Hopefully, these pictures are a little better. I'm thinking these are Water Customs. Black ribbon over dark blue velvet. I'm amazed I can't find a good color photo of the Water Customs hangers in any references.
Sorry about that, hit the wrong image. Pic 7
These appear to be proper for the water custom dagger (not WPP) but as stated in your thread before, even IF period very hard to sell with the oak leaf instead of arcanthus leaf.
Wotan,
Thanks for your input on the hangers. All references I've looked at say oak leaves on the buckles, no mention of arcanthus leaves. Not that I doubt you, I'll be the first to admit my references are a bit sparse. I'd be interested to see what M Vogel or Huston have to say.
Gelb 14, you are quie right that there is not much about these hangers in reference books. Personally I have ownd one with the arcanthus leaf but have sold as I did ot have a proper dagger in view over a long period and I have seen two others with the arcanthus leaf. From time to time they come by with the oak leaf (in the moment WEITZE does have or had a dagger with hangers with oak leaf fittings) but the collector´s "consensus" is that these hangers should have arcanthus leaf fittings....
I ahve found a dscribtion of TTW in one of his offerins wherein he describes it as "...having the Custom leaves...".
I also could find in the TMJ "3R Edged Weapons Accouterments" book a pic of those hangers (although he has described it as "oak leaf design"
....
Came from the late Milestone collection.
Wotan,
First of all, thank you for the effort you have put into this, I greatly appreciate it. Sometimes, after checking available references and reviewing the facts things become clear as mud and it's time to make a gut decision. My feelings are that this is a good hanger. Even if the collecting communitys "concensus" treat these hangers as the red headed stepchild of Water Customs hangers. They do conform with other examples that have the oak leaves. The closed box top clip with the oak leaves on the face don't conform with the textbook smooth clip. Maybe this clip is a "Deluxe" clip. Are we to assume that only one manufacturer made hangers for this dagger? Probably, based on the number of daggers procduced. Could they have run out of parts and purchased parts from another manufacturer? Possibly. Many variables exist, with few supporting reference sources. Things that were fact ( Benchmark on Himmler dedication SS daggers ) 20 years ago have been... ahem...reconsidered. Lets keep an open mind. Perhaps this area needs to be revisited.
Manfred,
I've posted better pictures of the buckles. Would enjoy hearing your thoughts. Your RWPP grouping is awesome!
Gelb 14: I'm not sure how significant the army buckles are. I have seen army buckles on Land Customs hangers. Matter of fact there are two sets of hangers shown in Johnson's latest dagger series on pages 801 and 802. Apparently the presence of army buckles doesn't seem to be a requirement for authenticity.
But postwar made dagger hanger of nearly any kind made with original leftover materials have been made. As a result on many hangers the time of manufacture is pretty hard or even impossible to determine. Considering that these hangers are almost impossible to find I would certainly keep them. The average collector doesn't have the luxury to be too fussy about Water Customs hangers.
The ideal set of Customs hangers-Land or Water- will have the pointed leaves on the buckles. I believe there are also originals that have the oak leaf buckles--but this is the type usually used on reproductions and "parts" pieces.
It is interesting to note that there is another difference between these buckles not mentioned anywhere that I know of. The ones with the pointed leaves will usually have a wreath fastener or binding at the bottom much like most of the War Badges. The oak leaf type usually do not have this feature. It is also interesting to note that sometimes these buckles are mounted on the hangers upside down.
Houston, you are quite right on your observation. Same as on land custom buckles. Additionally the "fastener" devides the pointed arcanthus leaves into a right and a left running part meeting again at the top contrary to the army type wherein the oak leaves run around in clockwise direction without any start or end.
