, looks like a nice early short model. I didn't remember that you had one too but it shouldn't surprise me. This one looks mint!

The flat Reider logo is definitely the scarcer of the 2 Reider logos, at least as far as I've seen. Here's the other Reider logo with the name in an arc.

Here's the flip side to the arc Reider, a pretty common Tiger. Tiger/Reider is probably the most common of the dual marked fire pieces. This one is a short model with nonmagnetic pommel. If anyone's seen a Tiger or Puma fire bayonet with magnetic pommel, please let me know. I never have.

While we're on the topic of Tiger logos, here is the flip side of a Tiger fire bayonet. This one is currently on it's way to a collector friend in Belgium.

One last logo, this is an early Tiger variation that I believe is pretty rare on a bayonet. This one was on a postwar etched fire bayonet with ersatz stag grips on Eban a number of years ago.

Here's a shot of the blade obverse. These etches pop up every once in a while, all those I've seen thus far had serious questions about authenticity. A real shame because of the logo, in hindsight I probably should have bought it anyway just for reference.

Proper German term would be 'Freiwillige Feuerwehr'.

Herr Wolf,

I'm happy that some postwar etched blades can be vetted by something as simple as an improper spelling of something in the German. I for one would not have identified this mistake so many thanks for the German grammar clarification. I hope to start a separate thread on etched fire bayonets & their many postwar counterparts.


Since I was working on some of the many distributors of fire bayonets, I thought I'd throw in a few of the better known marks & some rarer variations of those marks. A lot of collectors may not find such plain & obscure stampings interesting but I would say often times it is their relative obscurity that makes them desirable.

Here is the more common of 2 marks I've observed for the firm of Albert Ziegler, Giengen-Brenz. The logo is deeply stamped into the obverse ricasso of this short model. The reverse is marked with the '35-'41 Eickhorn mark. I've observed a scarce few dual marked examples with this distributor & all were marked by Eick.

This Ziegler variation shows the name "Albert" dropped in favor of the first initial "A". While this mark is also on the blade's obverse ricasso, the direction of the logo is along the blade's length. Sadly this example is not dual marked, it is a long model with nonmagnetic pommel. I used to see these on Eban years back, not too much anymore.

Here is the more commonly seen mark of the distributor Carl Busse, Mainz. There looks to be the evidence of an initial first strike that was a little too high on the ricasso for whoever was marking the blades. Interestingly I've only observed Busse's mark on fire bayonets. This mark is on a very nicely conditioned short model with magnetic pommel.

Here is a variation Carl Busse mark which I've observed just once or twice in 10 years. While both of the Busse pieces I have are of early manufacture, I believe this one to be earlier as it has a green felt buffer which I've only seen on very early production pieces. This mark is a near mint long model with magnetic pommel.

Here is the mark of distributor Carl Henkel, Bielefeld. Henkel ran a Fire Department equipment store that started in 1871 & exists to this day.

http://www.carl-henkel.de/

You can still find the occasional Henkel marked blade on Eban or dealers' sites. This long model with magnetic pommel came with an unmarked frog that I'll compare in a subsequent post.

Here is a very rare variation of Henkel's mark with the first name spelled "Karl". This is interesting in that the company's name, well known on fire helmet liners & fire tunic labels, has always been observed as being spelled "Carl". In fact the company's logo on such items is a stylized "CH".

In 10+ years, I've seen this particular variation a total of 3 times, I missed one on Brian Maederer's site several years ago. 2 more popped up in later years & I got both of those. One of them is on it's way to a collector in Argentina. I'm facing the fact you just can't keep them all This one is a long model with nonmagnetic pommel.

All 3 Karl Henkel marked pieces that I've observed has this Solingen mark on the reverse ricasso.

A rare pair, together probably for the first time since the assembly line.

When I received 1 of the Karl Henkels, this was the icing on the cake. Maker marked patent leather frogs are pretty scarce but it's a very nice treat to find one that matches the distributor of the blade. The frog is near mint & very high quality as compared to the usually seen thin & heat crazed examples.

Here is a shot of the frog that came off the Karl Henkel bayonet (top) alongside the identical but unmarked frog (bottom) that came off the Carl Henkel bayonet. Same rivets, same stitching, same leather, exact but for the mark.

Many would think that we as collectors would be familiar with the marks that adorn the Solingen blades we collect but this is not always so. While books like Fisher's guide & Anthony Carter's volume 1 do a great deal in assisting us identify obscure maker marks, there are still plenty of marks out there that we know nothing about. Here are a few of these pieces & their marks.

The mark on this bayonet, JHW-E, is still unidentified. I've seen 2 or 3 of this mark only which leads me to believe it might be the mark of a distributor. The initials looks like it might be a 3 initial name with the "E" being a location. This might be completely incorrect but it's interesting to think about. This long model bayonet came from Ron Weinand & it has a nonmagnetic pommel. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Here is another such unknown mark, L&WH in a circle. Again, maybe a distributor but maybe not as I've seen this mark for many years. Not common but common enough that it's anyone's guess.

Most that I observed were late production & in less than nice condition so it took several years of looking to find one in the shape I was looking for. This mark is on the obverse ricasso of a long model with nonmagnetic & despite the poor quality parts, doesn't show it's age.

You've all probably seen this mark occasionally on a dealer's site or Eban, they are scarce but out there. No one I know of is aware of the origin of this mark, H&PK inside a triangle. Distributor? Maybe, no one knows definitively so it's up in the air.

This mark is on the obverse ricasso of a late production long model with nonmagnetic hilt. Anyone with a hint of this mark's origin, please post your thoughts.

I've seen this mark a total of once, this one is it. It came from a German dealer several years ago & he had no information to impart regarding the crown logo. Initially I thought it might be the mark from the Erfurt armory but that mark is slightly different & usually has "Erfurt" underneath. There are several other manufacturers, Schmidt being one, that incorporated a crown in their usual logos but none have been exact.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of a late production long model that's starting to show it's age. Please be sure to post any thoughts on this mark if you have any ideas.

This mark, "HK" in a dotted circle, has been spoken about for years on GD. There were several suggestions as to the mark's identity but Peter Costible suggested to me that he thought it was the mark of Heinrich Krieghoff, the famed Luger manufacturer. As proof, Peter sent me a picture from a Luger reference book showing Krieghoff's mark.

The mark which was on the top of a pistol was identical to this mark, down to the dotted circle. Nothing definite but it seems this might be the maker's identity. To my knowledge, Krieghoff is not credited with manufacturing any other edged weapon.

This mark is one of three I own & have observed. It was my first HK & the one most frequently encountered by collectors. This mark is on the obverse of a short model with nonmagnetic hilt.

This variation HK mark also has the dotted circle but is slightly different from the preceeding one in that the letter bottoms have serifs. HK is a scarce mark but I've only observed this variation 2 or 3 times in 10 years.

This mark is on the obverse of a very nicely conditioned, early production short model with magnetic hilt.

This is the last of the 3 HK marks. The logo is in script & I didn't know what to make of it when I received it. But I noticed the dotted circle which was similar to the other HK marks & then I realized the initials were a cursive HK.

The grip plates on this example is lighter in color that the usually seen black bakelite. The grip plates are either a type of plastic or wood & they exhibit holes that look like wormholes. I've seen this same material on other early production pieces & for some reason it doesn't seem to hold up well. The blade is very nice as is the rest of it. This is the 3rd example I've seen of this mark.

I sold Terry Kissinger one of the others, the grip had the afforementioned wormholes. Terry is a nut for condition & knowing this, he still wanted the one I sold him which must tell you something about the rarity of the mark

This mark is on the obverse of a early production short model with magnetic hilt.

This bayonet is not a fireman's bayonet, per se, but it factors into the current "unknown" category in several ways. First, notice the logo which looks to be an Imperial fire helmet with top comb. I've seen some dealers offer bayonets with this mark offering the suggestion that it's an early fire bayonet. Maybe, maybe not but the logo is cool IMO despite the crossguard not being recurved. Sometimes this logo is accompanied by the initials "W.F.P" but not always. Anyone with an idea as to the identity of this mark please post your thoughts.

The bakelite grip plates are the identical material as the preceeding HK with script logo. From this picture, you can see one of the wormholes that these grips tend to suffer from. There are a couple more on the reverse grip too

The blade on this example is 10 1/4" in length, not the 9 3/4" usually seen on long model bayonets. I have several other fire examples that have such a blade, all are very early production. This example also sports a green felt blade buffer which can sometimes be seen on the early pieces. This mark is on the obverse of a very early production bayonet with magnetic pommel & "T/O" slot.

A better shot of the bayonet's obverse hilt. I've seen maybe a dozen of these pieces & they're usually in beat up condition although the blades are close to pristine. Guess they don't make 'em like they used to.

Billy:

Peter is correct... the 1st HK mark for Heinrich Krieghoff is shown in the Fisher Quick Reference (it's on page 1249 of the 7th edition).

Paul Hogle has had one on his site for a while at lakesidetrader.com

John

sorry about the crap pic but , here is my J.H.W.-E. i too would like more info if poss guys

Billy

I'm (we) are enjoying your fire thread. I'm trying to improve my photo taking so I thought I would test them here. The below photos are of my Horst Wolff Fire bayonet. Ok top photo is a little soft I'll use my tripod next time. The name is etched on the spine of the blade.

Thanks again Billy for restarting this thread.

I guess I need to learn how to adjust the lighting better.

Anyway, here is a Peter Lunstrass, Solingen Ohligs, see TM insert.

Terry,

I'm very happy you're enjoying the new thread, I'm enjoying it as well. Since the last one disappeared, I know a lot of new pieces have been acquired so this one might even work out to be as good as the last one or better. I'm hoping anyway. I took a number of these shots months ago but had time issues in terms of lightening/darkening the shots as well as reducing them, but had been meaning to reastart it for a while. I'm very happy thus far.

Your inset photography & microscope logo shots is very professional & puts my crummy shots to shame. Thanks for posting some of your pieces, I know you have some real nice ones. Looking at them on GD always renewed my interest in Feuerwehr & dress bayonet collecting in general at times when my interst might wane.

Here's a shot of the Lungstrass lightfixture, a maker that I believe cannot have made very many bayonets at all. Besides your 2 & my 1, maybe I've seen 1 other. A tough mark to find & an even tougher mark to photograph. This mark is quite small & tough to get the detail to show up, even with a macro setting. This mark is on a long model with nonmagnetic blade, nicely conditioned but not nearly as nice as yours!


Will,

Thanks for showing your JHW-E, a very rare mark to find. I know of one other on the net now although I don't think the condition is so hot. I took a cursory look at Fisher's & Carter's books but didn't see anything that looked like it fit. Maybe something's there? I'll give it a closer look one of these days, just to see if anything in there fits with the initials.


John,

I had no doubts about Peter C's thought about Krieghoff. I remember looking at the guides & there were a few possibilites with the initials "HK" but that dotted circle made it a no brainer. It's an exact match but something very interesting as I don't think Krieghoff is credited with making any other blades.

Since I mentioned the maker in the last post, here's a shot of Hoppe & Homann, Hufeisenfabrik, Minden in Westf & their nice stylized logo. Another member pointed out in the last fire bayonet thread that a Hufeisenfabrik was a horseshoe manufacturer

This is another one of those marks that is attributed to an obscure maker & not a manufacturer, who's mark only appears on fire bayonets. There are others I'll add as time allows. It's very interesting though since the only difference between a fire bayonet & standard KS98 was the hilt.

This mark is on a nice short model with wide blood groove & magnetic pommel. Them horseshoe makers made nice bayonets

Speaking of marks that are exclusive to fire bayonets, Horst Wolff, GmbH Leipzig, is such a distributor. Old Horst's marks used to be one of the more frequently seen distributor marks. Still is actually but Horst had some variation marks that weren't seen so much.

Here is the most commonly seen Horst Wolff mark, very small block letters crunched together into the ricasso. You can still snag one of Eban or a dealer's site if you look. This particular mark in addition to having the corporation designation GmbH (Gesellschaft mit beschraenkter Haftung) & in addition to having the location of Leipzig, also includes the postal code of C1. Of the 4 Horst Wolff marks I've observed, the 2 later ones have it.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of a later production long model with nonmagnetic pommel. Sorry for the poor shot with smudge

This is a Horst Wolff variation that I've seen once. Yup, this one is all I've seen. When the seller mentioned the mark to me in an email & it didn't include the postal code, I thought it might be some variant. Happily I was right. The mark has larger, deeper letters in an arc.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of a very minty early long model with magnetic pommel.

Once in a while we see a bayonet with a distributor's mark etched into the blade spine & Horst Wolff is one of those few distributors to do it. After seeing Terry's example (posted above) some years back, I predictably decided I had to have one. They're out there but not often seen & then you have the condition aspect. I did get one in the mail but it was a beater & it just stuck in my craw. I flipped it fast & set out for another.

This one came relatively cheaply as the seller mentioned the mark without the fact of where it was located. I magnified the ricasso shots which looked devoid of marks & thought this one a spine piece. A slight touch of old rust on the pommel is all that really skews it from being really super. Overall still a nice piece that I can't bring myself to part with.

This mark is on an early long model with beautifully elongated crossguard & magnetic Eickhorn pommel although the piece is not dual marked.

This is the 4th Horst Wolff mark I've observed & this is the only time I've seen it. Instead of the normally seen perpendicular ricasso mark, this mark runs along the blade & is lightly done. In fact some of the letters are tough to make out but when the seller mentioned "Leipzig", I figured I knew who it was.

This mark is similar to a Albert Ziegler variation mark I posted above. Very shallow & looks almost acid etched. This one also has the postal code & from the construction looks to be later production. These late production pieces often show their age a little more that I like but we collectors sometimes make concessions, especially when a rare mark comes around.

This mark is on the obverse ricasso of a late production long model.

Had a bad computer failure a couple of weeks ago the result being I had to buy a new one. I'm still rebuilding my favorites, trying desperately to remember passwords etc. I finally got back on here today and imagine my delight at finding this thread resurrected from the ashes so to speak. It was always my favorite thread.

It's off to a great start already, some beautiful pieces and an amazing number of views already. Thanks for starting it back up Billy.

My sawback unfortunately isn't a Reider/Klaas, it's a Klaas with the inventory #24 on the obverse crossguard. Still quite a nice piece though not perfect.

You ask about Tiger/Puma with magnetic pommel etc., my short Tiger has a magnetic pommel and crossguard. It has the slinking tiger on the obverse with TIGER over SOLINGEN on the reverse, one of my better pieces as well. My Puma though is pot metal.

I suppose all this means that I have to learn about my new camera . Hopefully some pics coming shortly.

This A. Ziegier is like the one you posted. There are other versions of this distributor. I have another one with Albert Ziegler in an oval over Giengen Brenz w/ Eickhorn on the oppsite side. This bayonet is just about as mint as you can find.

Jim,

Glad to see you back on the computer & online The fire bayonet thread was my favorite too & I'm happy it's back. I remembered that there were a lot more pieces I had to photograph before I restarted it but then procrastination took it's toll.

Very interesting about your magnetic Tiger, I've never seen one myself & I've handled bunches of Tiger pieces. Can you post it when time allows? I'd like to see if there are any differences between it & the others.


Terry,

That Ziegler looks pretty minty, the logo is very well stamped too. How different is the other oval Ziegler logo you refer to from the one I posted on page 3? Mine is a short model dual marked with the '35-'41 Eickhorn mark.

P.D. Lüneschloss is a maker mark you hardly ever see on a dress bayonet. According to Fisher, PDL was established in 1810 & although no date of closing is given in my edition, we can tell they were making blades at least as late as 1939 because we know they made RZM SS daggers with that date.

I've observed this particular mark on Weimar Polizei bayonets & hirschfangers as well as the occasional 3R era bayonet. Has anyone seen it on anything else?

This bayonet is a very early production short model with wide blood groove & magnetic pommel. Similar to many early pieces from lesser seen manufacturers, this one exhibits an Eickhorn hilt.

Here is the flip side to the preceeding bayonet, it shows the a later PDL logo with helmet & sword although this exact logo is still relatively early. The bakelite pattern on this bayonet is the later seen type but it does show an early tan felt blade buffer that is original to the piece.

This is another PDL logo, the latest of the three I have. This logo employs the helmet & sword logo inside an oval with the firm's name & location within the oval. The hilt of this bayonet is very clearly not Eickhorn so I presume PDL's contract to produce fire bayonets was not exclusive.

This mark is on a later production long model with nonmagnetic pommel.

Unlike Polizei bayonets which are frequently encountered with unit markings, it's only occasionally that we find fire bayonets so marked. Even then, many of the markings appear to simply be inventory numbers with no indication of which department the bayonet was used in.

This bayonet is unit marked & there is no question over which department it was carried in, arguably the biggest in Germany. I've seen several Berlin marked pieces over the years & all have been marked in this manner, roughly stamped on the reverse crossguard. This one shows the inventory number 1789 & is I believe the highest number I've observed. I picked this one up from Bill Shea many years ago & while not perfect, is still an upgrade from an earlier one I had.

This bayonet is a long model later production piece with unmarked ricasso & nonmagnetic pommel.

This is the frog that came on the Berlin marked piece, nicely dated 1937 & maker marked to a Berlin manufacturer. It's always nice to see small connections like this between bayonets & accouterments.

Nearly all Berlin FW marked bayonets will be found with blades devoid of makers' marks, but not all. Twice I've observed very early fire bayonets that were marked to the Berlin FW & maker marked by Alcoso. We know Alcoso had one of the bigger contracts to produce Polizei bayonets just by the number of Alcoso pieces we see in collections, so it doesn't come as a real surprise that Alcoso scored at least 1 contract to produce fire bayonets.


Alcoso is one of the older & more well known of Solingen's manufacturers, having been established in either 1821 or 1842, according to my edition of Fisher's, & still in operation as late as 2002. The symbol of the scales was used in nearly all of Alcoso's numerous maker mark variations.


This bayonet looks to be of very early production. The bakelite shows the early wide diamond pattern & the rivets look to be brass based & in the shape I've observed on early Alcoso KS98s. The pommel has the typical early Alcoso shape & the recurved crossguard has the classic stubby Alcoso arms. The inventory number is a mystery, it could be 145, 1453, 1455 or 1458 as the last digit is obscured by the "FW". It doesn't matter though as the character & age of this piece make it a keeper for me. I was lucky enough to find another & it currently holds an esteemed place in the very nice unit marked collection of Steven C.


Another treat about this piece, the blade is longer than the usually seen 9 3/4" but measures in at 10 1/4". This Alcoso is a very early long model bayonet with magnetic pommel.

This was a nice treat that came attached to the Alcoso marked Berlin FW bayonet, a similarly marked frog. This was the first time I had observed such a frog but they must be out there somewhere. The leather on it is thick but still fairly supple & it shows just the slightest of loose stitching. It came to me directly from the Fatherland.

Here's a better shot of the maker mark, coming back to Berlin manufacturer Karl Dietz.

While we're on the topic of Alcoso, here's another Alcoso without unit marking. This one shows the same early Alcoso mark & has an early tan felt blade buffer. This mark is on an short model with magnetic pommel.

My last Alcoso example with a variation mark that I believe is slightly later then the preceeding 2. It's a little more detailed with the name "Alcoso", the lettering is more intricate & it has the location of Solingen. This one fell into my lap from Eban years ago.

As you can see, the short blade is in the form of a nice sawback. Although there is some darkening on the pommel, it is magnetic & heavy in hand.

Billy:

Thank you for this thread... amazing.

Please keep it up, I am panting in anticipation.

John

Here is one of my twin sets. Peter Müller, Gummersbach.

One has an inventory number M11 and the other M18. I know of another Fireman bayonet that is marked with a number with the M following the number.

Hi John,

Thanks for the kind words . I have lots more but have to resize most of them. Haven't had too much computer time lately but I'll try to give it a shot tomorrow.



Hey Terry,

Beautiful pair of bayonets. The mark is scarce if not rare IMO but it's super nice to have a minty pair with unit markings. Some guys have all the luck

Here's mine, some light scratching on the blade but it's fine overall. This mark is on a long model with nonmagnetic pommel.

quote:

Originally posted by Billy G.:
I've seen this mark a total of once, this one is it. It came from a German dealer several years ago & he had no information to impart regarding the crown logo. Initially I thought it might be the mark from the Erfurt armory but that mark is slightly different & usually has "Erfurt" underneath. There are several other manufacturers, Schmidt being one, that incorporated a crown in their usual logos but none have been exact.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of a late production long model that's starting to show it's age. Please be sure to post any thoughts on this mark if you have any ideas.

Billy, hey! say I came here to post some photos of my short sawback rig and while reading I came upon this post of yours. anyway my thoughts on the crown mark only is this. thats its from the firm Carl and Robert Linder. You were correct about the erfurt crown, its much more complex if you have a bit take a look at Carter's A-L ref and check out Linder. I have been working on my hang tag reference and have a postwar Linder tag that I have been working on and the crown mark stuck out to me when I seen your post. I wont say this is "the final word" but it looks like a match in my view. Now I have to finish your postings and shoot a few pics of my short saw.
Bret Van Sant

Bret:

I think that you have nailed it... I looked at the maker marks in Fisher under Carl & Robert Linder and saw the same crown: four panels, the cross and a circle under the panels.

John

Here is my short sawback. My light took a poop so you got overcast at best my bad! I dont have a decent way to display my control tags so this one ended up here, it didnt come this way.

again

more

Hey John! I should amend my post a bit also. The crown mark while close to one example of C&R Linder is also "close" to Peter Rosenkaimer maker mark. However Peter Paul maker mark is much later. The crown that matches the one Billy shows on his fire bayo C&R linder with the knife and crown in a circle is the one that is the exact match for the pictured firemans Billy shows. whew!!
Bret

Bret,

Well done on identifying the Linder logo, I think you're right indeed. I had a list somewhere of likely candidates with crown type logos but of course can't find it now. The differences in some of the crowns were very minute & it always bugged me why a manufacturer would use something as innocuous as a crown with no other identifying marks.

Very nice Horster sawback, don't think I've seen a shortie from Horster before. Quite well conditioned & certainly deserving of that control tag. Sort of a wide blood groove for a short model too. Nice trait & a nice bayonet overall. Thanks for sharing it!

Billy, The tag just hangs out on it. I aint foolin nobody saying the tag came with it.
And on the C&R Linder deal, more work would need to be done to make that 100% positive. Does Terry list a CR Linder on his maker list of bayos? The little mystery things are the real nice parts of collecting.This is a good example of the reason I have ask that the maker mark gallery continue to be worked on but seems Vern is ok with what they have, which is several holes.Just getting by anymore does not cut it! Many nice examples have been shown here. Someone should pin this to the top as well as terrys maker mark list. If they can.
Bret Van Sant

quote:

Originally posted by cog-hammer:
Someone should pin this to the top as well as Terry's maker mark list. If they can.
Bret Van Sant

Wonderful suggestion!!
Hopefully this will happen.

I have never seen a C. R. Linder TM on a Heer, Luft. or Firemans bayonet, except the one Billys owns. But there is so many TM's I haven't seen. Several collectors have helped me assemble my TM list. When Billy sent me the photo of his I assumed it may have been an early piece.

I've never seen a C&R Linder mark on any type of bayonet at all. While it's possible the crown logo could be someone other than Linder, I think Bret has nailed it. Always wondered about that one too thanks man!

BTW Terry, the Linder crown logo bayonet isn't an early production piece as far as I can tell. The materials & weight of it makes me think later production.


Here's another mark that I've never seen on a bayonet although this manufacturer's mark is always in demand on Heer & Luft daggers as well as especially coveted on SS daggers. It's the logo of Arthur Schüttelhöffer & Co, Solingen-Wald. This piece came from Ron Reide for a nominal price, it's not mint by any means but certainly nice enough not to pass up. I had thought I'd just get it as a space filler & upgrade sometime in the future. That was 7 or 8 years ago, I'm still waiting to find that other piece. Has anyone seen another?

This mark is on a very early production long model with a magnetic pommel that has an Eickhorn pommel & crossguard. A keeper for sure.

Here's another mark that's one I've never observed on a fire bayonet or bayonet of any kind, the logo of Ernst Knecht & Co., Solingen-Wüstenhof/Wuppertal.

This nice piece was an Eban find, the seller couldn't really identify the maker mark except to say it had "stags or something similar" which made me think the elk logo of Robert Schaaf. When I got a good picture of it though I realized it had to be a variation of the Knecht logo which I was somewhat familiar from SA daggers.

This mark is on a very well conditioned long model with magnetic pommel.

Billy, very nice!
I can add my own twist on the maker mark. I know most folks could care less but its amazing you have found a bayonet with this mark!!

And here is a seal from the same firm note the dates on the tag vs. the seal. The seal is on a box but I wont show the box until I get a better grip on what would have came in it. Again the bayo with this mark is to me just fantastic!!

Bret,

I've certainly never seen anything from Knecht in the nature of tags or boxes. Just great items, thanks for posting them.


Here's another mark I've seen on a dress bayonet just once, the logo of Hammerfahr Cie. According to Fisher's, Hammesfahr was a fairly common manufacturer of SA daggers with their swimmer logo, founded in 1919 & the company was still in operation as late as 2002.

This piece would have caught my eye as it's not common on bayonets at all but when something is both rare & on a fire bayonet it presents a real prize for me. Not a sexy logo by any means but the rarity does it for me. This one came to me from a fellow collector in the midwest a year ago & I was both lucky & happy to get it. I'd love to know if anyone else has seen this mark on a dress bayonet at all.

This mark is on a minty long model with magnetic pommel.

Here is another maker I've seen just once on a bayonet, the logo of Gust. Häker. According to Anthony Carter's book, Haker was founded "before 1920" & was a maker of bread, fruit & meat knives as well as pocket knives. We've seen the Häker logo on SA/NSKK daggers as well as HJ knives & now a bayonet.

I was again both happy & lucky to find it before someone else snapped it up. It came all the way from England from a dealer who's name escapes me at the moment. From what I understand this is not a common mark on anything, I've seen it on the occasional SA dagger but apparently they made bayonets as well.

This mark is on the obverse ricasso of an early & beautifully minty long model with magnetic pommel.

Another treat with the Gust. Häker piece was the surprise I got when I unwrapped it from the bubblewrap, a dual maker mark showing a man with hat & a pickaxe. Collectors are used to surprises for the most part, things that show up upon delivery that weren't apparent in pictures. At least this was a good surprise

Here is a scarce mark to find on a fire bayonet, the logo of Arthur Evertz, Hersteller blanker Waffen, Solingen. According to Carter, the company was founded in 1925 by Arthur Evertz (who incidentally was the brother in law of the well known manufacturer Paul Seilheimer). Carter lists Evertz as a manufacturer of 1st & 2nd model Luftwaffe daggers, Heer daggers & some early SA daggers.

I have seen this mark on dress bayonets albeit sparingly & maybe 2 or 3 times on a fire bayonet. This mark is on the obverse ricasso of a later production long model with nonmagnetic pommel.

This is the other Evertz mark seen on bayonets, the AES initials in a square. This is the only time I've observed this mark on a fire bayonet & am not sure if I've ever seen it on a Heer/Luft bayonet but if so, it can't have been more than once. If anyone has such a mark, please be so kind to post it.

This bayonet is not minty by any means although it's still probably Exc. This piece came to me from Eban for a song, probably because the scabbard had a lot of crud stuck to the outside so I bet a lot of bidders were put off.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of a late production short model with nonmagnetic pommel.

Although this wasn't a surprise, it certainly helped me want this piece. You just don't find inventory or unit markings on fire bayonets very often so I like to take them into consideration. While the mark itself isn't too telling, combining it with the rare mark made it a keeper. I know Terry posted some nice bayonets with an "M", who knows if they're from the same department or not.

As you can see the blade exhibits the remains of some tool cleaning it with steel wool although thankfully it wasn't sharpened. Some people just shouldn't be trusted with nice collectibles

Here is one version of a Hermann Schellhorn Offenbach A. M.

Terry,

Nice Schellhorn marked piece, looks like a Pack grip & rivets which is a nice tidbit too. I really dig putting together manufacturers with their distributors & it isn't always easy on pieces that aren't dual marked. This one makes it a little easier though which is nice. Really well conditioned too which is a rarity, the Schellhorns I've come across are usually later production that show their age less gracefully that I'd hope.


Schellhorn is another one of those distributors that I've only observed on fire bayonets. Here's my example which also has the offset Pack rivets. This etched mark logo is on the reverse ricasso of a later production long model bayonet with nonmagnetic pommel.

Here is another variation of the Hermann Schellhorn mark, this one stamped instead of etched. As far as fire bayonet distributors go, Schellhorn is probably the most commonly seen, if not the second most commonly seen. I guess their store in Offenbach am Main did a brsk business.

This mark is on the obverse ricasso of a later production short model bayonet with nonmagnetic pommel.

Here's a fire bayonet by the scarcely seen distributor of Hans Grünwald, Magdeburg which nicely includes the firm's address at the time. I've observed a Grünwald mark without the address as well & have seen both marks on the occasional Heer/Luft dress bayonet but this is the only time I was lucky enough to find it on a fire bayonet. Admittedly this bayonet is not in the best of shape but again, when I find one that I figure is pretty rare, I usually get it & hope to upgrade. Had this one about 6 or 7 years & am still waiting As far as maker/distributor connections, I know someone who has a Hörster piece dual marked with Grünwald.

This mark is on the obverse ricasso of a later production long model with nonmagnetic pommel.

Here is a tough distriburor to find, the mark of Hans Gukumus, Wittenberg. Only one I've ever seen before or since, thanks to Ron Weinand for helping me out with this one. There's a light attempt at sharpening that some tool did but it wasn't enough to throw this one back. Another thing I like about distributors is unlike manufacturers which mostly hailed from Solingen, distributors were widely scattered & dotted the map around Germany.

This etched mark is on the reverse ricasso of a later production short model with nonmagnetic pommel.

Here are the three versions of H. Schellhorn.

Schellhorn 1

Schellhorn 2

Now I know where I got those photos from. Nice pair I don't have. Hear I missed you at the gun show last Sat. Talked to Dick H. for awhile. Got my rooms for the SOS is Feb. maybe I'll find some treasures.

Great Schellhorn Terry! Just when I was thinking I had enough you go inspiring me to find one of those variations, ha. Actually your variation is the scarcest of the 3 IMO & now that I know Terry's looking for one, I'm really in a pickle

quote:

Originally posted by TKissinger:
Now I know where I got those photos from. Nice pair I don't have. Hear I missed you at the gun show last Sat. Talked to Dick H. for awhile. Got my rooms for the SOS is Feb. maybe I'll find some treasures.

Sorry I missed you Terry. I knew Pat was going to the Humane Society Shelter so I left the gun show early. Not early enough however. This is what was waiting for me when I got home.

There is an up-side however. Pat never noticed what I brought home from the gun show. A nice "a" block P640(b).
Sorry Billy - back to the FW stuff. Great thread!

Denny,

Thanks! I hope you can add some of your nice pieces to this thread like last time. For what it's worth, I think you did OK with the pooch & pistol. Humane Society is the way to go too. He looks cute, a worthy compromise

I thought I would add one to the unit marked FW'S. Billy should know this one Terry some time back gave me info on the abbreviation. FEU = Fire LTG = Adminstration. or in German Feuer Leitung. it is tm marked Horster

Denny, looks like you have a full house now. is he/she a bayo collector yet

2

Steven, she's not a bayonet collector yet but she IS a brat!

Here is another marked one for your consideration - Eickhorn/219

Eickhorn/219

Denny:

I love your Eick, but then I like Eick.

John

This is not a new one but goes along with Dennys.

How about a nice WKC W/C.A. STAEHLE distributor and inventory number 399, scabbard also stamped

Steve,

Wow, I sold you that piece? What the hell was I thinking? Seriously, I knew it was going to a good home. Thanks to Terry too for the translation. I figured "FEU" was for Feuerwehr but was drawing a blank on the "LTG". Administration makes sense too.


Denny,

That's a sweet Eick rig, really nothing not to like on such a piece. You can really never go wrong on an Eick that's conditioned like this. I'm with John, I like Eick too


Terry,

I remember that piece, a real stunner. You've got the trifecta there, nice rare distributor, dual marked with a maker & inventory numbered. Really super piece & I dig the numbering on the scabbard throat. Just a great piece, please keep me in mind if you ever lose yours & decide to sell it

Here's my example with the Staehle mark on the obverse ricasso which it seems is a variation of yours. I searched long & hard to find this one & if memory serves paid a bunch for it but I haven't seen one since so there you go.

Another nice part about my Staehle is that it's dual marked, not WKC, this one has an Eick '35-'41 mark. It's also inventory numbered on the reverse crossguard although the scabbard is not so marked. The font looks similar to the one on Denny's but very different from Terry's.

These marks are on a long model with magnetic pommel which is quite unusual since the '35-'41 mark is usually seen with later production nonmagnetic pommels. This is only the 1st or 2nd '35-'41 Eick that I've seen with magnetic hilt.

Here's another obscure distributor, Hans Krämer Nürnberg. Seen this one maybe once or twice other than this one so while they're out there, they just ain't that common This bad boy came from Eban at a time when I had to have the seller reiterate the name several times. "You're sure it's Kramer?".

This mark is on the obverse ricasso of a nicely conditioned short model with magnetic pommel. The reverse ricasso is marked "Garantie Solingen".

Another obscure mark, that of Sautter Lahr. I believe the town of Lahr near the Black Forest to be the location which leads me to believe Sautter is the name of a distributor. Nice early piece with a tan felt blade buffer.

Things came full circle on this piece, it was on Eban years back & I got sniped at the end. At the time it was more than I wanted to pay for it but silly me, I knew this was a rare mark. But all was not lost, when the buyer was selling his collection years later I was in the right place at the right time.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of a nicely conditioned & early long model with magnetic pommel.

Billy or(and) terry any chance of an overall pic of all your fw's ? just so the rest of us with merely a handful can enjoy , billy i'm still looking for more info on what i agree with you is the distributor mark J.H.W.-E I will find out who they are eventually, i have been quite successful in the past with other obscure markings on various militaria , it just takes an age traweling through various references any help would be much appreciated :-)

Hi Will,

Unusual I agree but I don't have a group shot of my fire pieces. At last count it was between 105 - 110 so it would have to be a wide shot. I'm sure Terry has a group shot of his bunch though.

wow
Very nice collection TKissinger.
Can you show some close pictures of EPACK plain
bayonets.
Thanks Stingray

Stingray

Check on Monday.

Terry,

Great display options, I always enjoy seeing your stuff. Especially that oak cabinet, it's exactly what I've been looking for & just can't seem to find locally. I found a couple several thousand miles away but the shipping was ridiculous. Thanks for the kind words too


Ray,

Been meaning to post the E. Pack examples but hadn't gotten around to it. I've observed a total of 5 Pack logos on fire bayonets however there may be more as Pack had lots of logo variations. Until recently I only had 2 & while actively looking had still missed out on a few opportunities over the years. If anyone has others, please post 'em for everyone.

This was my first Pack, a pretty typical example of mid period production with adequate plating but not nearly as good as some of the earlier pieces. It's a nice logo incorporating a striking Wotan with the Pack name & location of Solingen underneath. Sadly I didn't have the appreciation for Pack when I got this that I do now, the main reason I got it was because of the spanner nut grip configuration which was a new one for me. Thanks to DD Harris for this one.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of a long model with nonmagnetic pommel & spanner nut grip plate configuration.

This one was my second Pack logo which showed a striking Wotan flaked to the right by the company's name & location in larger letters than the previous example. Also by comparison this one seems much earlier judging by it's weight & construction.

Interestingly the grip rivets are not offset as so many Pack products seem to display. Wayne Techet had mentioned in his tome "German Etched Dress Bayonets" that this fact was likely explained by Pack purchasing parts for it's Feuerwehr & Pioniere style estra seitengewehre from other manufacturers. Makes a lot of sense. This one came from the bowels of Eban back in the day, cheaply too but that was when you could still get plenty of bargains there.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of an early production short model with wide blood groove & magnetic pommel.

This is the so called Siegfried Pack logo which we've all seen on Heer/Luftwaffe daggers & a number of other dress daggers as well as dress bayonets. But finding a nicely conditioned fire example wasn't as easy. I know DD Harris had a beauty for a while but when I finally woke up, alas it was gone. Serves me right.

The logo is nice & ornate & it seems to convey old Ernst P. having a lot of pride in his wares. The ubiquitous Wotan is ever present surrounded by a stylized "S" for Siegfried Waffen. The lettering while still in block letters, is somewhat more stylized than in the previous examples. From what I've read here on GD, this logo is usually seen on later produced pieces. With respect to this bayonet I believe that to be the case from it's overall quality, nice but not nearly as nice as the earlier done pieces. The grip plates show typical Pack offset rivets.

This mark is on a later production long model with nonmagnetic pommel.

I had an opportunity to acquire this variation a few years ago & I screwed up & let it pass me by. A stupid move since this was maybe the only time I had seen the logo too. Anyway I endeavored to snag it the next time I saw a nicely conditioned example & happily I had the chance this summer.

This Pack variation shows Wotan centered in the ricasso, bordered on top by Pack's initials "EP&S" & on the bottom by the factory's location & something not usually seen on Pack's logo, the term "ges gesch" (patent pending). The mark is nicely centered & deeply stamped. I've read that this logo is a later variation for Pack but don't know that to be the case judging from this piece which shows very nice construction & early quality parts.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of a long model with magnetic pommel.

This was the final Pack variation that I acquired recently. I've seen it maybe twice but always after it had been sold. Those observed were identical to this example in that all were early production short model bayonets. The logo, which must have acheived some element of buyer recognition by this time, consists merely of a striking Wotan centered on the ricasso. No name, no location, no patent pending, nada, just Wotan. Sorta like all those celebutards nowadays that are known by only their first names, Pack must have known their plainest logo would still be recognized. The grip plates show nonPack centered rivets.

This mark is on the obverse ricasso of a very nicely conditioned short model with wide blood groove & magnetic pommel

Here's the view from the previous example's reverse ricasso, "Garantie Solingen". Some think this is some sort of local guarantee that the piece was produced in Solingen which is probably the case IMO. Some others think this might have been a local distributor. Whatever it is, we don't see the mark too often.

Billy,
What a great thread! I really enjoy you taking the time to show off your collection.

I see the mark "Garantie Solingen" on a lot of straight razors, pocket knifes and have seen a genick with this mark.

Gee, I don't think I can add to what Billy has already posted on E. Pack fire bayonets.

Terry,

I had some time this weekend, sorry Have you seen any other Pack variations not pictured on fire or Heer/Luft bayonets? I racked my records but didn't see any others on any type of bayonet in my records.



Mikee,

Thanks very much for the kind words. I'd been meaning to restart the thread for a long while but didn't have the time. Now that it's started I'm glad to be getting these pieces back up & am happy the brothers are enjoying the show. Please feel free to throw anything Feuerwehr you've got up there.

Here's a fire bayonet with the scarce mark of Baron. Way back we thought Baron was probably just a small obscure maker or distributor. Fisher's guide lists Baron as a distributor who marked Heer daggers, combat knives & bayonets. It was Terry Kissinger & Denny Gaither who were able to deduce that Baron was actually a distributor mark for Gottfried Weyersberg Söhne KG, Solingen.

There's a thread somewhere back in the bowels of the BCN forum but essentially it boiled down to a Baron mark on one of Denny's bayonets (not this type) that showed a trophy cup with 3 stars. Someone remembered that this same mark with the cup & stars was used on Weyersberg's SA daggers which made the connection. Thanks to our very own Bob Iqbal & Jim Taylor who were kind enough to find this one for me.

This mark is on the obverse ricasso of a long model with nonmagnetic pommel.

Here's a very nice unit with the old salt logo of CD Schaaf, Solingen. This is another one of those really scarce (rare?) marks that you hardly if ever find on a bayonet let alone a fire bayonet. Never seen another before or since so I guess it's a keeper. Fisher's lists Schaaf as starting production in 1871, as also evidenced by the maker mark.

This bayonet is in super overall condition showing early production quality & an Eickhorn hilt, similar to a number of other examples I have of seldom seen, early produced bayonets that seem to all have been made by Eick. You can see the beautifully elongated crossguard in the pic. Many thanks to Rick Schreiber for this one.

This old salt is on the reverse ricasso of a minty long model with magnetic pommel.

I believe Paul Seilheimer marked bayonets have been observed showing a total of 3 maker marks, the dog with sword, the sword with martini glass & the PS initials in a circle with the last one being the only mark I've seen on a fire bayonet. Who knows, they may be out there though. Seilheimer marked fire bayonets are relatively scarce although they do pop up on dealer sites & occasionally on Eban so they're out there. This one came from Eban way back when. Fisher's guide shows pics of all three & states that Seilheimer closed it's doors in 1970.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of a long model with nonmagnetic pommel.

Wüsthof is a name well known to edged weapon enthusiasts. Even non collectors are familiar with Ed. Wüsthof Dreizackwerk's trident logo marked carving knives sold in department stores. Somewhat lesser known is Carl Wüsthof Gladiatorwerk. While Carl Wüsthof marked SA daggers are somewhat common, other type blades are not so much with Wüsthof being credited as also producing Heer daggers & HJ knives. I previously had a HJ honor bayonet with stag grips, etched pommel & SS logo on the blade by Wüsthof, also marked "Gladiator".

This example came to me from Eban & was one of my first fire bayonets. Even though I was unable to afford many of the expensive daggers, I loved that I was still able to obtain something nice that was wartime produced with these marks & this one was no exception. according to Fisher's guide, old Carl's company was still in operation as late as 2002.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of a minty short model with narrow blood groove & magnetic pommel.

Last one for the night, a scarce distributor marked example by Peter Wolter Söhne Eschweiler. While the bayonet is not maker marked, the hilt configuration looks to be a Höller or Lauterjung product. This is another one of those distributors that I've only observed on fire bayonets. Fisher's also only attributes Wolter's mark only to fire bayonets. This nice piece was another product of Eban back in the day.

This mark is on the obverse ricasso of a long model with nonmagnetic pommel.

great topic! here's my newly arrived Zeitler-Wien Feuerwher bayo, it has a weapon number (106). regards.

2

quote:

Originally posted by Billy G.:
Here's a fire bayonet with the scarce mark of Baron. Way back we thought Baron was probably just a small obscure maker or distributor. Fisher's guide lists Baron as a distributor who marked Heer daggers, combat knives & bayonets. It was Terry Kissinger & Denny Gaither who were able to deduce that Baron was actually a distributor mark for Gottfried Weyersberg Söhne KG, Solingen.

There's a thread somewhere back in the bowels of the BCN forum but essentially it boiled down to a Baron mark on one of Denny's bayonets (not this type) that showed a trophy cup with 3 stars. Someone remembered that this same mark with the cup & stars was used on Weyersberg's SA daggers which made the connection. Thanks to our very own Bob Iqbal & Jim Taylor who were kind enough to find this one for me.

This mark is on the obverse ricasso of a long model with nonmagnetic pommel.

Hi Billy,
Sorry to be so long in replying to your Baron comments. I would respectfully suggest that "Baron" is a trademark for Gottfried Weyersberg Söhne rather than a distributor mark? I have no further info to support this supposition; it just seems to be a logical assumption.
Here is a picture of the trademark. Sorry to report it as a KS98 blade rather than one of your "babies".

Denny,

Thanks for chiming in my friend. Now THAT'S the piece I was referring to, thanks too for posting it. No matter that it's a KS98 I've got a soft spot for those as well, maybe too much but I'd kill for a fire bayonet with that mark.

Thinking about it you're probably right that Baron is more likely a trade name for Weyersberg as opposed to a distributor. I mean, how many makers had an exclusive distributor? Not many I surmise.


Nacho,

Thanks for sharing your Zeitler. There really aren't many out there, I've seen just 4 of them in about 10 years of looking. Terry's got a nice minty example with a lengthy inventory type number stamped into the pommel backstrap. I bought a minty long model from Eric Wien but sold it to GD member Remus all the way in Belgium. You've got a nice inventory marked one & here's my short model with wide blood groove.

This piece came from collector/dealer Mike Warren many moons ago. It had an odd haze on it that I thought was just the remains of lost plating but it wasn't. A brisk polish took off most of the haze leaving a nice bright & completely plated hilt, a nice surprise. This picture was taken prior to my polish so you can still see some of the faze on the crossguard.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of a minty short model with nonmagnetic pommel.

Here's a rare distributor mark that I've seen just this once, Karl Volkmer, Dresden A16. I think the only other distributor that I've noticed with the postal code was Horst Wolff. The Saufanger Kid acquired it & shipped it across the pond for me, many thanks mate!

This mark is on the obverse ricasso of a long model with magnetic pommel & dual marked to Eickhorn.

Here's the reverse ricasso with the Eickhorn '35-'41 mark. Fire bayonets that are dual marked with distributor & manufacturer are pretty scarce so it's always nice to find one with a rare mark.

Most of you guys have seen this before, but here is my Zeitler w/inventor number. I came across this one at an SOS show a few years ago.I bought 10 or 11 dress bayonets from one dealer and was so excited that I didn't even see the enventory number until I was showing it to Denny.

quote:

Originally posted by TKissinger:
Most of you guys have seen this before, but here is my Zeitler w/inventor number. I came across this one at an SOS show a few years ago.I bought 10 or 11 dress bayonets from one dealer and was so excited that I didn't even see the enventory number until I was showing it to Denny.

Ah yes, the great bayonet caper of the 2005 SOS!

here's my Alcoso inventory marked long Feuerwehr bayo, thanks for this thread, the is the most instructive on the subject I've seen...regards.

Hey Nacho,

Thanks for posting your Alcoso. A nice early mark for the 3R, I've also seen this mark on Weimar polizei bayonets so I guess it was used through the Weimar period into the 3R zeit. That's a great inventory mark as well, is the scabbard similarly marked? Here's my early Alcoso with the same mark with nice early tan felt blade buffer. This mark is on the reverse ricasso of a short model with magnetic pommel.

While we're on the topic of Alcoso, here's a later variation on a sawback fireman's bayonet. Notice the small differences in the "teardrop" portion of the scales as well. This bayonet was a quick Eban find back in the day.

This mark is on a nicely conditioned short model sawback with magnetic pommel.

The three Alcoso TM's.

Terry/Billy:

Have you ever seen the late AWS Alcoso TM on fire or other KS98 bayos?

John

John,

I've never seen the AWS trademark on a dress bayonet although I'm on the lookout & it's on my short list

We've all seen that cute reclining lion logo of C. Lütters & Cie, Löwenwerk. I remember first seeing it & not knowing which company it was for. Fisher's lists Lütters as having been established in 1840 & still in operation as late as 2002, wow. Talk about staying power. They're attributed as having manufactured Heer daggers, HJ knives & dress bayonets.

This bayonet is a nice early example showing all the quality of that prewar period. As with many smaller manufacturers' fire bayonets, this one shows an Eickhorn pommel & sweet swooping Eick crossguard.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of a short model with narrow blood groove & magnetic pommel.

I've seen 2 variations of the Lütters logo & this one is the lesser seen of the 2. This mark shows the same reclining lion (albeit smaller) but with the Lütters name in an arc over the cat with the location of Solingen beneath. This example is identical to the preceeding one in that it shows signs of early manufacture with Eickhorn parts. I really have found the early Eick produced bayonets are some of the best IMO.

This mark is in the reverse ricasso of a short model with wide blood groove & magnetic pommel.

Here is another Lütters variation that I don't have. This one was on Eban recently but sadly had what I thought to be postwar altered grips It had a pitted & sharpened blade, the seller was looking for $175.

How about a Max Weyersberg

A beauty indeed Terry. I have not seen a Weyersberg TM-marked fire bayonet to date. Seeing it in such a nice mint shape only adds value to it. Thanks for sharing.

JAN

Terry,

That's the mintest Max W. I've seen ever, but then again I've only seen maybe 5 of them total. A beautifully conditioned bayonet, how does he do it? This nark is on the reverse ricasso of a short model with middle width blood groove, somewhere in between the narrow & wide types & magnetic pommel.


Jan,

Stick around long enough, we'll find you one

What is interesting is the S on Solingen. The name is in upper case but the S is larger, a bit strange. On Billys bayonet the bottom of the S aligns with the bottom of the rest of the letters in Solingen. On the one I posted the S in Solingen extends above and below the rest of the letters in Solingen.

OK I'm nitpicking but thats the way I am.

Here's another Weyersberg heard from, this one Paul Weyersberg. This is the PW logo inside the elipse that's seen on DRP bayonets & the occasional KS98. Not a common mark on any bayonet & isn't that what makes it a little more special? Only seen this mark on a fire bayonet twice, Wittmann had the other. He may still have it.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of an early long model with magnetic pommel.

Terry,

Good spot on the Solingen "S". I'm with you, it's all in the minutae.

Thanks for all the comments on my bayonets. I do have some that are nice condition but I also have a few dogs. As I have said before, condition is everything, well some times you have to give a little. I gave alot when I bought this one.

Most unlike you Terry, that bayonet MUST have something special, so tell us!

Here is another dog, Johann Kirch, MAGDEBERG

Terry,

Another beauty, love those dual marked units too. Here's my Johann Kirch, Magdeburg which is dual marked to Eickhorn like yours. Another scarce distributor, Hans Grunwald also operated out of Magdeburg as well. Mine is pretty mint & typical of Eickhorns showing the '35-'41 mark.

This mark is on the obverse ricasso of a long model with nonmagnetic pommel.

Speaking of dogs, I've had this mutt for a long time. It's the mark of JG Merz. It came off Eban & I knew what I was getting when I bid on it. At the time I thought I'd be able to upgrade it at some time but after 5 or 6 years I have yet to see another. Someone had a beater Heer dagger with the same deeply stamped mark but that's the only times I've seen this mark on a blade. Haven't been able to find out anything on this shop either, maybe someday.

This mark is on the obverse ricasso of a late production short model with wide blood groove & nonmagnetic pommel.

Besides the Merz being a super rare mark, this one was also double marked to Puma on the reverse ricasso so I had to have it despite the condition. You can really see the poor blade condition in this shot but that said I love the piece all the same. That is until a better one comes along.

I'm sure many of you can relate when this type of situation comes along, a piece you know you want/need but the condition is less than desired. What to do? Especially when the asking price stays low it's an easy call but not so much when the price goes up. I'm sure the condition of this one kept most people away which was good because I knew it was a diamond in the rough. The very rough.

Some computer problems have contributed to my failure to post any additional logos recently. In my haste to correct things I may have deleted a bunch of my logo shots. I'll work on reshooting the ones I no longer have.

In the interim I thought I'd post a nice sawback that just came in from the cold. Great short sawback blade marked by WKC but what's with the unusual crossguard?

Half a crossguard & now a grip emblem? OK, a so called late period Feuerschutzpolizei bayonet right?

I know what many of you are thinking, postwar added emblem that's inappropriate for a bayonet & a fireman's bayonet sawback blade added to a standard KS98 hilt. I too would think this except that I've heard about these rare pieces for years. George Wheeler showed one in his excellent reference "Seitengewehr". Gary Walker & Ron Weinand pictured one in their terrific book "German Clamshells & other bayonets". I've also seen an odd picture or two on GD & WAF but suffice it to say these bayonets are not often seen.

This piece exhibits the details that have been attributed to this style bayonet, unplated hilt configuration, short sawback blade marked by WKC & a large sword type copper grip emblem pinned to the hilt through the grip plate. I've also read about long models, I believe the one in Walker & Weinand's book attributed to Bob Hritz had a 25 cm blade. Some have been noted to have plain blades & some were unmarked.

It's been said that there is no period reference to this style bayonet. A scary prospect if one pays dearly for any item but there seems to be enough consistency in the pieces I've seen to allay my fears.

I'd love to see pictures of any others out there in members' collections.

Here's a better obverse shot with the original frog that came attached to the scabbard. The frog, interestingly enough, has a patterned texture that resembles a fine patchwork, I tried to get a good view of this in the picture. This is something I've never seen before on the usually seen 3R patent leather frogs.

This frog also has a distinct smell of rubber & I've read of some late war frogs being constructed from radiator hoses & some other such stuff. Is there any truth to this?

Time to get this thread up & running again, picked up some nice pieces recently so I should have plenty of ammo to continue. Among interesting recent pick ups was a nice Linnenbrugger & Ellermann variation logo with similarly marked frog which I'll be posting shortly.

Here's a venerable old Solingen manufacturer whos mark we see on a variety of edged weapons, Clemen & Jung, Waffen- u. Metallwarenfabrik, Solingen. According to Fisher's, the company was established in 1860. From experience here on GD & in my own collecting I know C&J had contracts with Polizei & Customs organizations. C&J's mark is not often seen on dress bayonets of any type & the same is true for fireman's pieces.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of an early production short model bayonet with wide blood groove & magnetic pommel.

I had never seen any variation in the Clemen & Jung logo on fireman's bayonets. Until recently the only mark I had observed was the stylized "Z" inside a shield, identical to a C&J mark I have on several Polizei & Customs bayonets. Then came this piece, courtesy of Dr. John Merling

It's mark includes the same "Z" mark, albeit smaller than the preceeding piece, with the name spelled out in 2 lines. This piece is also of early production & has a noticeably heavy hilt, certainly made of well fitted quality parts. The hilt looks to be of Eickhorn's manufacture which IMO were some of the best made bayonets of the 3R.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of an early production long model bayonet with magnetic pommel.

This Lungstrass was a recent pickup. Pretty sure we posted one earlier, this mark is a wider version of the logo already shown, a hanging lightbulb with shade. This one also looks like the factory stamper was on steroids, very heavily stamped indeed. Fisher's shows Peter Lungstrass, Stahlwarenfabrik, Solingen-Ohligs as having been established in 1900 & I can say from experience that this mark is not often seen on anything. Fisher lists Lungstrass's products as SA/NSKK daggers as well as HJ knives. We also know they made at least a few dress bayonets too.

This piece is clearly not mint & shows it's age. That said, it's an early production piece with that venerable Eickhorn pommel & wide armed crossguard, I almost felt obligated to bring it back to the land of the living. Actually the age is mostly restricted to the pommel which has some darkening, the blade buffer did it's job as this blade is still pretty shiny & free of rust & pits.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of an early production long model with magnetic pommel.

Billy:

WOW!

John

Recently addition to my collection.Getting bigger
1.Carl Henkel.Short version.Late war, non magnetic hilt.Scabbard still has inventory number, which is unusual.
2. Eickhorn. Common ,but very nice condition, blade is near mint

pic.2

pic.3

pic.4

eick1

eick2

eick3

Billy

I love the Clemen & Jung. What is neat is that the name or the logo is upside down. I have seen Heer bayonets with both the logo and name being orientated the same way. Maybe the logo stamper feel asleep at the factory. I also love the large logo Lungstrass. Nice variations.

Andrei,

Very nice pieces, thanks for posting them. Carl Henkel is tough to find in a short model, I snagged one but it took years. The Eick, while a common maker, is still a super bayonet. I really think Eickhorn made some of the best quality bayonets of the period. Eick products also show a very nicely shaped pommel & wide armed crossguard which is quite distinctive. Differences in fire bayonets can be quite subtle but they are there & Eicks always stick out.

Terry,

Thanks, I love the C&J too. It's an early Eick product & is just nice & tight. I didn't notice the upside down logo until I got it home, although I knew it had both the "Z" & compay name which was different from the one I already had which only showed the shield & "Z".

The Lungstrass is also an early Eick product but sad to say it obviously wasn't stored as well. While there is darkening & some pepper marks, the blade is still in great shape & I didn't overpay for it. I just checked my other Lungstrass, same logo but 1/2 the size & very lightly stamped. I think yours is the same. It's funny but I still get a jolt at finding a new maker or logo.

Here is an example of a C & J with the logo and name in the same orientation

Terry,

Interesting to see that the mark appears in both directions. Considering some are upside down, I would think that maybe the worker who was in charge of stampings might have been known to start his weekends early C&J is definitely a scarce mark to see on dress bayonets.

My brothers Firemans bayonet.

Terry,

Beautifully conditioned example with a nicely toned knot. Is that a Klaas pommel?

Bottom is a Klass. All measurements are the same.

From the angle the numbered example definitely looked Klaasy. Some of the pieces you guys have picked up in recent years have really been in superlative condition, very nice indeed.

Here is a maker we've all seen before, C. Gustav Spitzer KG, Solingen. This was a recent pick up for me & the only reason I can think of that I never picked one up before was I just never got around to it. Spitzer has been attributed with producing daggers for the SA/NSKK, SS, Army, Luftwaffe, RLB, knives for the HJ as well as KS98 bayonets & of course firemans' bayonets. Fisher's guide also attributes Spitzer with producing the SA Feldherrenhalle dagger although I don't know how accurate this is.

Just from observation, I don't believe I've ever seen a Spitzer fireman's bayonet with magnetic pommel. This mark, the one Spitzer is probably most known for, shows a prancing lion with flickering tongue surrounded by the firm's name & location. This mark appears on the reverse ricasso of a long model bayonet with nonmagnetic pommel.

Here is the only other Spitzer mark I've observed on a fireman's bayonet, it's a variation of the earlier mark sans company name but still showing the prancing lion & company location, Solingen. This was my first Spitzer bayonet & I dug it because of the variation itself, it came from Eban many moons ago.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of a short model bayonet with wide blood groove & nonmagnetic pommel.

Here's a very recent addition & one I'm fairly proud of, a fireman's bayonet produced by the firm of Emil Gierling, Stahlwarenfabrik, Solingen. Fisher's lists the firm as having been established in 1934 & besides producing SA daggers & HJ knives, Gierling also produced poultry shears, nail clippers & hair clippers.

The Gierling mark is quite scarce on any edged weapon so I was astounded to see it on a this bayonet. It came to me from fellow collector Remus in Belgium & I thank him for giving me the chance of adding it to my collection. It arrived after 6 weeks of being lost in Customs too, funny but I had just about given up hope that it would ever be located. I'm so glad it did. The mark almost looks like a lab beaker but that beaker has eyes, feet & a beak so I guess it's a throwback to Gierling producing poultry shears. The firm's initials "EG" are centered on the chicken's chest & the firm's name & location, albeit lightly stamped, are below.

This mark appears on the reverse ricasso of a long model bayonet with magnetic pommel.

Simply beautiful Billy! The Emil Gierling TM looks great. What is depicted in it? I can't really make out the details.

Since you have posted a Spitzer, here's a close-up of my TM and the bayonet itself. It's a short version bayo in pretty nice condition. What I have noticed is that the TM does indeed differ a bit in the details. Look for example at the back feet of the lion. They are not as aligned as those on your piece.





JAN

My J.H.W.-E. and W.K.C. (camera work slowly getting clearer)

W.k.c.

wkc

I may have broken the internet!!!

w.k.c. fingers crossed

Nice Emil Gierling TM. Gierling made nail clippers and poultry scissors. So the TM is a chicken. Well a very strange chicken.

My latest purchase. unknown maker long version.it has a magnetic hilt so probably an early one.
I think Billy G might Appreciate this one

m.m

Note the 2 different colours on the frog most unusual i dont recall seeing this before.

This is one of the threads I check out all the time and I'd hoped I could add to it at some time, my latest acquisition a short sawback by WKC, FW Berlin stamped into the rear, magnetic hilt.

Gary

2

3

Seany,

A very nicely conditioned example of a bayonet with a yet unknown mark. Due to the relative scarcity of the L&WM mark & mixture of hilts, I'd think it was a distributor but as we know with this wonderful hobby, "anything's possible".

Gary,

As usual, you never fail to astound. This WKC has all the bells & whistles someone would look for, were they interested in just one fire bayonet. We've seen WKC sawbacks previously but this one is just a bit more special than all the others. Looks to be very early production, by virtue of the wide bakelite pattern & the overall appearance. In most cases, the later pieces don't hold up nearly as well although occasionally a few do.

Sawbacks always attract attention & you can see this in the asking price which hasn't risen a lot in the last 10 years but has usually generally been 4 to 5 times the price of a nicely conditioned but plain bladed example.

This is the first unit marked sawback I've ever seen, it's also the first short model unit FW Berlin marked example I've seen & also the first one I've seen that did not have an inventory number. The FW Berlin font conforms to nearly all period originals of that department I've seen (maybe 15 overall). One departure from this font was the Alcoso marked FW Berlin example I found in Germany a few years ago. It was super early which could explain the difference, the others that did not match all had some questions about the stampings. All told, a very nice & desirable bayonet IMHO. Well done my friend.

My recent purchase.L.Zeitler, Wien .Nonmagnetic hilt , long blade.

hilt view

Andrei,

A subtle variation from the Zeitler mark I have since yours has the first name initial "L". Zeitler examples are not often seen in any condition & this is certainly a nicely conditioned piece. Had I seen the initial, I may have bumped the price up some

Thanks Billy,
I was very happy to have such a good deal,it is much nicer in person. Very good addition to my collection.

Billy

There are way to many bayonet collectors out there. What are we to do. Nobody wanted them when I started collecting.

Carl Grah, Solingen-Ohligs. Short blade, nonmagnetic hilt.

close view

Andrei,

A rare mark on any bayonet, particularly on a fire bayonet. The one I have is also a short model & very well made, I suspect by the looks of it yours is too.

By any chance, is this the short model that had some sort of item in the center of the obverse grip plate?

Billy,
yes, it has hole filled with glue, somebody try to make "improvement" adding grip insignia. It came from eban, but for this rare maker I will keep it in my collection, before nice replacement shows up. Blade is about Ex.+++++++

Despite the grip problem, I think you got an excellent deal on a rare maker marked piece, well done.

What seems like a new distributor for fire bayonets, Ferd. Erdt Kaufbeuren. Not in my 5th edition of Fisher's so I can't say anything about the particular distributor although I've seen this one once or twice on a KS98. Never on a faschinenmesser.

Reverse ricasso is marked with the Eickhorn '35-'41 mark. The shame of it is some tool sharpened the heck out of it, probably to cut tomatoes or some such nonsense.

Very nice Billy! Ferdinand Erdt isn't an often seen distributor. Certainly the first faschinenmesser I've seen. They must have had a close relationship with Eickhorn, as I've not seen another manufacturer with the Erdt logo.
Here is the only one I have - '35-'41 Eick with the most popular 3219 etch. Unfortunately, mine has been lightly sharpened too. Maybe we can start a rumor that the Erdt firm provided a rare, extra-cost option of a sharpened blade?? Sort of like the Black Widow Luger approach to marketing!

Hey Denny,

A great piece! Doesn't matter the etch is somewhat common, still a thing of beauty to most collectors. By the way, what possesses some people to sharpen a ceremonial weapon? I'll never figure it out myself.

Mine has a real beater blade, but that's the mark of an addict. I see it, I identify the damage (even though the seller didn't mention it) & I buy it anyway. German Daggers Anonymous anyone?

He Guys, here's another bajonet...the best there is i think..

An interesting piece! I think detailed closeups are needed before anyone will be able to comment.

Peter,

Now we're talking. An intreresting piece indeed, looks like it's to an Oberbrandmeister from the City of Solingen's Volunteer Fire Department. Many thanks for posting it.

I was actually going to start a different thread relating to etched fire bayonets specifically & may still do that. Can you post some better pictures of the pommel details & inscription? What is the maker/distributor mark on the ricasso?

Tha'ts a nice looking bayonet, my guess on the maker would be Paul Weyersberg??.

Gary

Gary,

Weyersberg may in fact have made the hilt but the obverse ricasso mark is definitely not for PW. It's a 2 line affair, I'm thinking a distributor like Carl Henkel.

This bajonet whas a gift from the Solingen community
to W. Evertz, the commander of the Solingen firebrigade for his 50 th birthday.
The maker is Horster, the blade is blued and gilted
fantastic piece.

Another picture..

The Pommel

Scabbard

the blade

ok the last one guys! but something different..

Close up

Seriously cool pieces Peter!

wow! very cool, I wish I knew more about and was able to handle and look at some of the higher end bayos.


and thanks
steve.

Peter:

That is one cool blued Eickhorn etch... love it.

That fire etch is also one amazing item. It has to be a one of a kind. Do you have any history on it?

Congrats,

John

WOW! Typical Horster work on a gift piece and engraving of Horster quality. A beauty.

"Such stuff as dreams are made on.". A thing of beauty to be sure.

Holy crap! Man that's nice! Thanks for showing it!

I am lost for words. It is Glorious.
Sincerely,
HUBERTUS

Thanks Guy's for all the kind reactions!

..ditto to all comments above.

i dont like it ! only because i dont have it seriously nice piece , i get over excited by unit marked examples , this though is off the chart

Few recent finds , summer is hot and slow, but still able to find something interesting.
1.Ernst Knecht & Co., Solingen-Wüstenhof/Wuppertal
2.Clemen & Jung Co., Solingen
3.Peter Den Krebs , Solingen

Andrei

Nice Ernst Knecht & Co., one of many that I don't have. My summers are taken up with my shooting sports. Bayonet collecting is my winter sport.

Andrei,

Nice pickups all. Can we see a shot of the Krebs obverse & pommel? Looks like an Eickhorn product which is always a nice thing to see.

Krebs hilt. Seems like it's an Eickhorn product with wide crossguard.
Terry,
Good luck with sharp shooting. Hope will see you soon on bayonet field.
Billy,
is Krebs mark scarce on firemen bayonets? Why they used Eick hilts?

1

Another recent find. ALCOSO sawback with knot. Crossguard stamped 57. Nonmagnetic hilt.Few days ago I saw identical one with #22 on crossgard, same Alcoso with nonmagnetic hilt. http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthread.php?t=448702.

Looks like Billy has some competition, Nice bayonets Andrei

Andrei,

Dan Pet. Krebs is scarce on a fire bayonet, Carl Krebs is rare IMHO. I have owned 3 Dan Pet. Krebs, none have had the Eick crossguards but it doesn't surprise me that yours has one. Eick was a mass producer of these parts, especially to the smaller cottage manufacturers. Not to say that Krebs was a small manufacturer in & of themselves, just that with respect to dress bayonets & specifically fire bayonets, they most certainly were.

One trait I've found to be consistent with nearly every Dan Pet. Krebs fire bayonet I've observed was the very poor plating on the hilt. For some reason, this seems to manifest itself to the degree that some pommels don't look to have any plating left at all. VERY tough to find a presentable one worthy of keeping, despite the overall scarcity of the mark.

Krebs also used a variation of this mark, just the lobster inside the shape with no name or location. This mark is a little harder to find than the standard variation but with the same plating issues Krebs is infamous for.

Terry,

Andrei is indeed competition but a worthy adversary. He's got a few from my collection in his very nice collection already.

Billy,
Thanks for the answer and good words. IMHO collect dress & firemen bayonets is very interesting, every day can bring you something new. Plus less fakes and postwar "modifications" on this field.
Terry,
more competitions, better prices in the future and more historical knowledge about Solingen edge weapons.

Here is another one. WKC long blade and narrow groove. Early magnetic hilt. TM looks funny, seems like the TM die was warn out....?

Andrei,

Either a partially worn die or an incomplete strike by the person applying the logo. Maybe a little of both?

beer involved.....?

Haha.. with WKC, I seem to see a lot of these poor strikes (I have one myself). That however, does not distract from the beauty of the piece and the often exquisite plating quality of these. Beautiful.

JAN

Jan,
100% agree with you. WKC had real plating quality, same Eick. Also like the WKC long blades with narrow fuller.This is my first one, looks awesome.

Here is another one. Rudolf Buchel,long blade, magnetic hilt

Very nice Buchel. I've noticed a lot of scarce & rare marks coming on the market as of late. And Andrei seems to be nailing most of them! On the subject of strikes, I had several Buchels with poor strikes before I found one with a nice, completly struck like this one.

I wanted to bring this topic to the top, lest it find the same fate as the last fire bayonet thread. I have a bunch more trademarks to add & just haven't had the opportunity to snap good photographs of them. Some nice variations too so stay tuned.

Looking forward to that billy , I've been focused on combats over the last year or so but the fires are definately calling me back , i just love em!
Regards,
Will

I got a good laugh a couple weeks ago while at a gun show. I saw a Fireman bayonet in a case and asked the dealer if it had a TM. He informed me that Fireman blades were non marked. When I told him I had a few that had TMs he as much said I didn't know what I was talking about. Wish I had taken my TM list with me. Just had to walk away. Hey only 4 months till the SOS show.

Terry,
My guess would be the Ft. Wayne survival gear/beef jerky aka gun show at the Memorial Coliseum. Even though it's close, I stopped making the trip several years ago.
Where were you yesterday? We missed you at the Nappanee show. A magnificent 1936 Krieghoff Luger walked in the door!
See ya at the SOS.

Denny:
I haven't been to that one in over 20 years but since beef jerky is still a principal stapel of the show I guess I haven't missed much and not much has changed. It's too bad really is this is an excellent location for a show.
Jim

Denny,
Did you score that Krieghoff?

A gentleman came into the shop last week and saw a few things in my display case. He mentioned that he had just acquired a Luger on trade. I asked him to describe it and all he came up with was 1943. The date I knew was not a BYF, a '42, nor a banner. Don't want to jinx this, I really want to see it next week. It was about this time last year a '39 S/42 police came in the door. Lightning may strike twice Both guys had no intention of selling but four months later I ended up with the police Luger.

Sorry Billy for taking over your TM thread. I wish I had a new FW with an odd trademark to add. But I think you guys have found all of them

Regards,
Steve

Steve,

No trouble at all, I love all this stuff & that includes Lugers. I'm interested too if Denny got the Krieghoff! That Polizei Luger of yours is a keeper, a real prize indeed. Don't ever let that one go!


Terry,

That's a great story, fire bayonets weren't marked. I read something similar on Eban. Someone was selling an unmarked unit & stated in his narrative they rarely, if ever, were marked. What kind of glue is that guy huffin'?

Steve & Billy,
My buddy got the Krieghoff Luger! He is the proud owner of a 99% gun with matching clip, 1 extra non-matching clip and a great holster. We took it out to the parking lot so I could get a couple of poor shots of it. I also heard of a 1943 Krieghoff that came out of the woodwork recently in the same neighborhood. Go figure!
Here are a couple pictures of the 1936. Billy, apologies for this in your thread. If anyone wants more info on the Luger, please email me dengaiATnetzero.net. It's definately not for sale....
Let's get back to Fire Bayonets on this thread.

Denny

It was at the Indy show. Can't wait till the SOS.

Denny,

That's one sweet Luger. I have a particular liking for Krieghoffs & this one is no exception, wow. I'm glad someone scooped it up.

As promised, here's the first of a number of logos I never had time to add previously. We've all seen the Dan Pet. Krebs lobster, usually on an SS sword or occasionally on a Heer or Luft dagger. They're rarely seen on a fireman's bayonet. Unlike the usually seen Krebs lobster logo though, this one has the logo without company name or location. It's scarcer than it's lettered counterpart. As you can see, the logo is nicely centered & both evenly & deeply struck. Something we don't usually see, often the stampings are incomplete or light in general.

Another interesting observation I've noticed about Dan Pet. Krebs fireman's bayonets, nearly all have hilts with a dull, matte finish showing little to no plating remaining. I've also observed this on their standard KS98 bayonets although with lesser consistency. It is rare indeed to find a Krebs with decent plating & this is one of them. Purchased right here on GD (thanks Chris), it was the first one I had seen in years. A week later, another popped up on Eban, go figure.

This logo is on the reverse ricasso of a minty long model bayonet with nonmagnetic pommel.

Terry,

And a beautiful scarce etch to go along with that nice plating. Very nice piece, I do love that unembellished motto.

Here's a scarcely seen logo, the mark of Carl Grah, Solingen-Ohligs. Grah's logo was that of an airplane centered in an oval eith the company's name & location around the inner border. This mark is nice in that it's centered well on the blade & as well it's both deeply stamped & evenly placed. I bought this one maybe 5 or 6 years ago & at that time, it was the only example I had seen of this logo on a fireman's bayonet. Since then I've seen 2 others so they're out there although not too common. I've seen this logo on the occasional SA dagger & I believe (from memory) an HJ knife or two plus a few KS98 bayonets.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of a short model bayonet with nonmagnetic hilt.

Here is a beautiful example of a scarce mark to find, the distributor Aug. Luneberg, Kiel. Kriegsmarine collectors will immediately recognize the mark as one occasionally seen on KM blades but this is an exceedingly rare mark to find on a bayonet, certainly on a fireman's bayonet.

Occasionally we find a fireman's bayonet marked by a particular distributor that also has it's manufacturer's logo on the blade. These double marked examples are always in demand with maker mark nuts. Sadly this example is not so marked although it's always interesting to see if the maker can be discerned by the hilt configuration.

As luck would have it, this one was an early production piece by Eickhorn showing a beautiful sloping crossguard & telltale Eickhorn pommel. These early Eickhorn pieces almost always show excellent quality & construction. I sometimes wonder if this bayonet had a marine connection or it was that Luneburg merely sold it.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of an minty short model bayonet with magnetic pommel.

Wow! A very rare distributor mark and certainly the first I've ever seen on a FW bayonet. Is this a recent addition, Billy?
Here is mine, only on a KS98.

Denny,

Nice one, thanks for posting it. Is yours a standard KS98 or is there anything distincive besides the mark? Seems yours has Kiel & sadly mine doesn't. This one is not a recent addition at all, I've had it for 4 or 5 years now. I believe it was posted on the "old" fire bayonet thread & I recently went through this thread to see which pieces I hadn't yet posted. Surpringly there were a bunch & I'm trying to add them as time allows including my favorite stash of L&E pieces. Don't know what I was waiting for but the time to post them is now.

Billy,
Posting here for two reasons. 1st, to bring your superb thread back to the top. 2nd, to let you know that I took the liberty of posting one of your pictures here - http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?205653-Info-needed-on-quot-bringback-quot-bayonet
If you would like me to remove it, just say the word and it shall be so!
Thanks....

hey I am new here and i have just purchased a carl henkel bielefeld long dagger off ebay. now that i have it . it seems like a reproduction because of its awsome state it is in and in fact that the blade is not sharp, it has a flat edge. i am not sure if they bade them dull. some of the pictures on here look like the same thing. is there a way to tell if this is original as I see no date?

thanks
-Jake

Hi Jake,

you will sometimes find pieces in excellent condition, no worries there. The blades were not sharpened, so you are indeed correct to be seeing a dull edge. Pieces that were sharpened have a lower collector-value due to the fact that they have been played around with, either at the time or most likely, post-war. The best way for us to judge would be for you to post a picture or a link to one. There are, mind you, very few fakes of FW bayonets around.

JAN D:

ok thanks ill try to upload some today.

[img]http://img863.imageshack.us/i/dscn0730.jpg/[/img] [img]http://img62.imageshack.us/i/dscn0731m.jpg/[/img] [img]http://img198.imageshack.us/i/dscn0732x.jpg/[/img] [img]http://img844.imageshack.us/i/dscn0733b.jpg/[/img] [img]http://img820.imageshack.us/i/dscn0734f.jpg/[/img] [img]http://img716.imageshack.us/i/dscn0735wl.jpg/[/img] /i/dscn0730.jpg/[/img]

hope these pics look good as my cameras not the best. i think it is in really good conditions. just a little bluring on the crome blade but i think i can polish it out no problem.

how do you make a atached picture so it will apear on the post?

Nice example of a fairly scarce distributor. I remember seeing this piece when it was still active & mulled over bidding myself. You did well considering you got a full rig with nice looking knot too. Henkel had two marks that I've observed, this one which is the more common of the two & one where the name is spelled Karl Henkel & the name is in an arc. There should be pics posted earlier in this thread.

One question, is the reverse of the frog marked? I've come across several examples of Carl Henkel marked frogs. These are obviously pretty rare & a nice accouterment if you can match them to a similarly conditioned bayonet.

yes the back of the frog is marked the same as the earler posts.

im curious why they were made dull? is there a reson why they were not sharpend?

Then that's a rare frog indeed, very nice. These bayonets were made dull because they're function was purely as a dress sidearm. They were worn to parades & for ceremonial purposes only & not "used" in the context of a weapon. That said, you could do a lot of damage to someone with a sawback fire bayonet.

thats cool. what would you say my bayonet is valued at?

That depends on who's buying it. You got it on an auction site where the price is set by the public's desire for the item. But the sale price could be affected by several things including how well or poorly the seller listed it. In this case I would say the price was kept down by the fact the seller neglected to mention the frog was distributor marked which would have increased the price some IMHO. I think a dress bayonet collector, given all the facts & condition of this piece, would easily pay $300, maybe more. The knots alone when well conditioned can bring $75 to $100.

nice to know that I can make money on it :P , thx

does anyone know some good online ww2 militaria stores?

JC contribution

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=244629&#Post244629

This one was a long time coming. It came to me 6 months ago, maybe longer. Been too busy over the last months to do much more than acquire some nice pieces & I've neglected the thread. But they're getting photographed as time allows & I hope to post many more soon.

I had never seen a fire bayonet by Christianswerk although I always suspected they made them. Then several years ago, Steve C. scored a nice Pioneer hilt by Christians & it reaffirmed my steadfast desire to find a fire example. After long last here it is. Minty in all aspects, the bonus is it has an Eickhorn hilt like many small cottage bayonet makers.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of a long model bayonet with magnetic pommel.

Beauty, Billy.

That is a maker mark that is missing from my Luft2 collection.

John

John,

I'm sure there aren't too many that you're missing. If ever I'm lucky enough to acquire one, you can rest assured it'll find it's way to Calgary.

Billy,

Thanks for the acknoweledgement on the Christians. Indeed it is a very hard TM to find. My Pioneer also has the magnetic hilt. I think they got in the game early on these. but in my opinion, they may have droppped out of the race from competition. Maybe that's why I see so few. So many other firms started to emerge, from more money with advertising, and the smaller ones kind of dropped off.

I won't bore the forum with my thoughts, but it does give me the chance to post two pics. These have already been posted before because they were in a file that had already been re-sized. And my apology's to Billy for putting a boring old Heer bayo in his FW thread.

REgards, Steve.

Stevie,

Nothing boring about that baby, nothing at all

Just tooling around, trying to get a good shot of one of my L&Es. Now that's some logo.

Billy and Steven:

Your photography is great, but the items are magnificent!

I guess that having a swas in the TM makes it worth more, B?

John

Many thanks John,

The only edged weapon logo that I know of that has such an item. I personally like it because it's got a Feuerwehrhelm incorporated in the logo. We know of at least one other maker/distributor with a FW helm logo, alas the name is still unknown to us.

Billy / terry , just pulled out my J.H.W.E. , distribution mark? are we still in the dark on this mark?

Will,

We're still in the dark about that one. From the relatively few examples I've observed & the simple mark of just initials, I'd speculate it's an unknown distributor.

Billy ,Would a distributor mark a frog also ? , in trying to research this mark online i have come accross 2 frogs stamped the same!
regards
will.

Although not common to see, distributor marked frogs aren't uncommon enough to be called rare. Here is a L&E example.

Will,

I would be inclined to agree with Denny in that distributor marked frogs are more appropriately deemed "scarce" rather than "rare" but they are pretty tough to find. Most patent leather frogs you'll come across will be completely unmarked.

I have 3 marked frogs by Linnenbrügger & Ellermann, Bielefeld & 1 by Carl Henkel, Bielefeld (http://www.carl-henkel.de/) but that's it in about 85 patent leather frogs that I have. It's interesting that the marks of both those distributors have only been observed fire bayonets although I'd love to hear if any of you have seen these marks on standard KS98 dress pieces. I believe Terry has a distributor marked & frog by William Günther, Dresden however this is on a KS98.

Nice rig Denny! My L&E with name only is also a Pack bayonet with brass offset rivets

Almost forgot, I have also seen frogs marked Carl Busse, Mainz which is another distributor I've only observed on fire bayonets,but,... those frogs were for DRK hewers & not dress bayonets.

Billy/Denny , i'll try and get that frog pic clear enough , bear with me

Hello,

Got this one last week.Asked the seller for pics,and it looked good.When I got it home,I was surprised when it looked even better.The blade is in very nice condition,and the point is needlesharp.The Horst Wolff logo is on the reverse side of the blade.There is one bad thing;the knot misses a piece of strap.I have another knot,but I think I will leave this one as it is.

1

2

Hi Jeremy thats one very nice fire bayo well done

Lutters

Jeremy,

Great full rig by Horst Wolff. Have you noticed even once common makers & distributors aren't seen around so much anymore? If you do see them, some are asking silly prices. Especially on well conditioned knots & full rigs. Nice toning & tarnish on that one.


Fitzer,

That Lütters didn't come from Lakeside Trader, did it? Wherever it did come from, it's a beauty.

Thanks Billy,

I bought it from Brian Maederer a while back. I've seen dress bayos with this mark but not on another Fire bayo. I'm sure you must have one...:)

Cheers,
Fitzer

Fitz,

I asked because Paul Hogle & I had a conversation about just such a piece a week ago. You're right, I do have a Lütters like the one you show. It's the more common of the 2 Lütters marks I've observed on fire bayonets. My problem is I'm so behind in my posting of logos, there's at least 15, maybe 20 I still have to post. Soon I hope.

Thank you Seany and Billy.

Fitzer,nice piece!

Billy,
On page 35,you show a L&E marked piece.Am I seeing this wrong,or is that logo upside down in comparisation with mine?I can't see if it's the scabbard,or the leather washer above
Ever seen,or own a short version of the L&E?

Hi Jeremy,

I'm not sure what page 35 you're referring to, can you post a link? I do know that of the 6 or 8 L&E bayonets I've owned, their logo is sometimes inverted. Their logo can also appear on both the obverse & reverse ricassos. Not sure if there was any rhyme or reason for this except that of the individual who was stamping the blades.

Hi Billy,

I was referring to page 35 of this thread.Nice to know the logos can be at diffirent places,makes it more fun to find them.

Let's bring this thread back to the top.. it's too good to lose.

John

Shucks John, I can't say I disagree. Been too long since I added something to this thread too. There's maybe 20 more to add too, just too much of a lazya$$ sometimes.

Time for a brief update. Sometimes things fall into your lap unexpectedly & that's always a treat. Sometimes things were in your lap tp begin with & you never even knew it, such is the case here.

Last night I'm sitting on the couch in a moment of relative solitude, a rarity unto itself. While watching a movie I decided to fiddle around with a bayonet or two. this one was an etched Polizei bayonet I've had a year or two now. It also had a Polizei NCO knot & a black patent leather frog that I attached to it when I got it just to dress it up a bit.

One of the nice features of this frog was that it's leather & stitching are heavy duty. There's also a metal strip in the center of it to give it some added strength & straightness. Here's a shot of the frog.

I don't know why but I flipped it over & took notice to something I hadn't seen previously. Can you see what I'm talking about? Here's a reverse shot.

It ain't easy to see but it must have just been the way the light hit the back of the frog, there I notice a scarcely seen distributor's mark, Peter Wolter Sohne, Echsweiler. I should preface this by saying scarcely seen on a fireman's bayonet. On a frog, never before this had I seen such a mark.

It's lightly done but in the same font as on the blades. I can only imagine how many such marks I may have come across only to miss them. The beauty of it was I got a nice, rare addition to my collection & it didn't cost me a dime.

This is the best shot I got of the mark out of 10 shots. Now I've got to go digging to find one of the bayonets to match it up with. So far I've seen 3 distributors names on frogs, L&E, Carl Henkel & now Peter Wolter.

I finally got the third Linnenbrugger TM. I had been looking for years for the small one on the left, but could never find one in good condition at a good price. Good things do come to those who have patience.

Billy

Is your Linnenbrugger TM's facing the same as these.

Terry,

The 3 L&E examples I have are all as yours are, identical in fact. My example with the larger 15mm logo (your center piece) is dual marked to Eickhorn ('35-'41) on the reverse. My name only mark is an unmarked Pack with brass offset rivets. My 10mm logo is unmarked by maker but likely a Horster product. Two of the three have L&E frogs with them too, as they came from vets.

Didn't know you were looking for a 10mm example. I've sold some nice ones over the years that I picked up as extras. Guess I should have asked

Billy

I found this one on eban.

My middle one is also Eickhorn marked the other two not. I only have one frog it is also Llinnenbugger marked. Never seen such a thin leather buffer, looks original.

And, here's mine ... does this one look familiar, Billy?

Eickhorn mark on one side and L+E on the other, with an L+E marked frog.

John

I do John, still tryin' to remember why I sold it.

Hi! please do anybody know this mark? I've searched the net and find that rudolf Schmidt was a known razor blades maker from the 20's, did anybody have seen this mark on any other dagger/bayo? best regards

There is a diiferent version of this trademark shown in Fisher along with the statemetn that Schmidt made SAs and HJ knives.

John

In my opinion this TM is very hard to find. I have found that edged blade makers sometimes used an altered TM on there dress bayonets. Below is one that I own on a short blade Heer bayonet.

thanks to both, so is a rare maker? t will be very interesting to see the other mark for daggers, what the logo was; an indian? best regards

This figure is the father of the Pirelli tire guy!

I think you are confusing your tires.
He is known as "Michelin Man":-0)
Seiler

Yeah, one of those guys...

Rumor has it that Michelin Man is the illegitimate child of the Pirelli guy.

I think it's supposed to be a kid's ragdoll or something like that. Very nice logo Nacho!

Good Sir William,

Just wanted to personally thank you for this fabulous thread. You and the boys have put together something of value for all of us to enjoy, study and marvel at, whether we're bayonet collectors or enjoy collecting something entirely different as our main hobby interests.

Billy, not only do I consider you to be a long-time, trusted friend, my hat's off to you as one of the sharpest minds in edged weapon collecting as well as several other aspects of German miltary memorabilia. This thread backs up that statement in trump and stands as testimony to the fact.

I spent last night and this morning reading page one to thirty-nine, and can't begin to tell all of you what a fine job you did here. I was literally spellbound and couldn't believe some of the wonderful visual specimens you gents took the time to post - Billy, Denny G, Tom K, John Z, Will J, Andrei, Peter B, Seany and all the rest, many thanks to all of you gentlemen for this outstanding service and reference.

I sincerely wish all of you the very best in collecting!

Bill Warda

Gentlemen,

I'd like to share this pair of WKC Feuerwehr sawback bayos with you for some comments and opinions. One is a short model marked with a Weimar style logo, a knight's head sans lettering. This example has all-steel, magnetic fittings, except for the grip rivets. The second is a long model bearing the later 3R knight's head, having the manufacturer's initials below, WKC. Only the blade and grip rivets are magnetic on this example.

There are slight differences between these two patterns. The first variation being the grip plates and fastening rivets. The short version has matte-color plates that are patterned with elongated diamond shapes and larger, domed, alloy rivets. The long design has glossy, black synthetic plates with a smaller diamond motif and also smaller, steel, dome-head rivets.

The most noticeable variance between the patterns is the configuration of the spine. The saw edges are completely different, like night and day. The short blade has a more pronounced angular tooth pattern, the type we normally expect to see on a sawback blade, sharp and close to 1/8 of an inch deep.

The longer, later pattern has a less conspicuous arrangement having no sharp points to the teeth. There's almost a rounded, curved finish to the slope behind the points. The depth of the saw configuration is much more shallow than it's short counterpart, approximately half, or 1/16 of an inch high. The entire arrangement is uniform, consistently plated and factory-finished in this manner, nothing amateur to indicate a later, post-production grinding. This anomaly is very clearly and easily seen in the photos.

Does anyone have a good explanation for this or have a similar example? I have a few sawback bayonets in my collection but have never seen one like this before. Any comments and ideas are very welcomed. Glad to be able to contribute something to this fine outstanding thread.

Thanks and best regards!

Bill

2/3

3/3

Willi,

What an excellent comparison of different period production sawbacks by WKC. The pair really make a sweet display when shown together, I think you did well with them. Finding a nicely conditioned sawback is not as easy as it once was but getting suitable accouterments can be both exasperating & expensive.

The early short model is really something, I love these early period production pieces. They really have a lot of weight to them & are almost always very solidly made. I've found despite their age, they usually hold up very well even with some postwar abuse. WKC almost always used the same hilt type that was used (made by?) Holler & Holler produced examples. I've rarely found solid, magnetic examples of this type hilt so I think you have something special here.

The early maker WKC maker mark is also really nice, I often try to surmise when blades like this were made & again when they were paired with a hilt. I have a very early Eickhorn short sawback with the single oval mark which obviously predates the 3R.i wonder how long it sat on an Eickhorn shelf only to be mated with a hilt & sold to some late Weimar/early 3R Feuerwehrmann.

The long model is also something wonderful. Being a later produced item, it appears to exhibit the elements I'm more used to seeing with WKC, plated, lighter hilt & the later Bakelite pattern. The sawteeth pattern is indeed interesting, as you noted the teeth seem quite a bit shorter than the early short model next to it. Initially I thought maybe this was a sign that it was "made" into a sawback postwar but I don't think that anymore. I also thought maybe someone ground it down (why ?) but again, it doesn't appear to be the case. It may simply be the later WKC sawback pattern. Sadly I don't have such an example to compare it to but I'll check with a friend who has quite a lot of sawbacks. He may be able to confirm my theory. Upon close inspection, the pattern looks too good to be anything but factory.

Some WKC sawbacks also had an interesting feature. The swedge feature is something usually seen only on some short model Feuerwehr bayonet blades. I've noticed that some WKC long model sawbacks also incorporated a swedge feature. S far, they are the only manufacturer I've observed to do so.

Thanks for sharing your beautiful new additions Willi.

Bill,

Billy is the expert on these FW bayonets and has given a great overview of yours. I will also note that the short model has the rounded top frog stud that I have come to associate with some WKC Extra-Seitengewehre. The long model scabbard has the more often seen flat top frog stud. WKC must have used two different scabbard part suppliers or had two different dies for these frog studs. At any rate, I wanted to point out that difference as well.

I'm always going back to this thread, glad now it has been pinned up there at the top, means I don't have to go searching for it when it drops down a bit.
Bill they are a couple of exquisite sawbacks, beautifully photographed as well.
Thanks to all who have contributed to this great thread.

Gary

Billy, George and Gary,

Your observations, detailed info and kind words are very much appreciated, thank you.

It's always a special treat to hear someone who's very familiar with a given subject point out facts and nuances that I would have simply overlooked. That's what makes these forums such an excellent place to ask, contribute and learn, from those with much more experience and expertise in areas that we're not too well versed in.

Looking forward to the next postings in this fine thread.

Best regards and good collecting!

W~

Back to the top

I just scored a Luetters Loewen Werk today.

Nice pick up. There are 3 versions of the company's TM on TR dress bayonets. I have one like yours on a short bladed Fireman's bayonet.

I should take a better picture of the makers mark.

Here is a better picture of the maker mark.

Here are the three versions of your TM.

Fresh from Wittmann is this short Eickhorn fire bayonet with a single oval TM!

BillyG showed us the same mark on a short sawback fire bayo way earlier in this thread.

I also show pics of my three short fire bayos (single oval, double oval and 35-41 mark) and my two short sawbacks (double oval and 35-41 mark).

John

John,

A beautiful addition to your Eick collection. I know of only two other single oval fire bayonets. Both are sawbacks & I am lucky enough to own one of them. It looks as pristine as the day it was made, those early Eick pieces really do show their quality these many decades later. Congrats!

A short saw back by TIGER

Barry,

Beautiful looking Tiger sawback, really a great specimen. Does it have a solid, magnetic hilt? If not, the plating looks near perfect.

I've noticed over the years that the plating on Tiger products generally held up poorer than other makers. This is consistent with their hilt shape, this is the type used by Holler. My suspicion is Holler (like Eick & other big makers) made these hilts not only for themselves but for many other manufacturers as well.

Billy; I have checked and the hilt assembly of this sawback TIGER is non-magnetic.

Regards

Great bunch of fireman pieces shown enjoyed them! timothy

I woould like to add my newly arrived long sawback bayonet (by Eickhorn, of course) to this thread.

GDC member Stingray pointed this out to me on fleabay, but the seller wouldn't accept any bids on this from me..seems like he would only sell to continental USA. WTF? So, Stingray came to my rescue and bid on it for me.

It is not in the best shape, but it has the small double oval squirrel TM that I was looking for.

It now makes 4 sawbacks by Eick in my collection, short and long double oval, short and long 35-41 seated squirrel. Now, I only (??) need the single ovals and the over shoulder squirrels.

John

John

I seen that one but thought you had EVERYTHING already. Helps to have friends in the old USA.

John,

A really excellent lineup of sawbacks & marks, thank you for sharing them. I am always impressed with the quality of the early Eickhorn fire bayonets, they hold up so well over time & exude quality when you hold them in hand. I think you still need a pair of single oval sawbacks to complete the set

My first sawback was a double oval short model that I won on Eban like 15 years ago. It had a period modified frog which was very unusual & interesting, I think it's pictured in the early pages of this thread. I still have that bayonet.

Early Eickhorn fire bayonets are far more common than most people know, notice the elongated crossguard present on all 4 of your examples. This feature is prevalent on a lot of early production fire bayonets that bear the maker marks of smaller, cottage industry type firms. The way I figure it, Eickhorn was one of the largest producers of bayonet hilts & likely sold parts to many of these small & often obscure manufacturers.

Ivan's a good man, I'm glad the purchase worked out for you. I would also be happy to help anytime you need someone stateside.

Billy & Terry:

Thanks you for your comments.

I may sound like a have-it-all, but I really don't. As B pointed out, I need to get my hands on the long and short single ovals in sawback. Plus a number of other things missing from the wall in the Great White North.

One of the great things about going to shows and participating in forums, such as this one, is that one gets to meet so many great people and build great relationships. People like you are always ready to help out. I have a number of collector friends in the EU, the UK, Norway, Canada and the USofA who are extremely knowledgeable and very willing to help, to share and to give advice.

You know who you are... thank you all.

John

In the case of the oval Eickhorn TM Fireman's Sawbacks, the long one is actually much harder to find than the short one from my experience.

My Geco marked fire police.

I recently purchased two Linnenbruger Ellermann Fireman bayonets to resell at the SOS. One was the small size logo and the other was the large logo. When I received them I noticed the large oval was on the reverse of the blade while my original was on the obverse of the blade. The logo on the reverse had a frosted background in the L, the plus sign, E, and the line below. and the orientation was different. Well I guess I only have one to sell now.

Neat variation, Terry.

John

Terry,

That's a great variant on the 15mm L&E logo, don't know if I've ever observed it before. Now I've got to check my 15mm to see if mine is frosted or not

I dug my 15mm logo out, it's the same as yours in that it's also dual marked to Eick with the '35-'41 mark. I'm disappointed, no frosting

It's been a while since I've posted anything new, mostly because I've been busy. A few really nice & obscure items have come my way which I hope to be posting as time allows.

This one is en route to me now. I saw it years ago & didn't jump, can't say why but it must be serindipity because it's on it's way to me now. A nice early Anton Wingen logo, one I've never seen before. The best part is it's a sawback.

Great catch, Billy!

John

Great bayo Billy, never seen a Wingen Sawback before.

Gary

Thanks Gary. This was the 1st sawback by Wingen that I've seen & the 1st with this logo. I do know Bill Shea has a long sawback for sale but with the more often seen knight logo.

Billy nice rare TM.

I did have that in my list but had never come across one. I did pick up the one that runs parallel with the blade at the SOS.

I also picked up a E. Pack w/Garantie Solingen on the reverse side of the blade.

Hi Terry,

Wingen fire bayonets are not common at all, the sawback is only my second. The other I have is identical to your knight logo above with the full name, also situated parallel to the blade as you mention.

It's hard but sometimes you remember acquisition stories, my first Wingen came from Jeff Slaker (Colorado on GD). Jeff had bought it directly from a vet who took it from a store that sold such items, it's pretty mint with just a little storage wear. Oh to have been present at such a time.

I have been quite lax in my adding of new logos & items but hope to rememdy that. This is an unusual logo & the first time I've seen it on a fire bayonet. Prior to this, I'd only seen the Puma logo in the early version (cat head & name) & the later version (cat head with diamond).

This example is a short model with swedge blade in minty condition & logo on the reverse ricasso. Its hilt is magnetic & solid, nicely heavy in the hand. This is nice because Puma fire bayonets often have nonmagnetic hilts that don't hold their plating well. I would guess it's early production, prior to the introduction of the cat head logo although I'm just guessing. Definitely a keeper.

Nice, B.

John

Here is mine on a early Heer bayonet,I hadn't seen one on a Fireman's before. Great pickup

hello, my little collection:

Hi Alex,

Sorry I missed your post to this thread, very nice lineup. Adding a sawback always adds interest to the group, it looks like an Eickhorn, right?

Can you show us the logos?

Billy here is my PUMA sawback fire enjoy Paul

Paul,

Sawbacks are always of interest to collectors & seem to have retained much of their value in this soft market.

Puma is a tough one to find as well, looks somewhat early. Is the pommel magnetic?

Great pickup, thanks for sharing it with us!

Billy it's non magnetic is that good or bad thanks Paul

A seldom seen "Geco" Distributor mark .

Paul,

That's a beautiful Puma sawback, it's very hard to find a Puma with that blade. No, it's not a problem to have one with a nonmagnetic pommel. In fact, I've only observed one Puma with a magnetic pommel. That one was super early production with the Puma Werke mark, pictured earlier in this thread.

This is my only sawback ,I'm in the process of putting it right(well as far as I can go realistically) nice to see the tang numbers on a saw , can't say you see that every day ..

Why are my posts coming up blank?

Is there some sort of limit on the length of responses? All my responses come up completely empty & only shorter ones can be posted, once edited.

BillyG , I was looking forward to your opinions

Kober.

Rich,

Kobers are fairly uncommon, very nice piece. I'm curious if the pommel is unit marked by "BSW"? I've owned 4 or 5 of these & while most I've observed are unit marked, not all were.

No other markings on it besides the maker mark.

Hi,
I am in the process of buying this Fire bayonet short pattern sawback with no maker mark and a frog and knot which are separate to the bayonet but think they will go together nicely. All looks good to me but would really appreciate some opinions from the guys on this forum. The frog and knot look particularly nice condition as does the bayonet just a shame it has no maker mark I have tried to compare it to others to see if there any features that stand out for a particular maker and the only thing I came up with was possibly Eickhorn due to the profile of the saw tooth pattern but maybe it's just not possible to tell who made it. Still they're are both going for a very fair price and I thought I would snap the frog and knot up quick because I think it's probably quite difficult to find them in this condition.
These are the only photos I have and they are from the sellers website WW2 German Daggers.
Many thanks in advance, Andy.

More of frog and knot.

Hi Andy,

You're right about your sawback being an Eickhorn. The pommel profile as well as the wide crossguard would be clues as well. This looks to be a heavy, solid pommel example which would mean it is probably early manufacture.

In the early 3R, Eickhorn produced sawback fire bayonets for a lot of the smaller cottage industry makers. They will look identical to your sawback but of course have different marks on their ricassos. The early Eickhorn sawbacks were made really well & tend to stand the test of time well.

Hi Billy, Thanks for your reply and the information you've given it's nice to know that my observations must be getting better, not so long ago all short sawbacks would have looked the same to me but thanks to constantly reading and learning things here I seem to be getting it right. I will study the pommel and crossguard pointers more now. I have an early marked Eickhorn so called pioneer bayonet that is very heavy and beautifully made so see what you mean about their quality of build. Thanks again for your knowledge and observations.
Cheers, Andy.

My go to thread on fire bayonets, over 1.1 million views, rarely can I add anything to it so when I saw this piece this morning I knew I could do this thread justice. I knew it was early for this type of bayonet because of the mark, I've had a very similar mark on late Weimar hunting knives but without the solingen underneath so it corresponds exactly with the date in the etch. Magnetic hilt, very heavy, feels great in the hand, a beautiful etch and a bayonet that I am so pleased to own, we have all seen a few fake etched firemans bayonets but I know there is no doubt on this one.

Gary

Gary that is a stunning piece well done. i've not seen that etch before

Nice, Gary. I love it.

That is the early Horster mark. I have it on a 2nd Luft, but without the Solingen.

John

Gary,

A very unique looking fire bayonet you have there, one I have never seen the likes of previously. That doesn't surprise me as some of these rare items were one-off types as I suspect this one might be. You do have an eye for the unusual and rare!

The unusual thing that jumped out at me was the early date, 1931, prior to the 3R & presumably the use of this model sidearm. But we know those dates aren't always concrete since I've got a single oval maker mark Eickhorn fire bayonet which (anecdotally) was used prior to 1933. I previously owned a fire bayonet with this Horster mark and would agree that it's an early variant mark.

The obverse rivets mimic the ones that were on my plain bladed example, how do the reverse rivets look?

Hi Billy


The rivets look fine to me, theres a small crack to one of the grip plates but thats about all. I've always thought that these were around prior to the 3rd reich period, as you mentioned the single oval Eickhorn mark is testament to that.

Gary

Gary,

Thanks for the extra pic, doesn't look messed with & the obverse rivet heads resemble the one I owned.

The "potted plant" bookends are most interesting, variations of which I've seen on Herder, Grafath and Klaas examples. I know the chart in Wayne's book shows cross-references between the Klaas Company with Herder and Grafath and the Holler Company with Horster and Herder so I'm presuming that's the explanation for the unusual etch.

The font is also interesting, don't think I've seen it before. Have you shown it to Wayne? Would love to hear his off the cuff thoughts on it.

Billy

What is interesting to me is that we can now pretty much confirm that these types of bayonets were made pre 3rd Reich and we have conclusively moved the time back to at least 1931, I will have to look in my catalouge collection to see if I can find it in any of my Weimar catalouges.
I don't have much luck with contacting Wayne, twice I have tried and both times he has come back asking for some kind of info which I do not intend to divulge to him or anybody, he's got my email address so that should be enough, to be honest with you I'm sure this piece is OK and like most things I buy I'm comftable with it myself and thats all that matters to me. As this piece is pre 3rd Reich I'm not sure if there are any hard and fast rules regarding these etches, perhaps he would know and he is quite welcome to give his opinion in this thread but even if it were negative I would still know and feel it is good.
The way I always look at any piece is to work out if all the parts and pieces match as they do in this example, the chances of a faker knowing that this particular Horster mark is pre 3rd Reich and then applying an etch to match that mark in time frame is pretty slim, add to that the very reasonable price I paid and it just doesn't make sense to me for it to be a fake etch.



Thank you all very much for your comments.

Gary

[quote=Billy G.]Besides the relative scarcity of these short sawbacks, what drew me to this particular piece was the unusual hanging device that was on this bayonet. The best I can describe it would be a semi crudely fashioned frog with suspension loop affixed to a clip that was hung from a belt. There also was a strap with snap button to hold the grip of the bayonet in place while in wear.

I loved the piece even more when I found a slight wear mark on the reverse of the pommel where the bayonet obviously rersted against the metal clip while being worn. It gave it just a little more character & also meant the hanging device was original to the bayonet. Volume V of Tom Johnson's original dagger books shows an identical hanging device on a short '33-'34 Eickhorn sawback.

The bakelite grip plates on this piece are the usually seen diamond pattern instead of the earlier, elongated diamond type which we usually see on very early pieces. I'll deal with the earlier bakelite in a later post.
[/quote]

The above quote can be found as post # 15474



The short saw-back in Johnson VOL 5 was mine. And boy I miss it. It was bought at a small gun-show in MN. about 1982
Regards: James
PS this style of bayonet came out in the mid to late 20s.. (Period documents)

Gary,

I absolutely agree with you, this bayonet has a lot going for it in terms of circumstantial evidence and the fact you acquired it reasonably only adds to that. It is a bayonet I would like to have in my collection as well.

Regarding Wayne, I was curious about his thoughts only to the extent of what he thought about the specific font, considering his experience in the scope of etched bayonets.

The concept that these bayonets have been around prior to the inception of the 3R is certainly something I've thought about many times, simply based on maker marks, early bakelite patterns, hilt configurations and anecdotal facts like the date on your bayonet. It's always satisfying to delve into things this deeply.

Thanks for sharing!

[quote=Baz69]Billy

What is interesting to me is that we can now pretty much confirm that these types of bayonets were made pre 3rd Reich and we have conclusively moved the time back to at least 1931, I will have to look in my catalouge collection to see if I can find it in any of my Weimar catalouges.
I don't have much luck with contacting Wayne, twice I have tried and both times he has come back asking for some kind of info which I do not intend to divulge to him or anybody, he's got my email address so that should be enough, to be honest with you I'm sure this piece is OK and like most things I buy I'm comftable with it myself and thats all that matters to me. As this piece is pre 3rd Reich I'm not sure if there are any hard and fast rules regarding these etches, perhaps he would know and he is quite welcome to give his opinion in this thread but even if it were negative I would still know and feel it is good.
The way I always look at any piece is to work out if all the parts and pieces match as they do in this example, the chances of a faker knowing that this particular Horster mark is pre 3rd Reich and then applying an etch to match that mark in time frame is pretty slim, add to that the very reasonable price I paid and it just doesn't make sense to me for it to be a fake etch.



Thank you all very much for your comments.

Gary[/quote]

James
If anybody was going to have period documentation regarding the first use of this type of bayonet it would be you, can you tell us what type of documents you have regarding this issue whether it be written or pictorial in a catalouge for example and if so which makers catalouge.

Billy
thanks for your thoughts

Gary

Wow Gary, that etch looks great .

Hello all,

I recently picked up some nice daggers and bayonets from a WW2 vet's son, one of which is this fireman's bayonet. Its sawback teeth go in the opposite direction and I'd like ideas as to rarity, value and significance. It is unmarked and the left grip plate has a crack, but otherwise a really nice piece. All items were in a box that hadn't been opened in 70 years.Thanks a lot--

Gene