Hi Gents,

This frog came to me years ago & it always perplexed me. Although I am quite fond of dress bayonets, a majority of those I collect come with the standard patent leather frog or Polizei frog. That said, this frog's appearance is a little different.

The material is pliable like a supple leather but not identical, by any means. It's got a rubber-type smell to it & has a line pattern in it that reminded me of canvas. It's somewhat visible in this picture.

Some years ago, I was reading about late production frogs & saw a mention of an impregnated canvas frog. When I read that, it jumped out at me that what I have here might be that type of variant. Can any of you more familiar with frog types offer some assistance?

This is the obverse of the mystery frog. The line pattern is more visible on the reverse, however. Thanks in advance for any opinions.

Hi without seeing the frog close up or having it to hand it is difficult to really say.However I have somewhere in my collection a late war frog made from a cardboard like material with a paint finish .this may be the case with yours if so imo a very rare frog.
Dippy

Thanks Dippy. My initial picture showed the texture of the frog which is something I did find somewhat unique in what I'd seen of period frogs. Scaling down the resolution though limited what you can see here.

When I get home, I'll try to get a better macro pic of the frog, maybe that will help.

Try the edges you might see layers this will confirm cardboard as leather does not have layers and fabric will appear weaved finish.
Dippy

The frog is definitely not leather. For lack of a better term, it's like rubberized & has the smell to go along with it. A definite weave type pattern within it as well.

If this is such a late-war item, it would make sense because it came attached to a late war & somewhat unusual bayonet.

There are both laminated paper holsters and frogs that seem to have been used when leather was in short supply, and I may have some notes somewhere with some more specific information. But they don't smell like rubber, and oftentimes at the edges show evidence of delaminating. Circa 1938 some impregnated canvas like backpiece frogs were made for the German Police that now are as stiff as a piece of wood, with not much of a smell. And there are some 1941 dated frogs by a maker who made a lot of leather items for the German Police. Those frogs have a relatively strong rubber like smell, and look and feel like a piece of radiator hose. Complete with the fabric reinforcement that is seen sandwiched in between the rubber. Also as I recall having seen one other type that is a little different. Best Regards, Fred

I snagged 4 pics showing the pattern within the frog but only one was small enough to post here. Will lower their resolution & try to post later.

What do you think?

Looking at it now on a larger screen, I can see better definition & that there is a pattern within the frog's back but the finer detail is still not shown well. It's more of a cross hatch, fine line pattern of squares resembling a fabric. This is why I thought it might be impregnated canvas.

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Billy, It looks to me like it's the third type that I mentioned. With a second look at your pictures showing what may be wear marks on the scabbard from a frog with a longer pouch? Not that it matters because you have a really hard to find example of a synthetic material bayonet frog. Best Regards, Fred

Thanks for the thoughts Fred, they're much appreciated. So you think it could be the radiator hose type frog?

I've read a little about these but not much at all. The Polizei connection would make sense, considering what type of bayonet it was on when I found it.

This bayonet model does have its detractors, although that said, I've observed maybe 5-6 credible examples. This is over a 16 year period & those 5 or 6 examples were identical in construction & late prodution materials. The only differences were whether the blades were WKC marked or unmarked & whether the blades were sawback or plain.

Billy, I finally got a chance to pull out the frog I was speaking of and will try to find some time for a photo or two. The front and back has a larger more or less diamond shape set of cross hatchings underneath the rubber. The edges look like a two ply sidewall from a tire or radiator hose if it was made flat instead of curved. Showing the ends of the multiple strands in two layers sandwiched in between the rubber. With the smell rubber like, and if I had to make a guess synthetic? Saying that because some of the period Japanese items I've seen that I believe are natural rubber tend to really deteriorate, whereas that's not the case here. Best Regards, Fred

As always, thanks for your thoughts Fred. They're always appreciated. Regarding the diamond pattern you mentioned, that reminded me of something similar that I had seen recently. This reminded me of the term "radiator hose" frog.

These are some pics that are off Eban. The seller listed the frog as "rubberized" too. Was originally listed for $500 but didn't sell. Sold the 2nd time around for $250.

Reverse shot

Billy, That's the one! A little worn but still nice, the markings could also be a little worn or lightly struck - it's not one that turns very often. Best Regards, Fred