This hanger looks very new but I have not found in it any differences from the original. Somebody met such variant hanger?

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"dog leash" clip is interesting will be interested to see what Dave Hohaus has to say on this one does look minty but thats not necessarily a problem where did it come from?

In Russia never you learn precisely whence there was a item.

Vertical hangers like that were used by the SS and there is no reason to think that the SA did not use them as well. All that I have seen are slightly different in detail. See below for mine.

I would be suspicious of the one you show based on the 100% clean and impeccable look of the clip and the buckle and rivets. 60+ years and not a blemish or trace of cleaning ? Also the buckle is a modern shape. Square buckles were used, but I have not seen many concave ones.

Dave

I have a couple on daggers and one still in
its wrapper untouched.Neither are like this.
They in fact look like a standard SS RZM marked
hanger except color.
Seiler.

Here's an SA vertical hanger that I've had for several years -

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Gordon

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pic 3 - last pic

Smell it. get right in there with your nose. It just looks too good. 75 yr old leather does not smell.

Best way to check for smell is to put it in a sealed plastic bag for a day then open bag if you can smell leather it aint old if no leather odour you got a minty hanger
Someone posted a mint standard hanger a while back that passed this smell test the hanger looked like it was made yesterday

The rivets look correct and it does show a bit of age. The smell is the key. There are no "standard" SA verticals. Almost all types-- IMO-- are unofficial.

ANOTHER VARIANT?? I HAVE HAD THIS FOR QUITE SOME TIME,YOUR OPINION IS WELCOME.......DAVE H

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Looks fine to me. A "stocko" snap is a positive sign of an original and is found on many HJ knives.

The very thin buckle is a dead giveaway. The Germans did not use this cheap junk.

Jerry Burney

Sorry--but YES--they did.

Houston, No need to be sorry... This thin cheap buckle is not typical of the era, especially on German made leather goods. This type of buckle is not found on German map cases, German holsters or any number of German leather items I could name.
Simply put.. this buckle would not be available as the Germans had a pride of craftsmanship that prevented making leather strap buckles this cheaply.
Perhaps you could tell me why it would be found here and where else it might be found?

Jerry Burney

IMO--Its typical German. Not issue type but this is not an issued item so you can't compare it to issue. Apples and oranges.

Houston, Looking at German leather is what I do on a daily basis and it is exactly NOT typical and that's my point. Don't go baking an orange and apple cake on me here..
Snaps, studs, buckles & all of the German metal parts found on this type of hanger as well as a myriad of German leather items are atypical of the period in which they existed. In the 1930's the Germans did not cheap out. That came later from post war Japan.. ALL of their fasteners were robust and quality. It was the way it was done. That's what their famous for!

As far as leaning back on the Not issue type but this is not an issued item so you can't compare it to issue. Yes you can. There were only so many suppliers of metal items in Europe at this time and NONE of them could get away with supplying this kind of shoddy junk to anyone. So they DIDN'T make it. You don't see it on original pieces because it didn't exist.

Another point on this buckle is the shape. Another is the chrome plate..no patina. At all. The buckle is thin and sharp at the edges..not good for leather. That's another reason German saddlers used robust thick buckles or rollers. It was kinder to the fragile strap. German Saddlers by this time had been making leather items for hundreds of years and were the World's best.
you will never convince me this buckle is 1930's era German.

I would welcome some sort of detailed reason why you think it is though.

Jerry Burney

My opinions on hangers are based on over 50 years of looking at them and collecting them. You can take it or leave it. These unofficial hangers were made from any parts that happened to be around at the time. It is very hard to find two alike and they don't usually conform exactly or sometimes even close to issue standards. End of story--JMHO

I need to dig through my accouterments ( or is it accoutrements ) as I think I have one.

Dave

Houston

quote:

These unofficial hangers were made from any parts that happened to be around at the time.

I respect your position in the collecting World and your experience.
That being said I cannot accept the reasoning you are using to defend this buckle, or actually a complete lack of reasoning.
Just happened to be laying around? Junk like this was NOT laying around. German Saddlers in the 1930's would not allow this thing in their shops much less to go out to a customer.

The first thing I look for on ANY German period item... such as a dagger for instance, is Quality. If I spot anything less than what I know is supposed to be there my BS meter goes off loud and clear.
I find it amazing that this buckle is being defended with such certainty.
You say it's the end of story and perhaps it is..I have listed a half a dozen reasons why I think it's repro junk..you say it isn't but I still don't know why you think that...If you have no reason's I guess it is the end of the story.

Jerry Burney

Jerry,

Those cheap looking clips may not be what is found on map cases or holsters, but I can assure you that they are a mainstay of the early, or pre-RZM, SS vertical hangers. One in two or one in three of them has something similar.

The vertical hangers were made during 1934 just after dagger introduction, when the wearers found out that a dagger swinging on a single strap hanger was hard to control.

Where did the clips come from ? My guess is from WWI gear plus a generation of accouterments made for the paramilitary formations of the late teen, the 20's and the early 1930's.

Here are some from my modest collection:

Another

Encore

Encore un

These are all from hangers shown in Tom Wittmann's SS book. You can see the full items as well as the reverses there.

Here are three sort of clunky types from the same era.

And finally, three identical, "D.R.G.M." marked cheap looking ones from SA/NSKK hangers.

Dave, Thanks for your post..I have been talking about the buckle not the hanger clip. You show some excellent examples of original German spring clips. They have a beautiful patina too..

BUT..As long as that subject is up for discussion..I don't like the one on Ilya's dagger hanger either. At the bottom of the spring clip there is a guard or housing cast into it. Take a look..you will see what I am talking about. A sloping flange around the bottom of the flat spring. That shouldn't be there and the spring clip is too thin.
Ilya's spring clip is a modern one as is the buckle. I have seen very few German spring clips where the spring is anchored from the outside such as Ilya's..mostly they have a hidden spring.

One other thing I don't like about this dagger hanger is the reverse of the rivets, they are split. Most of the hollow rivets I have seen and on the hangers I have here in my leather shop are full circles without a gap anywhere. I find this odd.
There are many good quality but suspect items that come out of Russian shops. I have an eye for detail and Ilya's hanger just does not measure up.

Jerry Burney

Ilya-
Did you ever come up with a verdict on if it smells of leather or not as was suggested?

A lot of the early buckles are poor quality too. Stay tuned.

Rivets? No consistency at to the early ones and even the RZM markets items vary.

Dave

quote:

Did you ever come up with a verdict on if it smells of leather or not as was suggested?

Fellows, You are relying on what USED to be true...Now you take a new leather item and stick it into a can with some good old pipe tobacco and a few other items I won't name. It will come out in a few days smelling so original your hound dog couldn't tell...

I guess I will give up here..the experts have beaten me.
I just cant fight all the hard facts presented.
One cannot defeat the wind with the best sword...

Jerry Burney

Jerry-

Please don't give up on this topic.
You've made numerous interesting points that seem to be resonable.

I thought it was a easy,simple test that was suggested months ago and could maybe of given a clue either way.

I'm all for hearing what you have to say as I'm trying to learn something on the subject and don't know for sure one way or another.

Dean, I am not giving up on the topic..I have just learned something though. If experts who have been collecting 50 years think this is real I can get rich making and selling them from stuff I have laying around.

Jerry Burney

I believe Ilya's hanger is a modern repro. I don't like the look of the leather, the clip or the clasp.

AS far a repro hangers go they are everywhere. On some of the biggest dealer sites...being sold as original. Do they know it? I don't know.

Take a look at TENO hangers, RAD Leader and EM's, SA and particularly the SS verticals that have been coming out of the former Eastern Block lately.
You guys ever see what a piece of leather (Hanger) that has been in Russia for 60 Years looks like?

Hint: It looks a little different than a U.S. vet who scored at Dachau and brought it all home to his house in Arizona and kept it in his foot locker.

Regards,
-serge-

Jerry,

Many of the early SS vertical hangers have cheap and thin buckles.

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Some were more complex, but still very low cost

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Rivets of all types are found, sometime different types on the same hanger.

And they dit split

Gentlemen, this is a super interesting thread! Thanks to all for their contributions and pictures.