UBB.threads
Posted By: Skynyrd Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/07/2014 07:18 PM
Interesting.
Appears he was engaged in some shenanigans over an alleged Mengele passport and, after much ado, was given the heave ho.
We'll see if it sticks, and what if anything comes from the team of experts who are said to be examining this document. I imagine GDC may be his outlet for any breaking news since he is now silenced at WAF, at least for the time being.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=717482
Posted By: Dow Cross Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/07/2014 08:29 PM
Just read the thread on WAF and find it incrediable what a mess.
Posted By: patrice Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/07/2014 09:18 PM
My goodness, just read the entire thread and it is even better than a soap opera. grin

Funny how friends stay silent during a turmoil ?

Where are the Laurel and Hardy ? grin
He even went on various FaceBook(FaceWaste) groups/pages touting this POS fake/fantasy passport.
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/07/2014 09:48 PM
I would like to see him come clean with the source of this, whether it is fake or genuine I don't see why it has to be treated like a state secret. Very good odds the source is a forger/fraud/scammer, quicker hes outted the better, and longer Craig waits the worse it looks on him for protecting the identity of a possible high level thief.

There are only 2 possibilities, Craig - Either its good or its not.
If its good, then the source of this questionable document would no doubt love the attention.
If its bad, then its self evident why he should be revealed. Do the right thing, salvage some of your rep and put it on record, unless there is some compelling reason not to. He needs to be outted, not to satisfy my curiosity or anyone else, but simply to protect others from getting burned.
Posted By: kyles bullets Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/07/2014 10:06 PM
Well. That turned down hill quick lol
Posted By: Dave Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/08/2014 12:21 AM
Wow!

That is something else.
Posted By: Tanker Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/08/2014 12:45 AM
Well, when you do questionable things, they catch up with you! He has been given a free pass for too long in the hobby and now is the time for it to stop.
Ron
Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner) Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/08/2014 05:11 AM
Craig always throws everyone, within arms length, under the bus. However this time he was protecting The Source (forger), which leads many to the conclusion of why, all of which (in the real world) doesn't look good for him. The WAF thread reads like a slow mo train wreak with a 'Legend in his own mind' trying to steer the UN-steerable wreak of his own making.

What's bad for the hobby has to go, or the hobby goes down the drain.

Serge
Posted By: Sepp Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/08/2014 11:34 AM
Really are any of you surprised about CG...This guy seems to do this to himself...I don't understand how he can even walk any more,he keeps shooting himself in his feet so many times.


Sepp

GDC 0292 Gold
Posted By: DJDR Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/08/2014 02:24 PM
I have read many different threads and posts about if there is ever a doubt about the authenticity of a certain item, that the person selling it should "come clean" and reveal the truth about it , and where it came from. Then I have read in many places how with each passing year there are more and more fakes and garbage turning up at the MAX and SOS. "tables of fakes". And that no one says anything about it.

We'll if I could I would call them out on it. Here on this site many of you have been extremely helpful when it comes to someone asking if a certain item is legit The knowledge I have learned here ihas been very beneficial . But in a hobby where we would like to see more collectors, how detrimental would it be for someone to buy a " fake" at a show for quite a bit of money just to find out its junk! No more collector, bad experience , kill the hobby!

Yes, I know about buyer beware, but where do you start when you don't know about all the tiny details about a dagger? Yes, read and educate yourself. Getting burned should not be a lesson every collector should go through especially when this is an expensive hobby I really hope that the more knowledgable guys will point them out at the SOS. If not, you will have more people come to see your collection / museum and "window shop" and be too afraid to buy because of the fear of throwing away a few thousand. Wish there was a true way of authentication It would be better than nothing IMO.
Posted By: Andy Mraz Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/08/2014 02:31 PM
Call me a sceptic, but after close inspection of the passport, I doubt that picture is Mengele.

Attached picture GM2.jpg
Posted By: Gaspare Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/08/2014 05:41 PM
ha ha,, some funny comments just here alone and I didn't even see the WAF site. laugh.
There is just SO much bullshit with his questionable or outright fake items every year.. Yet when he has the piece you/we want he gets the sale,,oh well such is the state of our hobby now...Really,,I don't think dealers like him or Floch should even be allowed to have a table at the big shows.
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/08/2014 07:46 PM
Craig has elevated himself to the upper levels of militaria collecting, and he is obviously a very good talker and self promoter ,,, Perhaps too much so, I doubt if "humble" is in his vocabulary. I have no doubt about his passion, but I think greed & vanity are overriding factors here and led him to make some rash decisions that morphed into this latest fiasco.
Credit where credit is due, the man has probably had 1,000's of successful transactions, and his stint on pawn stars and drive to create his own spinoff are noteworthy ,,, But unfortunately, it will be scandals like this that sticks in everyones minds. One can only hope that he is capable of learning lessons and concede that everyone, including himself, is capable of making mistakes ,,, And its often how one handles the aftermath that makes the mark on the man.
Posted By: JHoll Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/08/2014 11:28 PM
IMO, Craig will spin this and try and come out looking like the good guy again. He's likely trying to track down the faker and will have a full camera crew with him to film the "take down". In the end he will tell us all how it was all a ruse to catch the guy and he couldn't talk about cause it was an active investigation.
Not of a fan of the guy, but he is a great spin doctor.
Posted By: Tanker Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/09/2014 12:03 AM
We tried to voice these concerns/attitudes/characteristics before on the forum and were either censored, banned or told we were just haters. What they falied to realize, was we just wanted to protect the hobby and identified actons like CG displayed as bad for the hobby. Has nothing to do with the person but his actions. I am glad it is being realize by this forum and others. Ron
Posted By: Grumpy Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/09/2014 01:22 AM
CG used to occasionally appear on "Pawn Stars" as an "arms expert." Haven't seen him there for awhile. Anything, regardless of what it is, advertised as rare, with a high price, is likely to be a fraud, but not necessarily so.
Posted By: Seiler Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/09/2014 09:19 AM
Storm in a tea-cup!!
Front page of L.A.Times Feb 8th
Gottlieb found dead in mens toilet in San Diego.
"Naked bound and gagged" suspected homicide.
Ongoing
Seiler (yank in UK)
Posted By: DJDR Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/09/2014 09:33 AM
I agree with you Tanker. I'm still waiting for an answer to my earlier post. CG is one guy. How about all the others? Especially if they sell bogus stuff right in front of reputable dealers.
Posted By: paulbear Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/09/2014 07:17 PM
we have lost many great members from scandals like this over their albeit correct comments , I was never so glad to see him leave this forum. Leave it over on WAF guys we do not need to loose any more members here just saying this is one with potential to get nasty.
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/09/2014 07:55 PM
I dunno Paul ... This is legit TR collecting news, we can't shy away from addressing or even acknowledging things like this, else the forum will turn into pretty much a meek sales venue and little more. Any forum you have guys walking around on eggshells to some degree, this one is no exception and neither is WAF, all kinds of guys there predicting a ban for speaking their minds.
So long as there is no mudslinging or baseless innuendo I don't think it will be a problem, Craig no doubt wants to see this issue get buried the quicker the better, I think it should stay alive until it is resolved in some fashion. Yes they booted him from WAF but they also locked down the thread, so save for people who have read it or participated in it, there will be many unaware of this potential scandal.
Posted By: Mikee Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/09/2014 10:54 PM
I have no qualms about the guy promoting himself as long as he's an honest dealer and clearly advertises the correct persona of himself, so that he's not perceived to be someone he clearly might not be. Is he an honest dealer? That's the question that needs to be addressed! I don't know him so I can't say.

But what I don't like, and this is from my perception from seeing and reading things from his own self serving hand is himself giving off the persona and perception of someone he clearly isn't without correction. Using words like found, uncovered or discovered under the disguise as a hunter of history or "History Hunter" when in fact he didn't go hunting for anything. These items were clearly brought to him.

If this passport is fake then why is he still promoting it as genuine to the world, and then why not correct it? See his Wikipedia page at; Gottlieb
Posted By: paulbear Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/10/2014 01:44 AM
you are totally correct Doug just don't want to see any more of the old guard disappear from here used to be so much fun.
Posted By: DAMAST Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/10/2014 07:59 PM
Originally Posted By: Mikee


If this passport is fake then why is he still promoting it as genuine to the world, and then why not correct it? See his Wikipedia page at;



Nothing positive so I edited post..
Posted By: Mikee Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/10/2014 10:37 PM
soft voice...First time I've had a statement edited. Why? It's a neutral statement, neither positive or negative. It's a question for goodness sake and a legitimate question that only CG can answer. Not only that, the statement is factual. It's stated on the page mentioned as well as the news and other sources. Which, if he still is allowing this passport to be looked at or not by forensics I'm sure he will provide information in due time or not. That's up to him. Thank you.

This great site "GDC" that we have "privileged" access to, isn't responsible for the actions of it's members are they? So why would that statement ruffle anyone's feathers? It shouldn't!
Posted By: Tanker Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/10/2014 10:47 PM
I agree, This should not have been edited! A legitmate question that needs an answer. If we start editing and censoring, then we will never know the truth. If the forum does that, then they are afraid of the truth being said. Ron
Are you sure it was edited? Usually down at the bottom its says edited by Whoever. See Damst edit thread above.
Posted By: Mikee Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/10/2014 11:49 PM
Although the statement is still there. It is stated, Nothing positive so I edited post. So the intent is?
Posted By: derjager Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/11/2014 12:12 AM
I take it to mean Damast edited his own post because he decided it (his post) was nothing positive.

But ask him.

--dj--Joe
Posted By: Jim W Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/11/2014 12:29 AM
I am only guessing, but I think Damast edited his own post. Because no one edited Mikee's post.

So, let us hear from Damast before we start lighting the torches and grabbing the pitchforks.
Posted By: Tanker Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/11/2014 12:44 AM
I tend to agree. No harm, no foul.Ron
Posted By: Dave Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/11/2014 01:11 AM
Soft voice, Mikee:

The only person who edited your post was yourself. You posted it at 02:54 02/09/14 and went back 7 times over the next 32 minutes to change the words you posted. Each change is recorded in the Admin Log along with the date, time and the IP of the person who made the change. The IP is yours. No one else touched your post

You also went back 4 times to amend post #294671 above

DAMAST edited his own post once as noted.

Dave

PS - Sometimes the edit is recorded on the post and sometimes not. Why, I do not know
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/11/2014 01:26 AM
I'll bite ,,, Who/what is "soft voice" ?
Posted By: DAMAST Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/11/2014 02:11 AM
Yes, Sorry for all the confusion, I edited my own post..... I wrote something that was true but not positive at all and I deleted my post.. Regards: James
Posted By: Vern Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/11/2014 02:43 AM
When you edit a post, there is a check mark at the bottom labeled "Mark as Edited?". If you click on it, it will remove the check mark, and the edit will not be recorded on the new post. It will still show as edited in the Admin Logs wink
Posted By: DAMAST Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/11/2014 03:10 AM
So, Mikee there is no problem at all with you posts.....I just made a mess of things when I edited my post. There that should straighten it all out.... crazy
Posted By: Mikee Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/11/2014 05:29 AM
Soft voice.. smile Dave you are correct, I'm the only one that changed my post and always take the time allotted to edit my own post. Like I'm doing right now. So, of course I know what I wrote, I just misunderstood Damast's post. I thought he had the power to if he wanted, I was wrong. "My misunderstanding". I'm sorry and my humble apologies to Damast and to anyone else I've offended for my misunderstanding. Sorry you had to work so hard to dig up all those changes Dave! frown
Posted By: Gaspare Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/11/2014 05:57 AM
Mikee,,yeah just technical difficulties ,[everyone in soft voice now],,,yes please, thank you, yes sir, we can all get along now..

Aw HELL! 'lighting the torches and grabbing the pitchforks' is so much more fun!!! ,,,Come on guys who's got a freakin match! laugh wink
Posted By: Mac 66 Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/11/2014 06:28 PM
Mac66,

Read our Code of Conduct again please. The bits about insults and adult language. Thanks
Posted By: Mac 66 Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/12/2014 04:04 PM
Originally Posted By: Mac 66
Mac66,

Read our Code of Conduct again please. The bits about insults and adult language. Thanks



Dave, worse things have been said at a kindergarten.

this forum is to heavily policed imo.
Posted By: Dave Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/13/2014 01:24 AM
Well, Mac, that would depend on where you went to kindergarten wouldn't it?

And if you think this is heavily policed, the owner of GDC always says that the Internet is a vast expanse with a place for everyone. Maybe yours is elsewhere?
Posted By: DJDR Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/13/2014 04:28 AM
Well Craig, hope you clear this up. Many legit questions have been brought up. I would think you will break your silence soon, this deals with your business after all Of course with the good , there will be the haters.......green with envy over the items you do get your hands on.
Wow, surprised ?, not in the least...the chickens come home to roost sooner than later. Dumbfounded by those that still defend...loyalty is an admirable quality but foolishness is not. Regards, Ryan S
Posted By: DJDR Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/13/2014 04:46 AM
Very admirable Ryan. Glad to see where you stand in my comment. So there is someone who casts stones.....
I Cast no stones...just Craig took me for $7000 and then bragged about how he "raped me" I stand by everything I state..it is a matter of record...he and I had done very good mutually rewarding business omn many occasions. I dealt with him first hand and I know how I was played and misled...I had drank the kool aid once as well my friend... I liked him and did not bash him and I defended him many times...I always gave the benefit of the doubt and my moniker was "He has always been good and fair with me"....it was not until I suffered it first hand. I had also forgiven him on two previous indiscretions...three strikes you are out..fool me once shame on you...fool me twice, shame on me...when you have the facts and know the history then you can comment recklessly feel free to email me at anytime for a frank and honest discussion rsellick@rogers.com I will extend you that...
Posted By: DJDR Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/13/2014 05:33 AM
Sorry for your loss. True, you have been collecting and in the hobby longer than I have. If I was taken for $7000, I would be furious! I posted a comment earlier in this thread, still waiting for any kind of answer. Many members talk about getting more, younger people interested in collecting. Obviously , it already has some serious hurdles for a new collector.......very expensive, the whole Nazi crap ( though I do know this site and it's collectors do not promote the Third Reich's ideology ) people tend to look at you weird when you tell them you enjoy the history and art of the SS. The point I'm trying to get across is, if there are individuals who choose to sell fakes, junk, including CG, then they do need to be pointed out. Defending Craig, nope, just thinking in this business where your word and trust matter, he would say something.

PLEASE, if you do care about the health of the hobby, and you go to this years SOS, let your fellow collector know a bad dealer. If they are allowed to sell "tables of crap" , we will have many more getting " taken" Uh-oh, not another hurdle.
The collecting fraternity is self protective and close knit...many collectors are fearful of saying something negative about a dealer even when they have a bad experience...also there are two sides to every story. I have been an active collector in Third Reich since 1982. I have, in the past 32 years sold a lot of things to many dealers and collectors, hundreds of items, some pretty top shelf. I have had zero complaints and zero returns. I have sold to many forum members. Although no one is perfect and even the best can be fooled from time to time it is how one reacts as a dealer to these "situations" and the customer service that matters. You live or die by your reputation in this hobby and at the end of the day, regardless of how many haters or lovers or detractors/supporters you might have, only you , the individual is responsible for his reputation...cheers and regards, Ryan
Posted By: JohnZ Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/13/2014 03:03 PM
Ryan:

You are so right about everything that you say here.

Reputation is hard earned and needs to be protected every day. It is very easily lost. And, how one handles a large dollar dispute is what determines the character of a dealer. Small dollars are easy for anyone to resolve... but, the big ones?

All of these 'lifetime guarantees' are only as good as the word of the man who gave them. And, what happens to the guarantee when the dealer moves on or dies?

I believe that one reason that so many close ranks when a bad deal goes sour is that everyone sometimes deals with everyone else in this hobby and few people want to burn bridges because that could cost them a deal in the future. Many high end items are sold by a grouping of dealers (one knows a collector with deep pockets, another knows where a high end item is available, a third has a relationship with the owner of the high end item, etc, so they all get together and share in the profits). So, why tee off a potential money maker?

John
John, I couldn't agree with you more. regards, Ryan
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/13/2014 08:58 PM
Bottom line is there is no "TR Collecting Police Force" to impose any effective sanctions against crooked dealers. Almost all dealers of note have been involved in some scandals, some more than others - Craig seems to happen more than others only because he makes himself so visible and somewhat promotes the drama that eventually is turned against him. In that regards, maybe his "expulsion" from WAF will turn out to be a blessing for him. He won't be able to toot his own horn as he apparently craves to do, but he'll be able to fly under the radar more.
Still, only a certain % of collectors will be aware or care about his shenanigans, he will take it on the chin and keep on rolling until the next shady deal surfaces. So long as people continue to buy his wares, he's on top of the game ,,, And a certain small % that refuse to have any dealings with him at all is just collateral damage to a guy like that, part of doing business in the upper tiers of what can be a very shady racket.
Hell, look at Snyder, he has been pilloried and ridiculed, called out and slammed for years in the community, he keeps going happily along selling his Eva undies with no end in sight, and so long as a buck can be turned, he will continue to do so.
Posted By: Dave Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/14/2014 01:02 AM
Sky,

The only TR Collecting Police Force are the collectors themselves. If they decide not to buy from someone that's it. But my observation is that despite the talk at the bar, the next day they buy from the guy who has what they like.

All else,

Craig has not signed on here since last August, so if you hoping for a defense, who knows.
Posted By: Gaspare Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/14/2014 03:10 AM

Dave, Doug , etc. your all right..

They could be the biggest scumbag,,but IF they have what we're looking for we'll buy.. Such is the state of the hobby and one of the reasons why the younger guys aren't in to the hobby..
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/14/2014 03:40 AM
I personally have sworn off buying anything ever from a few dealers, Craig included after the HR scam, that was enough for me ,,, Then again, I am not much into the high end, but I have deleted all bookmarks to their sites and am never even slightly tempted to buy anything from them or even check their inventory. Also swore off one that gave me a ridiculously lowball offer for some items I had for sale, haven't so much as looked at his site in over 3 years.
Of course I am not going to cripple their business or even make a dent, its personal and thats that, they are not getting 1 red cent from me under any circumstances.

Far as Craig speaking up for himself, I have no preference. Maybe he had enough of that on WAF I don't know, I don't think GDC is a grand enough stage for him to make any pronouncements anymore, but if he does feel like chiming in I'm all ears.
Posted By: Dave Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/14/2014 03:53 AM
Again, I agree. There are a very few dealers I will not patronize.

Personal preference and it may not do any god, but there you are.
Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner) Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/15/2014 05:40 AM
Originally Posted By: Skynyrd
I personally have sworn off buying anything ever from a few dealers, Craig included after the HR scam, that was enough for me ,,, Then again, I am not much into the high end,
-edit-


The dealers like Craig don't care about beginner or mid-range collectors like you. They are looking for the Big Buck, well healed, deep pocket collector. who will buy their humped up sleds for the big ticket. They know that the courts combined with the stigma of collecting 'Nazi items' will work against the buyer should he want to take legal action. So the Deep Pockets newbie trusting buyer just eats it and stays quiet and they move on, or in many cases, quits the hobby.

As far as self policing; sure wish that was possible, but it's not. Bob Johnson still sells his SS wedding rings and Himmler chairs. Charley Snyder (as mentioned earlier), a whole host of fakes. However, the last auction of Craig's came up there was a thread on WAF mentioning the two scarce daggers being auctioned, the SS Full Rohm and a SA high leader. Both of them IMO ( and other knowledgeable veteran collectors), were humped-up sleds. I knew it, others knew it, but did we post any comment on the thread? -NO. And neither do the well known good dealers who see it. why? because it's just not good for business.

On these high end humpers, they are looking to get Big Dollars from the guys who have the big dollars, but don't have the big knowledge. So a SA High leader goes for $41,000, with a blade that was acid dipped, gold re-gilded, leather replaced (Craig said it was original), with what looked like a 'Manion's chain' that had fresh brass braising on the link connectors.
Now I was not the only one that saw that, yet nobody made a comment out in the open. In private, we all agreed. So that's how it is now with this hobby.
If you have serious money to spend on 'high end', you better have a knowledgeable friend who will guide you, or you may very well end up with a super collection of 'parts', worth a fraction of what you paid and no one to turn to when you see the light.

-serge-

Posted By: stratocaster3 Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/15/2014 01:53 PM
Serge,
Great synopsis. I am not a dealer. I am strictly a collector that on occasion sells pieces to high-grade my collection. I do on rare occasions buy a high end item and frankly, high end is in the eye of the beholder. If I have the scrimp and save to purchase it, it is high end for me. When I do, I am nervous and cautious but try to do all of my homework first. However, I admit that in the end, it is a leap of faith based on the reputation of the dealer and the relationship I have built with them over the years.

I buy mostly from dealers as they provide a service to me. I do not have the time in my career to scour the planet for hard to locate items. I do what I can, when I can and pulling a piece "out of the woodwork" is a thrill that we all love. I have been sold a reproduction by a well known dealer before. Was it deliberate, no. We all make mistakes. The fact that the piece was a forgery only became documented well after I purchased it. Would I approach the dealer about it? No. It was under $500. He sold it to me in good faith and I have had a great relationship with the dealer with many other transactions over the years.

One observation is that all dealers are critical of one another over details from time to time. I think this is healthy as it is not meant to be mean spirited but rather a debate in the vagaries of this hobby. However, there are a few dealers (some in your the list above) that even a collector of relatively average experience can observe that they consistently have bad items for sale. If they do this with relatively common items you can bet very rare items are likely spurious. I am amazed at how openly brazen one is in particular. Almost criminal. These are the dealers that poison the hobby for new comers.

Then there are the ones you mention that deal in the exotic and ultra rare. Well, most of the time the folks that collect in these areas can afford to take a hit financially. It is just another world compared to the average guy. It is a world fraught with higher risk and like gambling, the odds are in the house's favor. This is entertainment and not investing. I would also caution anyone who collects in this arena to secure their financial well being in retirement. These items are just not fungible and a poor strategy.

IMO, the reason dealers don't call out the blatantly bad ones is the liability that goes with it. Also, what goes around comes around. Collectors do communicate and caution other collectors. But dealers, not so much. To clean this hobby up is a risky game for dealers that rely on the hobby for their livelihood.
Posted By: Tanker Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/15/2014 07:48 PM
Quote from Serge
"As far as self policing; sure wish that was possible, but it's not. Bob Johnson still sells his SS wedding rings and Himmler chairs. Charley Snyder (as mentioned earlier), a whole host of fakes. However, the last auction of Craig's came up there was a thread on WAF mentioning the two scarce daggers being auctioned, the SS Full Rohm and a SA high leader. Both of them IMO ( and other knowledgeable veteran collectors), were humped-up sleds. I knew it, others knew it, but did we post any comment on the thread? -NO. And neither do the well known good dealers who see it. why? [i]because it's just not good for business.
Now I was not the only one that saw that, yet nobody made a comment out in the open. In private, we all agreed.
[/quote]

And that is the problem today. Folks who know and should have known, HAVE to speak up when something is wrong! If you have a good ethical background and conduct your business honestly, then you are doing yourself good and the collecting community a serivce. By not commenting or bringing it up only makes you look camplacence in the shady business practices. Being honest will alway show you in a positive light.
I think that knowing a piece is bad or questional and not bring it up is really no better than offering it yourself.
Your businesses will never hurt from being honest!
I think the day of just turning away and hoping it goes away is and will be over. Ron
Posted By: DJDR Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/15/2014 08:55 PM
And the winner is Ron ( Tanker). That last paragraph of your comment is spot on! The members that are dealers really need to understand in order for this hobby to continue and grow, is to have honest people that will stand up and say something about fakes and other questionable items. Serge, if you think not commenting about a bogus item and bringing it to light is bad for business, how do you think new collectors are going to feel about the whole hobby environment. This is going to make it very difficult to bring in new collectors. Not only do you have to worry about fakes, but now you have to worry about the people that deal them knowing their fakes and nobody saying anything about it. Who can anybody trust? As I see it, some third Reich items will soon be easy to forge. Unless you can do some carbon dating, it's going to fool many people. I'm going to the SOS. as of right now, I think there's maybe only two guys that I MIGHT purchase anything from. Because I do enjoy the hobby, as for the rest of the dealers, I'm coming to look at all your collections. I will give you credit, you guys have some great stuff let it be fake or for real. And believe me, I'm not the only one that feels this way. I would like to see this hobby continue on and grow. But, like Tanker said "I think that knowing a piece is bad or questional and not bring it up is really no better than offering it yourself.
Your businesses will never hurt from being honest!
I think the day of just turning away and hoping it goes away is and will be over."
Posted By: Dave Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/15/2014 09:37 PM
A small reminder of a couple of things:

1. Please leave out the insults. They add nothing.

2. Keep in mind that you are legally responsible for what you post.

Dave
Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner) Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/16/2014 12:51 AM
Originally Posted By: DJDR
And the winner is Ron ( Tanker). That last paragraph of your comment is spot on! The members that are dealers really need to understand in order for this hobby to continue and grow, is to have honest people that will stand up and say something about fakes and other questionable items. Serge, if you think not commenting about a bogus item and bringing it to light is bad for business, how do you think new collectors are going to feel about the whole hobby environment. This is going to make it very difficult to bring in new collectors. Not only do you have to worry about fakes, but now you have to worry about the people that deal them knowing their fakes and nobody saying anything about it. Who can anybody trust?



First, Everybody makes mistakes, that's a given. Who do you trust? well, you first start by avoiding the names that are in constant controversy and gravitate toward the guys that are recommended by your fellow collectors.
Second, you buy books to learn and compare. (actually this should be first). There is a great number of reference material today then when I started. (Col. James Atwood's dagger book was considered The Bible at the time.) Books are your friends.

Now, I'm going to mention something from experience that may not sit too well with some, but it's the way I see it.
Many newer collectors today don't want to buy books. They feel they don't need it, or they are outdated. They would rather constantly ask basic questions on originality on forums such as this with; 'Hey Guys, guys what do you think about this one, is it original?' But to spend $150. on a outstanding SS dagger book - Nah...I'll just ask the guys on the forum.

Then you go to shows and look at many examples as possible. Develop friends it the hobby, but don't burn them out.

Spending your money should be last. You will find the hobby much more enjoyable when you really know what your buying and the uniqueness of the artifact.

Quote:

Serge, if you think not commenting about a bogus item and bringing it to light is bad for business, how do you think new collectors are going to feel about the whole hobby environment.


New collectors have better learn the real world of the hobby environment. Anyone who has been in the hobby and on the forums a number of years, and has been vocal about exposing the 'humpers', will tell you how unrewarding that experience is. I been there , I know.
First off, your giving an opinion, which you believe is truthful on some dealers $41,000 dagger who prides himself on writing $250,000 checks. Your giving a 'thumbs down' to it on the open to potential buyer who you don't know from Adam. You think that if the buyer listens to that 'deal killing opinion' that the seller won't be upset? Oh you can say 'who cares- IT'S THE TRUTH !. No, it's not, it's just a opinion, usually taken from a photo.
Besides, at times a newbie will reach out in a PM and ask 'what I think'. well, if I don't like it, guess what's the first question that comes from the seller he's dealing with?- 'Who told you that?'
And so, you get another seller that you probably know mad at you, as you killed his deal. Then, he doesn't forget that, and may repay you in kind for a item your later selling. all that for some guy you hardly know?
You can also be opening yourself up to hiring a lawyer to do some reply letters on your behalf. See Dave's note;
Quote:

2. Keep in mind that you are legally responsible for what you post.

Dave

Dave is right about that.

So, my point is; DO YOU want to possibly bring that upon yourself to some guy you don't even know? If so, OK, I'm proud of anyone who will take on the bad apples of the hobby. However, be aware of what can be awaiting a whistle blower who does expose's on a 'Mega-Dealer'.

For me, I'm done trying to educate newbies on 'How to tell a Fake Rohm dedication from authentic'. Try that one sometime...Oh, they will ask it, and there are some here who think you should do it. laugh

-serge-
Posted By: Tanker Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/16/2014 01:47 AM
True, everbody makes mistakes. The problem is when it continues into a trend.
When I started collecting (as with a lot of other collectors here), we did not have the luxury of the internet to vet a piece. Yes, we has soem books, but mostly relied on the honesty of fellow collectors.
Books were written and some have been identified as having bad pieces referenced a original pieces. Now, if a collector is usign those references to collect, tehn that is not helping them.
My first venture into collecting an SS dagger (before the books/internet) only brought me heartache. Fortunately, Gailen David steped forward and help me out with knowledge. Some of the "big time" collectors didn't have the time to help a new collector.
So, I guess what I am saying, regardless of the books or info available today, we should share our knowledge and help the hobby get stonger and grow, not hide our knowledge thinking that if we share, the competitors will get ahead. Ron
Posted By: patrice Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/16/2014 02:05 AM
I can only agree 100% with Serge, every time I've tried to help a newbie or condemned a well known dealer, I got burned by his fan club. I therefore stay quiet as it serves little purpose, sad but true. As Serge said, do your homework first, buy books, read old threads on subjects that do interest you and ask meaningful questions but the most important thing is the following........trust no one but yourself. wink

Almost forgot, people tend to also have extreme short memories, I can easily list here a few names from highly respected dealer/collector on this forum and yet, the same people have been proven to be involved in fraudulent business practices.
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/16/2014 03:14 AM
Interesting comments from seasoned collectors ,,Myself, I am on the low/mid range to stay, and I like it that way. In fact the highest end TR item I have ever bought was right here from Pat, that stunning tiger striped SA. So that shows you that you don't necessarily drop $25K to get something truly unique and jaw dropping, even among seasoned collectors. But when it comes to personality items connected to high TR leaders, the sky is the limit and I am just an interested observer, and what happens there can trickle down to the low range too.

Fact seems to be in this case that there initially was no scandal, not at all. It looked like Craig got burned but just had a hard time accepting it, which is understandable.
You see threads all the time with guys asking for opinions on controversial items, then when the consencious is negative they take it personal, and refuse to believe anything other than their item is good ,,, And if anyone thinks otherwise, they will never prove it conclusively 100% - Kinda makes you wonder why they seek opinions in the first place if they are just going to reject out of hand anything that doesn't align with their own. Hindenburg badges, Olympic medals, sniper patches ect are notorious for this kind of thing. Guys know going in that their odds are slim, but they think they have somehow cracked the holy grail with an undocumented prototype find of a lifetime.

Anyhow, the controversy which is the subject of this thread started with Craig point blank refusing to name the source of the documents, then possibly and vindictively having a hand in tampering with wikipedia entries to make himself look like the salt of the earth and one of his "detractors" as a detestable fraud. He has yet, so far as I'm aware, to address these topics, until he does his name is going to be Mud for many, and deservingly so.
Posted By: patrice Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/16/2014 03:37 AM
Hey Doug,

Hope you are still enjoying that wonderful Tiger stripped SA dagger ? smile
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/16/2014 06:02 AM
Originally Posted By: Pat
Hey Doug,

Hope you are still enjoying that wonderful Tiger stripped SA dagger ? smile


frown Nope, enjoyed it for quite a few years but it moved on into good hands to the Netherlands, back in Europa !

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/sa-dienstd...694/#post915306
Posted By: patrice Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/16/2014 01:16 PM
My goodness, what a beauty, didn't remembered being so nice, why in the world did I sell it ? grin
Posted By: kyles bullets Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/16/2014 05:14 PM
Is there any reason as to why the wood is tiger striped? Was this just the wood or did it have a special purpose?
Posted By: stratocaster3 Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/16/2014 06:36 PM
Kyle,
No special purpose IMO. Certain woods develop a grain in certain circumstances that develop this attractive pattern. Maple is the most common but you can find it in walnut, koa, coco bolo, mahogany. I don't believe wood choice was ever an added cost option in the period that I am aware of like one has today with guitars for example.
Rick
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/16/2014 08:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Pat
My goodness, what a beauty, didn't remembered being so nice, why in the world did I sell it ? grin


I knew instantly I'd regret it and I did, but all things have their time to go, illustrating the fact that we are not actual owners but rather care takers. It has traveled [that I know of]from Germany to Canada to USA to Netherlands, its travels are not over.
I can tell you this, it held its value. I bought it what 5 to 7 years ago when the market was still a bit inflated and I sold it months ago in a flat market for more than I paid. Beauties like this always hold and increase their value ,, And though my collecting motivation is rarely ever profit, thats always good to know.
Here is a thread I started here about it
http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=230756&page=1

[There are those who propose that the stripes are man made, I've so far found their arguments unconvincing].
Posted By: stratocaster3 Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/17/2014 12:01 AM
Doug,
I don't even collect SA's and I will tell you, I would have strayed in a heartbeat to get that one. Name your price. A cut above the rest of the herd.
Another example; always buy the top 20%. They always hold their value and you never have to make excuses. Better to have a few really nice ones that a massive collection of the ordinary.
Posted By: Tanker Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/17/2014 01:08 AM
We may want to start a separate thread on the SA as it is getting a little off topic. Don't want the original topic to fade away into an SA review. Ron
Posted By: Gaspare Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/17/2014 02:24 AM
"However, be aware of what can be awaiting a whistle blower who does expose's on a 'Mega-Dealer'."

Ha, ha,,your kidding with that comment right?!
Posted By: stratocaster3 Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/17/2014 02:26 AM
Indeed Tanker but don't you think we have trashed CG enough ( I am not a fan of his either)? I have posted a number of items scattered throughout the forum over the last week yet if one were to look at the topic with the most hits they are on this one. Time to move on lest we look like a bunch of gossiping hens.
Can we get back to something positive?
Rick
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/17/2014 03:28 AM
Originally Posted By: stratocaster3
Doug,
I don't even collect SA's and I will tell you, I would have strayed in a heartbeat to get that one. Name your price. A cut above the rest of the herd.


I actually had it here for months and let the sales ad lapse, I was at $1,200 I believe and wasn't going to drop it. Tried it again half a year later and after a few weeks someone finally pulled the trigger and bought it... So it was available for quite some time. I could have done multiple reductions down to $800 or so and it would have sold in a flash, but I said "no reductions" and I meant it. Obviously probably could have gotten more. [I don't know if Pat remembers, I think I paid $900 or 1K for it myself, so wasn't exactly a windfall profit].

Originally Posted By: Tanker
We may want to start a separate thread on the SA as it is getting a little off topic. Don't want the original topic to fade away into an SA review. Ron


Well, we've got a ways to go to catch up to the 38 page monstrosity at WAF, if it is straying off topic at least its in a good direction, there are many good insights from some seasoned collectors not often discussed. Post I made which started the SA discussion was meant to veer it back on topic ,,, I see your point, but very rarely will a multi page thread stay exclusively on topic, just never happens.
Anyhow, unless someone has some specific, relevant insights into Craigs dealings and/or has any new info on this latest fiasco, there is probably not a whole lot more than can be added to it.
Posted By: Tanker Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/17/2014 03:32 AM
True,the intent was never to trash a person but to bring light to questionable business practices. In this case it happens to be CG.
As to continuing the thread, not much more can be added at this time. If more info becomes available, then we can add it.
I thought if there was to be a discussion on the nice SA , it would be better served on its own and not be attached to this mess.
Ron
Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner) Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/17/2014 04:16 AM
Originally Posted By: Gaspare
"However, be aware of what can be awaiting a whistle blower who does expose's on a 'Mega-Dealer'."

Ha, ha,,your kidding with that comment right?!


Gaspare, I wish I was, but I'm dead serious.
Textbook case in point:
There was an author (out of England, I believe) who was writing a book about all the scams in the militaria hobby over the decades. He was naming names, dates, the whole bit. It was going to be THE BIG revelation of how the hobby really works with some of the biggest, most respected, (and many not so respected) dealers in the hobby-past and present.
He and a partner also started a militaria forum called 'Dolos'. -exposing the Fakes-

Well they didn't last long. The author was warned of a pending suit if the book was released. It never saw the day of light. And the Dolos site was also shorty shut down.
Although the owners deny it was due to 'lawyers', I heard it was for exactly that reason.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Flive.autographmagazine.com%2Fforum%2Ftopics%2Fdolos-project-militaria-blog-refocuses-on-it-s-main-intent-maybe&ei=gnsBU4nMLY6IogSV44G4Dg&usg=AFQjCNEQH0EEwRSQiyn5oqPsZNx_utLRww&bvm=bv.61535280,d.cGU

-Serge



Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner) Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/17/2014 04:42 AM
Originally Posted By: Tanker
True,the intent was never to trash a person but to bring light to questionable business practices. In this case it happens to be CG.
As to continuing the thread, not much more can be added at this time. If more info becomes available, then we can add it.

Ron


Ron, I don't see anyone thrashing. what's thrashing?
Like Craig losing his tables at the SOS?
Is that news worthy? I don't know, however some would think so. I find it .....

Posted By: Tanker Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/17/2014 04:43 AM

Read Stratocaster3's post (#294846). I was responding to him. Ron



Originally Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner)
Originally Posted By: Tanker
True,the intent was never to trash a person but to bring light to questionable business practices. In this case it happens to be CG.
As to continuing the thread, not much more can be added at this time. If more info becomes available, then we can add it.

Ron


Ron, I don't see anyone thrashing. what's thrashing?
Like Craig losing his tables at the SOS?
Is that news worthy? I don't know, however some would think so. I find it .....


Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner) Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/17/2014 04:49 AM
Got it. Thanks.
Posted By: Gaspare Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/20/2014 05:24 AM
Serge,, if they're a thief and you can prove it with a case or 2 then state it. They are people like everyone else. Just because they might have Hitlers shirt, or some diamond studded badges etc. means nothing. None of them are better than you, I , and the rest of us....
Actually,,when there is a dealer that has sold fakes, sold pieces knowing they're fake [proven] then its a dis service not to let your fellow collectors know..
Posted By: Sepp Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/20/2014 07:50 AM
I AGREE 100% with Gaspare
Posted By: bushido Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/20/2014 05:36 PM
Hear hear Gaspare!
Posted By: DJDR Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/20/2014 10:53 PM
Of course I completely agree with Gaspare. Being "scared" of lawyers is hilarious by the way. Let it be known that average joe collector will not purchase from dishonest dealers. Build a good reputation and be honest.... Most would pay a premium for your items. Remember bad news travels lightning fast, being an accessory to the lie ( fake ) is just as bad in my book Being helpful to new collectors will go far as well. Being tired of helping new collectors is one thing. But commenting about it is another.

sharing information and mentoring to new collectors should be part of the hobby, especially for it to grow and continue on. Let's see how many young ( under 30) collectors are at the SOS this year.
Posted By: DAMAST Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/21/2014 08:10 PM
Well I find owning my own business lawyers can work with you and against you. And can just plain cost a ton of money to make sure you are covered.. (That is of course if you are like me and Serge and Have something to loose.)I personally do know some of the items and scams that are out there. What Serge has said about certain person or persons is not surprising as it is nothing new at all. It is just sad that it has soured many old and new collectors. (expert all knowing and seeing)has done. As a old English dagger Author Fred Stephens called them the (Cartel of Shysters) has hurt the collecting hobby. What Serge has said is just the very tip of a very nasty Ice berg. In my personal experience with Serge at shows he is always ready to help with any questions or will point collectors in the right direction to find the best answers... And you sure do not have to buy from him to get this treatment. I'm sure Serge is very frustrated as I get with this crap when openly inferior collectibles are being sold or auctioned as original or in the opinion of the all knowing and all seeing expert it is original so there for it is (if that makes any sense!!) So guys pull your heads out of the sand. Buy the item!!!! always!!! not the person or all the spin doctor crap behind it or him......Regards: James
I remember that **Dolos** project and the threats.
Had to be very careful when posting or commenting on that site,you would get all kinds of weird threats without really being a threat, if you know what I am trying to say. I thought Dolos was a good thing,
Posted By: JohnZ Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/21/2014 09:34 PM
All I can say is that when I have listened to the advice given me by James or by Serge, I have never gone wrong. I have, however, been burned a couple of times when I ignored their words.

So, my advice to all of you is... Listen to what James and Serge have to say, they do not have any dogs in this race and are only doing their best to help all of us.

The 'Shyster Cartel' is out there and it is more connected and way stronger than you can imagine. I know some very knowledgeable and respected dealer/collectors out there who are very reluctant to openly contradict some of the well know shysters.

John
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/21/2014 11:16 PM
That "dolos" thing was potentially a good thing, seemed to be run by some shady double dealing jokers who are likely reading this now - I guess the fact that it lasted all of 2 months and its membership barely exceeded a dozen speaks louder than words.
Posted By: Dave Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/22/2014 12:40 AM
Who actually owned or ran Dolos? Is that a big secret?
Posted By: stratocaster3 Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/22/2014 02:30 AM
John Z
Who are these knowledgeable dealer/ collectors you speak of that are reluctant to openly contradict the well known shysters?
Posted By: Dave Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/22/2014 03:21 AM
I agree. Either say who is behind this stuff / these frauds or don't post them at all mad

Serge ??
Posted By: JohnZ Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/22/2014 04:18 AM
Sorry, guys, but if I 'out' any of them, they will not give me any unbiased advice in the future.

I have had several experiences at shows, for example, where I am told certain things about daggers with the proviso that I not name names back to the owner.

I have also had situations where I told a dealer that I was going to show one of their items to another to get an opinion and I found that the first dealer called the second one to 'prime' what he had to say to me. I was there when the phone call came in... if I blabbed it all to you, would I be trusted in the future.. I think not.

Every dealer that I have dealt with has had at some point in time something dodgy on their table or their site. That is a fact. And, that isn't the issue here, it is how the dealer had dealt with these problems. I have returned items to the two Toms, for example, with no questions asked. I have had to fight with Craig and enlist support to get him to take back something that was generally considered to be wrong.

That is as far as I go here, Dave.

John
Posted By: DJDR Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/22/2014 05:10 AM
Sigh............Well this sure has cleared things up and filled me with confidence on buying at the SOS. What a drama.....
Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner) Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/22/2014 06:31 AM
The thread starter was 'Craig Gottlied expelled from WAF'. Here's the thread on WAF:
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=717482

Anyone can read it. also, anyone can do thread/post searches, except here, as many of the older ones don't exist anymore.
All it takes is a little bit of curiosity and a willingness to do a little research and you can make your own opinion rather than believing in someone elses. What can be better?

Some people (and their items) are always in controversy, while others are not. How do they actually handle returns? Do they refund right away 100%, or do they put you through the 'buddy' grinder? Do they have a 'restocking fee' ?
The guys with integrity always give a refund (unless there is a genuine issue, in which case they usually refund it anyway). They have no 'restocking' fee nor 'Store Credit' balony.

I have already stated my views and observations here of why I don't elect to go 'ALL IN' into the mud hole. Some may agree, some disagree. However, I won't be opening up the SS (Scams and Scandals) book of the hobby here, I have no desire to. Those that have a interest can get a good idea doing a little bit of keyboard work themselves. If a little bit of work is too much, well then...you really were not that interested anyway.

Now at this moment, I can't think of a better parting line than: You shall know them by the fruits they bare. smile

Oh, here's one more newbie hint: If a seller tells you their artifact is so beyond doubt original that it's "self-authenticating" - RUN!-DON'T WALK!

Serge
I think Serge has summed it up nicely.
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/22/2014 07:10 AM
Originally Posted By: Dave Hohaus
Who actually owned or ran Dolos? Is that a big secret?


As I recall, he/they tried to portray themselves as victims of heavy handed WAF admin, and vowed to set the record straight on numerous shady dealers and dealings tied into the WAF hierarchy and top dealers including CG ,, And yes, he/they tried to be as mysterious as possible as to their identity.
In my opinion the whole thing was a false flag, and the alleged righteous victims were exactly who they claimed to be against. I joined there and started to ruffle a few feathers with posts that what I thought were right in line with their claimed goals, I got pm's from the admin there issuing bland threats and also info that only someone who was a mod/admin at WAF would know ... That led me to post the whole thing threats and all right in the open, whereupon I was banned and all my posts were deleted, and the whole thing folded weeks later.
So I don't know what was up with that, whatever the case it didn't seem to go as planned by whoever started it.
Posted By: Dave Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/22/2014 05:02 PM
Here is the original thread on Dolos. Interesting reading:

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthread...2733#Post252733
Posted By: paulbear Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/22/2014 09:44 PM
FYI it folded after serious death threats where made towards a couple folks, one who had a family. From what I know a guy named PROSPER KEATING played some kind of role in its ending
Posted By: BOB C Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/22/2014 10:54 PM
you guys need to get off your computers and go to the shows.you will make friends there and you will help each other out.

then you will also get to meet the dealers that are there and you and your friends can decide what is good and what is bad.

thats called networking you just can't do that at home on the computer and learn who the bad guy are.you need to find out for your self by going to the shows.

dave you go to the max every year you know who most of the guys are that are selling fakes.if you don't then shame on you.

iv'e been on this forum for alot of years now and i read it almost every day.i don't say much because i have seen most of the members that new what they were talking about.

take flack from the guys that have been here two weeks and now the new expets. i guess it will be a year or so before i say anything again.
Bob...I agree. Networking and going to shows is a must if your serious about collecting. If I see a piece im not sure about. I will e mail or message some of the people I have meet and trust at shows or from the military sites.
Posted By: Rick Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/23/2014 06:17 AM
Although I still collect on a limited basis (I'm more into buying/selling 5.0 fox bodies)I will from time to time drop in and read the latest news. I've noticed this thread on Craig G. and have read some things about him on other forums. Has he been banned from GDC? I've clicked on his advertisement banner here and the link is inactive. Any one able to tell me why?
Rick...That link has never worked (or I could never get it to work). I don't think he has been banned but im not sure. If you go to advertising on the home page and click it, his banner is there and that link works.
Posted By: Dave Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/23/2014 05:42 PM
I look around MAX and the local shows with interest. It is always amazing the stuff that vets brought back. As far as my area of competence, which are SA/SS/NSKK model 1933 daggers. I see poorly maintained daggers, overly cleaned ones, buggered screws, badly repaired ones, etc, but no outright fakes. Those I see on internet sites like 3-2-1 or items posted here.

With Army/Navy/Luft/HJ, I can recognize the blatant fakes, but not much more. As the rest of the offerings like rings, cloth, headgear, flags, I would not have a clue unless it says "made in China".

Rick - Craig has not signed on since August of 2013. I will check out that link.

Dave
Posted By: Vern Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/23/2014 11:24 PM
Fixed the link wink
Posted By: Dow Cross Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/24/2014 10:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Skynyrd
Originally Posted By: Dave Hohaus
Who actually owned or ran Dolos? Is that a big secret?


As I recall, he/they tried to portray themselves as victims of heavy handed WAF admin, and vowed to set the record straight on numerous shady dealers and dealings tied into the WAF hierarchy and top dealers including CG ,, And yes, he/they tried to be as mysterious as possible as to their identity.
In my opinion the whole thing was a false flag, and the alleged righteous victims were exactly who they claimed to be against. I joined there and started to ruffle a few feathers with posts that what I thought were right in line with their claimed goals, I got pm's from the admin there issuing bland threats and also info that only someone who was a mod/admin at WAF would know ... That led me to post the whole thing threats and all right in the open, whereupon I was banned and all my posts were deleted, and the whole thing folded weeks later.
So I don't know what was up with that, whatever the case it didn't seem to go as planned by whoever started it.

Interesting FYI Crag told me he notified WAF Admin that he was resigning their. And WAF decided to up him one by publicly saying he was expelled.
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/24/2014 11:42 PM
Lol, "You can't quit ! ,, Why not ? ,, Because YOU'RE FIRED !"

Seems to me that he will be better off in the long run without the sustained drama that the mention of his name attracts there, aside from a small clique of fanboys he is thoroughly tarnished ,,, But that was always balanced out against his apparent lust for attention, only he knows if it will be a good tradeoff.
Posted By: Dave Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/25/2014 12:20 AM
Someone should take and post pictures of his SOS tables.

At MAX, he had one of those big $$ islands in the main concourse but as of Saturday noon I did not see any display cases.
Posted By: Gaspare Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/25/2014 05:20 AM
he usually has a big set up at the SOS...

Well he always wanted to be one of the big boys [dealers] . Do any of you see ANY of the big dealers participate on any of the forums?? , NO.

This is my own personal theory:

They are not on the forums because they offer so many items they can't possibly authenticate them all, don't care anymore and / or ,,eventually the well gets low and they go to the dark side.
Whats that?!,,that's occasionally offering excellent fakes. IF they get caught they talk their way out or put the blame on a scapegoat.
IF they stay on the forums they would get cut to ribbons , so its better to not participate at all...
Posted By: Mac 66 Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/25/2014 03:33 PM
Originally Posted By: Gaspare
he usually has a big set up at the SOS...

Well he always wanted to be one of the big boys [dealers] . Do any of you see ANY of the big dealers participate on any of the forums?? , NO.

This is my own personal theory:

They are not on the forums because they offer so many items they can't possibly authenticate them all, don't care anymore and / or ,,eventually the well gets low and they go to the dark side.
Whats that?!,,that's occasionally offering excellent fakes. IF they get caught they talk their way out or put the blame on a scapegoat.
IF they stay on the forums they would get cut to ribbons , so its better to not participate at all...





Well said Gaspare !!
Posted By: patrice Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/25/2014 03:48 PM
Will second that !
Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner) Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/25/2014 06:52 PM
I concur with Gaspare's statement.

The reality is if your just amount making the most money you can in the militaria business, it's in the very high-end fakes. Diamond awards, bird-head daggers, Damascus anything, Hitler this and a Himmler that.
Let's face it Craig has had a credibility issue with many veteran collectors for years. His questionable finds became more rarer than the last one, and he was getting chewed up on almost everyone one. Be it a Mengele's passport or a Damascus SS degen, etc. etc.
The heat got so much that it was Craig who bailed out of the forums because they were becoming 'bad for 'business'.

WAF management, just to make sure he wouldn't be back...slammed the door hard behind him with a 'expulsion'. However it's true, The History Hunter didn't need any of this anymore, and it just couldn't get explained away a umpteenth time.

According to Craig; the '20 bullies' made him leave. Really? HA ! laugh

Here is Craig's last post on WAF. In his own words.

---------------

>>"

When I started Germandaggers.com in 1999 (and shortly thereafter, became one of the earlier members of WAF), I had a vision to create (and in the case of WAF) participate in a community of dealers and collectors who could co-exist to mutual benefit … sharing knowledge and experience for the good of the hobby, while bringing to light sellers (collectors and dealers) who knowingly and consistently sold fakes outside the boundaries of honest mistakes. Along the way, I have owned some great pieces, made a lot of money, made many friends, but many enemies. Bruce Petrin, Brant Murphy ... people that newbies here won't ever know or remember.


Looking back more than 13 years, I can tell you having been on all sides, I believe a few apples have finally begun to spoil it for me. In my view forums started small (and manageable) but grew so large that effective FREE moderation became challenging. God bless the moderators who give their free time and do their best, but there is only so much one can do, and I understand that.


When a dealer like myself who has a solid record of selling THOUSANDS of authentic artifacts over more than a decade of full-time business, who has a rock-solid guarantee, (mixed in with a few items that were questioned by some, but NEVER ever sold to or retained by a collector) can be pushed around by a room filled with a small but loud contingent of bullies, and then be called out for being absent from the discussion for a few days (in this case, due to sickness and having just sold over 200 artifacts in one days) … the forum begins to resemble an elementary school playground. Nobody will ever remember the collector I tracked down about a "rounder" Knight's Cross years after they were proven questionable, in order to give a refund plus interest. They'll only remember the fiasco surrounding a Oakleaf that was deemed authentic by every expert, but called out by a few "forum Jockeys" as questionable.


I have asked myself this afternoon whether it’s worthwhile to continue to take the abuse, innuendo, anonymous bravado, “computer courage,” rudeness, and childish, misdirected wit (admittedly, amidst a bunch of good guys, most of whom are too busy to involve themselves with threads like this), or just bow out like just about EVERY full-time dealer (and many, but certainly not all, serious collectors) has. Well, I can honestly say, that when it’s a choice between a) spending extra quality time with my family, picking my son up from school without lingering feelings of anger and resentment, and enjoying life … while at the same time providing reliable service to the collector, or b) running back to the forum every 10 seconds to answer one of 20 bullies in the room, the choice is abundantly clear … I choose the former." <<
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/25/2014 10:33 PM
Craig has some valid points, there are far too many blowhards on the internet and often a pack mentality does tend to prevail in heated threads ,,, Though of course, he brought much of it on himself.
If he really feels that way then he should be a happy camper, damage is more to his ego than anything else.
Posted By: Dave Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/25/2014 11:49 PM
Doug,

You are correct about Craig's valid points. My observation after 13½ years here is that there is a core of mostly anonymous guys here and other on forums who like to attack dealers or sometimes successful collectors. This ties in with Gaspare's post above.


Gaspare,
When the GDC started, many forums moderated by well known dealers. Most of the dealers left by the end of 2001, but not for the reason you suggest. They left because of the anonymous turkeys who felt they had to sabotage or discredit everything these guys said. It was not worth the dealers time and reputation to argue with them. They were gone by the time you signed up in mid-2002, so you did not get to see this as it happened.

Dave
I read Craig's reply and all I can say and offer is this. I liked Craig. I did good business with him. I purchased from him. Not in the six figures but in the high teens, which was more than I EVER spent with those dealers whom I respected. Chuck Scaglione, John Casino, Paul Hogle, Bill Shea, Gerard Stezelberger, Bob Iqbal, Tom Johnson, Bruce Hermann, Peter Whammond, Martin Stiles. These are some of the GOOD guys in my opinion. I know them all, have dealt with them all, have had some in my home and have been in some of their homes. Never a bad deal. I know some will have their detractors but as long as we are "friends" and do good business I do not entertain the gossip. I was this way with Craig..I liked him. I sold him some "good stuff" and Craig was never cheap and always paid...Then there were three "purchases" made by me in a row that were less than what they were advertised to be. These left me feeling a little awkward but Craig always made good. Then there was the "ring fiasco" that, in my opinion could have been handled so much better. Suddenly I became the "bad guy" I started to question everything and listened to my "collector and dealer friends" who brought me up to speed on the state of Craig's reputation. I am sorry that things went this way as I never like having a falling out with someone with whom I once was "friendly" I couldn't count Craig as a friend but I did like him. Now I don't factor as a meaningful purchaser in the over all realm of things but every collector who is a customer should be treated decently. All of the fellows that I have mentioned have both sold to me and purchased from me. I am not a dealer but at 48 have been active in the German hobby since 1982 when I first began selling and buying. I have sold to 100s of collectors in Europe, Canada and within the US.I have never had one somplaint or had one item returned, even though I sell everything with a full unconditional guarantee!!!! I got beaten up on this forum for what one seller said....I backed out of a deal. This was untrue but Dave, you made a determination based on one comment and on not even knowing me!!!! and my reputation was attacked!!! Craig has an extensive history now....I will not attack him or jump on the "bash Craig bandwagon", but I will not feel empathy or sympathy. He made his bed and has no one to blame but himself. Even his last posting smacks of self pity and arrogance and seems to blame everyone else. It is so much easier to say that you made a mistake.. It is too bad that one of the guys that we thought would bring a breath of fresh air to the hobby seems to have done just the opposite. Cheers Ryan S
There are still some big name dealers that are members of or who post on various forums. Ron Weinand comes to mind here on GDC. Ron is a seasoned dealer/collector, who, in my opinion does not hide or run from controversial comments made by the collecting community. Craig and Houston may not post anymore or moderate, I don't know, but they have both been accused of some shady business and both have posted similar responses. People make mistakes. Peter Whammond on Collectors Guild has made mistakes. I remember an Allgemeine mantel brought to my home that was purchased for nearly $10,000 that turned out to be totally fake. I exposed it and Derek Chapman, who was also present at my home seconded it. Daryl Pajot, ex GDC member was also present and agreed. Peter was humble and thanked us for the info. He wants to learn. He is not arrogant nor did he go on the attack. Money cheerfully refunded. The collector/customer was not called "nuts" or cursed at or other wise made to feel it was his fault. If you are an honest dealer you will survive. Your reputation may not survive un scathed but your moral character will!!!! One thing I have learned that no matter how decent and reputable the dealer,there is always someone in this hobby that has a negative story or thing to say, deserved or otherwise.It is all in how one deals with and responds to these "challenges" that matters. cheers, Ryan
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/26/2014 02:04 AM
Originally Posted By: Dave Hohaus
Doug,

You are correct about Craig's valid points. My observation after 13½ years here is that there is a core of mostly anonymous guys here and other on forums who like to attack dealers or sometimes successful collectors. This ties in with Gaspare's post above.

Dave


That is true, and you no doubt have seen more than me and most others over the years, but the flip side of that is often they do bring up valid points themselves that otherwise would not get addressed, anonymous or not ,, Then of course, other times they have a vindictive mentality and bring into question any move their target may make, becomes stalkers if you will..
As far as the anonymous thing, yeah I guess it can be a factor when someone can slam someone else without any fear of repercussions to themselves in real life, a built up online persona can be a powerful thing.
I never thought much about it myself, when I first started messing around on the internet in the late 90's it was the norm to use nym's, almost no one posted under their real name ,,,And that habit stuck, never crossed my mind to have a screen name of "Doug Kramer" ,,, I like Lynyrd Skynyrd so that worked for me, but it wasn't out of some perceived fear that I chose a goofy nym, just force of habit.

We really saw the wild west of forums I think, things have settled down a bit, and many forums now require a serious if not an identifying name, and I agree with that trend.
I wouldn't say anything on a forum that I wouldn't say to someone face to face and I expect the same, when I get the feeling that someone is engaging in anonymous internet bravado it highly annoys me ,, And for a guy like Craig, that must go 10x. I don't feel sorry for the guy at all, but I never thought he was all bad with a black heart - He is a product of his yesterdays like anyone else, and sometimes those catch up with you.
Posted By: DJDR Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/26/2014 03:31 AM
It is still his source of income, so I'm sure he will be back around. I'm looking forward to going to the SOS. I can't wait to see everybody's great collections. I hope Craig is there. I will look at his collection just as much as I will look at everybody else's. Real or fake, I still enjoy the history of the items. A fake hat, dagger, whatever. Just like going to the wax museum. It's not Elvis, but made to look just like the real thing. With my knowledge, everything is going to look real....

Of course I won't be buying a thing. ( I will be the big guy taking as many pictures as possible ( as long as the collectors/dealers allow). Until I put in many years of studying what is real and what is fake, I will enjoy looking at repros and authentic items. Of course the real ones do bring more excitement on who May have owned it, where it has been etc....rather than getting caught up with the negativity and garbage, this will be like going to a WWII , Third Reich, etc.. "Smithsonian"
Posted By: WW2-Collector Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/26/2014 04:05 AM
Originally Posted By: DJDR
It is still his source of income, so I'm sure he will be back around. I'm looking forward to going to the SOS. I can't wait to see everybody's great collections. I hope Craig is there. I will look at his collection just as much as I will look at everybody else's. Real or fake, I still enjoy the history of the items. A fake hat, dagger, whatever. Just like going to the wax museum. It's not Elvis, but made to look just like the real thing. With my knowledge, everything is going to look real....

Of course I won't be buying a thing. ( I will be the big guy taking as many pictures as possible ( as long as the collectors/dealers allow). Until I put in many years of studying what is real and what is fake, I will enjoy looking at repros and authentic items. Of course the real ones do bring more excitement on who May have owned it, where it has been etc....rather than getting caught up with the negativity and garbage, this will be like going to a WWII , Third Reich, etc.. "Smithsonian"


I wouldn’t expect to see to many collections the merchandise brought is for sale. Sure a guy may bring a piece or two for show and tell but I don’t know any one who displays their collection at the SOS. But don’t be disappointed you will see plenty of great stuff good and bad it’s the super bowl of shows! You guys have a safe trip and see you at the show.
Posted By: Gaspare Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/26/2014 07:01 AM


Dave , the site has had a few problems over the years. Registered 2002?,,was on a few years before that,,Lets see,,when I came on Gary Woods and Bob Hritz were the SS Mods, then Bob left and we had Tony Barto! And of course Donny Boyle was the Honor Ring Mod..

Anyway,,,yes your right Mods/Dealers were different back then. So was our hobby too.

It evolved from the Mods being the last [and only] word. Even though just supposed to be a moderator they were also expected to be the experts! , and most were!

Most mods/dealers were infallible, respected! , Man what a difference between now and back then..

Back then,,they freely gave good advice participated, authenticated ,etc. Now,,,defensive, non participants with the only advice is to buy their self authenticating items! crazy wink
Posted By: Dave Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/26/2014 03:27 PM
And just who are you talking about, Gaspare?
Posted By: Jim W Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/26/2014 05:31 PM
good question Dave.

I do not know many moderators, but I know I do not have but a handful of items for sale on a different web site and I certainly do not refer people there. I do not think I have ever seen Wotan offer anything for sale or do anything but give honest advice and then take abuse for it. Which Dave hit upon and is the real stated reason moderators left. They were tired of telling newbies the truth then suffering insults.

But, Dave, Gaspere has been promoting a book he has written. I am not sure if Gaspere is setting himself up as the all knowing guru of rings, that is up to him to state.

But, if you want to insult every moderator on this web site, Gaspere, then maybe it is time to light the torches and get the pitch fork out.

Is there anyone on these boards that is pushing their items?
Posted By: Dave Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/26/2014 10:09 PM
Exactly, Jim.

I encourage authors of new books, whether Moderator, Premium Member or not, to post their books including a sales message here. I see it as a service to the Community and a small reward for their work. Ron Weinand posted his NPEA tome here.

A few mods have a link built into their signature like WWII-Collector or Ross Kelbaugh and all mods get to post free sales ads as compensation for their help.

Gaspare said " Now,,,defensive, non participants with the only advice is to buy their self authenticating items!". He is right that a few have not shown up in a while but I am going to fix that soon.

Meantime, Gaspare, tell me who you have in mind.

Dave
Posted By: Mikee Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/26/2014 10:29 PM
Dave,

All I can say is, thank you for all your hard work and keeping this site moving forward. I've only had great experiences here with moderators and collectors. This is the best site I've had the privilege to be a part of. Thank you.
Posted By: Jim W Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/26/2014 10:53 PM
I get to post free for sale adds? When did that start?

It does not really matter as I have long been a premium member, but it would be nice to know these things.

Put this out to the collecting community and you might have a lot of volunteers for moderator jobs.
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/26/2014 11:28 PM
Not attempting to speak for G but it would seem to me that the phrase "self authenticating " narrows it down to 1 person.
Posted By: Dave Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/27/2014 12:09 AM
Jim,

2-3 years at least, probably more. I think it goes back to the start of the Premium Member and For Sales areas.

Dave
Posted By: Vern Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/27/2014 01:04 AM
Moderators have always been able to post to the GDC Bazaar (and so can dealers with Banner ads). It's been that way for years and that information was sent to all mods via email when we set those forums up originally.
Posted By: Gaspare Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/27/2014 05:36 AM
Jim, I'm not promoting anything. I've had several emails asking IF I'm going to resume writing after losing my home twice.. All I've done was to answer them on my forum.. I'm not claiming to be an expert on anything. Over the last 30 years I've collected a certain area or Nazi regalia. I've got a bunch of period documentation, period photos and advertisements and help from around the world. When I'm done I'm thinking of publishing it to help like collectors from being ripped off,and maybe other might find of interest.,simple as that.

Dave, I belong to 5 forums. I didn't mention anything about this forum did I. I'm not writing about anyone exactly as I'm lumping mods and dealers together.. But yes, I did use a quote from a dealer and one time Mod/Admin here.

All I'm saying that Mod or Dealer or even member,,that after they take enough heat,have customers be unhappy, bad return experiences,etc. they eventually stop posting....
Posted By: BAMA Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/27/2014 07:46 PM
The hobby has been full of crooks and fakes since the get go. It all started in May of 45 and it's still wide open. What's good or bad, who knows? You can't even trust what comes from the vet much less the dealer. Sure, they may offer a 100% money back guarantee but what do they loose. The buyer has to find out it's fake first, then call the dealer, most times argue with the dealer, pay return postage etc., etc.
Posted By: stratocaster3 Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/28/2014 01:53 AM
I assume therefore Bama per your post, you are not in the hobby due to the concerns you raised? smile
Rick
Posted By: kyles bullets Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/28/2014 03:21 AM
You can tell if something is original when comparing to an original so you can tell if something from a vet is original as well as a dealer....
Posted By: BAMA Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/28/2014 05:42 PM
I'm still here and I'm still collecting! It's kind of like Harley-Davidson the company ******** and the bikes still break down but I love em. I'm 55 and have been collecting since childhood. My Father gave me the Japanese sword he brought home and my Uncle send me a large Nazi flag he got in Normandy with the Big Red One. So it's not hard for me to love the hobby but hate the crooks and fakes. So KB how do you know an original is original? The Germans were putting whatever parts they had left together for souvenir sales before the war was even over. I've looked at many mismatched items over the years that the vet claimed he picked up just that way and he may have. SS daggers hanging on Luftwaffe combat belts etc., etc. I always thought the blade on my Fathers sword was bright and shiny until we were talking about getting some bike parts chromed and he said he had the sword plated when he got home from the war. Just last year I bought what looked like a SS Officer degen from the family of a deceased vet. When I got there they brought out and WKC Army sword and a Alcoso Police Officer degen. The Police Officer had an original SS Officer degen rune button where the eagle should have been. I have never seen what I believe is a true 1936 model Alcoso SS degen and I don't think they made them. It was obvious that someone had tried to stick the round SS button in an eagle hole. You could still see where the wings were. So did the family put it in there? They said they had not. Did the vet? Did he find it that way? Who knows? Is it original pre May 45? Who knows?
Posted By: kyles bullets Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 02/28/2014 09:57 PM
This is what gives the challenge if collecting. If there were no fakes it would be a bit boring after time and many would start collecting. With fakes, it gives the challenge but you just have to be careful. As far as things made up after the war, I don't consider them all fakes if they were within a certain amount of time. They are still original parts and are a unique part of history. As far as comparing to originals, it would be impossible without older collectors who collected before the modern fakes.... So older collectors are a a good source (most of the time) as if they had seen something at that time and can confirm it existed or they had seen one can help come par to an original
Posted By: Dow Cross Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 03/28/2014 08:36 PM
The show continues on WAF and gunboards.
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?354467-Craig-Gottlieb-now-a-Grave-Digger-Nat-Geo-Getting-Pounded!!!!&p=2930374#post2930374
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 03/29/2014 07:16 AM
The man is positively ghoulish, I do believe he would dig up and sell his grannies knickers if he could turn a buck on it.
Posted By: the russian Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 03/29/2014 09:47 PM
Skynyrd: Unfortunately he already has !!!
Posted By: paulbear Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 03/29/2014 09:48 PM
well it appears he has hit a new low guys as he is now on a NAT GEO show digging up war graves, see link below

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...l#ixzz2xLAKI84W
Posted By: Jim W Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 03/29/2014 11:39 PM
I like this comment the best.

"One of the program's presenters, Craig Gottlieb, is a dealer in Nazi memorabilia, and who is quoted on the National Geographic site as saying: ‘I feel that by selling things that are Nazi related and for lots of money, I’m preserving a part of history that museums don’t want to bother with."".

I remember when people posted photos here of "dug" relics and were labeled grave robbers. But now they are saviors of history.

Go figure.
Posted By: Dave Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 03/29/2014 11:41 PM
Jim,

They are still grave robbers.
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 03/30/2014 05:34 AM
Whatever spin they try to put on it, they are intruding on the final resting place of a fallen solider in a very unprofessional manner and should be roundly condemned by anyone with a shred of decency.
Most of us here who have some inkling of what CG is about makes it that much worse ,,, I am positive that if one of the bones he pulled out had a TK ring he would pocket it in a heartbeat.

Here is he fondling one of his captured skulls, I think this is where he was alleged to have cried on camera.


Posted By: ANDREW CARTER Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 03/31/2014 12:18 AM
and yet Craig still advertises on this site
Posted By: paulbear Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/01/2014 04:21 AM
some further info on this travesty

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/artsbeat...=blogs&_r=0
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/01/2014 06:30 AM
Glad they pulled it, trivializing fallen soldiers and treating their remains with such disrespect is no laughing matter, I am surprised that they would have lent their name to such a ghoulish concept anyhow.
It would appear that they were counting on most people not having a problem with Nazis being desecrated, little did they know that most men take offense to any war grave being disturbed in such a tacky & sensationalized fashion.
Shame on Craig once again - I shudder to think of what his next gimmick is going to be.
Posted By: Dow Cross Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/01/2014 05:15 PM
National Geographic also said that none of the items dug up during filming would be sold but instead would be donated to war museums. The critics however found a posting on a military collectors’ online forum in which Mr. Gottlieb described locating a Latvian war helmet in June and preparing it for sale.

Interesting thing of them to note. Apparently the New York Times reads Wehrmacht Awards.


http://www.heritagedaily.com/2014/03...diggers/102632

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Posted By: Grumpy Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/01/2014 07:48 PM
Let the dead rest. Any relics dug up could not be in the best of condition anyway, with perhaps few exceptions, such as those made of aluminum. I don't know what prompted NG to pursue such a macabre course. For Gottlieb, Insuspect it was for publicity and an attempt to establish himself as an esteemed expert for future ventures.
Posted By: Landser Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/01/2014 11:25 PM
Anyone with even a modicum of decency can only view this with the utter contempt it deserves. There are plenty of scum grave robbing the eastern battle sites but this is about as distasteful as it is possible to get. I find it highly offensive and will leave it there.
Posted By: the russian Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/03/2014 03:36 PM
I believe the time has come to ban Craig Gottlieb from this site so as to distance ourselves from him and his actions that can only bring further disgrace for our hobby.
Posted By: Sepp Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/03/2014 03:45 PM
+1 the russian...I'm sure he would not care

Sepp
Posted By: Jim W Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/03/2014 04:19 PM
I have to agree with both the Russian and Sepp. As soon as I read his statements and saw this new endeavor, I believed we need to dis associate ourselves from Craig. Once the press makes the connection here, who knows what will happen.

Sepp is correct, Craig has moved on. In a direction we don't like. I do not believe this forum matters to him anymore.

Perhaps Vern could talk to him about withdrawing for the good of the forum.
Posted By: Vern Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/03/2014 04:27 PM
Banner has been removed.
Posted By: Mikee Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/03/2014 05:42 PM
Searching for and locating sites of fallen soldiers is okay as long as these sites are brought to the attention of the appropriate authorities for interment. You just can't go digging them up at your leisure. Profit and greed is the only reason I see. Although,I wouldn't mind hearing CG excuse. What about the others involvement and what's there reasoning. What do metal detectors hunt for? Buried treasure!
Posted By: the russian Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/03/2014 09:28 PM
Thank you Vern, always found you to be a man of principle and honesty.
Posted By: Sepp Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/04/2014 02:05 PM
Thank You Vern...smart move...CG what a tool

Sepp
Posted By: Gaspare Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/04/2014 02:56 PM
Vern , while I've been on the side of diggers in the past Craigs reason wasn't survival it was in search of fame and fortune.
This topic though isn't about diggers etc. it is about CG and his made up ******** and his lies. It takes a while but collectors get tired of it and even though well protected at WAF in the past you just can't go against a big majority of members.
As far as here,,its a real shame. From what I remember it was you Vern and him that got this place going many years ago. It's amazing the journey he's taken and where's he's ended up. He won't care much about the bannings and no matter how fucked up he is there will be customers that buy from him when he gets the piece they're looking for and that's the real shame...
Thanks for taking a stand Vern..
Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner) Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/04/2014 04:41 PM
So many say he is 'banned' from GDC, but it seems it's not so. Only his banner add was removed.
Posted By: patrice Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/04/2014 05:39 PM
Certainly not banned from the advertising section. sleep
Posted By: paulbear Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/04/2014 07:01 PM
I am sure we will get an explanation as this seems very odd
Posted By: timboo Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/04/2014 07:11 PM
Now if Pawn Stars would just can him, I'd start watching the show again.
Posted By: Jim W Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/04/2014 08:39 PM
I love the way Rick always says that 3rd Reich items have bad karma and he won't deal with them, but then he deals with a guy who is desecrating Nazi graves.

Go figure.
Posted By: Tanker Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/04/2014 09:00 PM
Well said!
Ron


Originally Posted By: Jim W
I love the way Rick always says that 3rd Reich items have bad karma and he won't deal with them, but then he deals with a guy who is desecrating Nazi graves.

Go figure.
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/04/2014 10:14 PM
Is he still on pawn stars, haven't watched the show in quite a while, not much of a TV guy and it seems every time its on it is a rerun.
I know they have other firearm/militaria "experts" who "know everything that there is to know" about guns ect, that must really get Craigs goat to have competition.
The whole thing is such an obvious setup from start to finish, its lost its appeal for me. You already know people just don't walk in off the street and luck out and get on camera, everything they say and do is pre planned and choreographed. A far cry from any "reality" if you ask me. Can't blame CG for using it as a stepping stone, they have had what 2 or 3 spinoffs already from their "experts" ,, But the road he is on now is a strange one, without a moral compass there is no telling which way he'll go next.
Posted By: Dave Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/05/2014 02:40 AM
Banner removed, but not banned.

Update, Craig had not been on since August last year but dropped by for a look on March 30 ... 5 days ago.
Posted By: bushido Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/05/2014 06:36 PM
Disaster Capitalism is what it all sounds like. ~ Ian
Posted By: Larry C Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/05/2014 10:04 PM
He needs to focus on what is on his plate,, right in front of him at the moment...picking apples by reading forum threads of who is saying what...should not be a top priority. His current issues at hand did not begin on any forum.
Posted By: Rick Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/06/2014 05:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Tanker
Well said!
Ron


Originally Posted By: Jim W
I love the way Rick always says that 3rd Reich items have bad karma and he won't deal with them, but then he deals with a guy who is desecrating Nazi graves.

Go figure.


I always love how Rick says that Nazi stuff "gives him he creeps" but I'll bet he calls CG and gives him the information on the owner and CG will give him a cut of the profits. Pawn Stars ******** anyway!
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/06/2014 07:51 PM
I have the feeling Rick isn't "creeped out" by Nazi stuff at all, rather he is creeped out by the prospect of the usual suspects starting a smear campaign against the show were he to buy and sell Nazi merchandise - Probably not a bad decision, if they could bend yahoo & ebay to their will they could easily do the same to pawn stars.
Saying that he won't deal in Nazi merchandise on the basis of some murky, unexplained ethical reasons is just a cheap way to get himself props from the PC crowd without making himself look too much like a lying hypocrite with the majority of viewers who know damn well he'd turn a profit on just about anything.
Why then would he associate the show with the likes of CG ? I doubt if 1 viewer out of 10,000 knows anything more about CG than they do of any of the other "experts", and there is no good way to find out unless you yourself are a collector.
Posted By: Tiberius Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/09/2014 04:15 AM
An area of particular interest to me (and my hope is to be able to incorporate this into my professional career) is researching the protection, repatriation, and looting/destruction of cultural heritage sites and artifacts.

I normally don't read this particular subforum but I only just today came across articles in the blogs I frequent about this contemptible - and thank God canceled! - television venture.

I can tell you though that at least one of these cultural preservation watchdog sites has sourced posts made by CG here on GDF. Link: http://conflictantiquities.wordpress.com...craig-gottlieb/

This excerpt comes from one of a series of articles written by Sam Hardy at the Conflict Antiquities blog about the whole CG and National Geographic scandal.:

Quote:
On the 18th of February 2014, Gottlieb posted a ‘ground found digged out [sic]‘ ring in the German Daggers forum, which the ‘owner [looter and seller]‘ had found in a battlefield near Szczecin in Poland. He continued to ‘find… new and new to buy’ antiquities in Poland at least up until the 6th of March.


The original text of the article includes links directly to Craig's GDC posts from which his quotes are taken.

So, I agree that GDC should and really needs to take steps to condemn CG's actions, and make it clear that this forum and its members in no way support or associate with such an unscrupulous individual.

T.
Posted By: Sepp Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/09/2014 03:27 PM
Tiberius...there is not one post on GD.com that agrees with what that Jerk CG is doing.

Sepp
Posted By: Tiberius Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/09/2014 11:43 PM
Apologies, Sepp. I am confident that everyone on this forum thoroughly condemns CG's actions, and my post was not intended to imply that anyone here supports him.

I'm just pointing out that the blogger links to items posted by CG on this forum. These items are presented as further evidence of CG's questionable activities, especially his ability to find 'ground dug' objects; or at least deal with battlefield looters. When taken in conjunction with the article describing and condemning the TV show in question, it just might give the impression to outsiders that this site condones his unethical conduct.

The links provided by the blogger are to the posts below:

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=294897#Post294897

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=295308#Post295308

That being said, I leave any further actions to your discretion, and again I apologize for any confusion or offense I may have caused.
Posted By: WW2-Collector Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/10/2014 12:00 AM
Tiberius those links are not posts by Craig Gottlieb but another member……
Posted By: Tiberius Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/10/2014 12:14 AM
In that case, the blogger is mistaking GD member 'Gottlieb' as CG.

I'll bow out of this thread, then, since I seem to have gotten so many things wrong. Apologies and carry on.
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/10/2014 02:54 AM
Easily understandable oversight, good you pointed it out and perhaps the blogger will make the necessary corrections.

I don't think ground dug relics should be condemned carte blanche at all ... I am an avid metal detectorist and have been for around 8 years. Searching for lost history and valuables is fascinating and consuming. I don't live in an area likely to have any war dead, but if I did that would be something I would have to deal with. I would like to think that I would handle it in a professional, respectful manner if I came across a grave site, and I'm sure I would.
The dealing is ground dug military relics I also think should not be wholly condemned. No way to determine ratios, but I think its safe to say a fair portion or relics were not dug in proximity to a pile of bones, many were lost/dumped/discarded and have no connection to any disrespect for a fallen soldier.
Some are, these matters should be taken on a case by case basis.
Posted By: mrfabulous Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/10/2014 01:11 PM
You will not see Nazi stuff on Antiques Roadshow either.
Which is a kinda good thing.
Who wants some clown saying that dress bayonet(plain blade) is worth $1000.00 !!
Posted By: BAMA Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/11/2014 03:52 PM
Is the sin of being a digger any worse than paying some poor old grannie pennies on the dollar for her late husband’s war souvenirs in a “motel buy”?
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/11/2014 04:44 PM
Originally Posted By: BAMA
Is the sin of being a digger any worse than paying some poor old grannie pennies on the dollar for her late husband’s war souvenirs in a “motel buy”?


I think that carelessly pillaging a fallen soldiers grave is worse than lowballing a granny on Nazi relics, yes.
I don't even see how the 2 are remotely comparable other than they both require someone with a lack of scruples. If someone accepts a ridiculously low offer on anything, thats on them.
Posted By: Jim W Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/11/2014 05:09 PM
Bama's point is that in the one case the digger is robbing the grave and in the second case the buyer is robbing both the grave and the widow.

However, their comparison is with the lack of scruples and morals.

Question, How is a widow suppose to know the value of the husbands war trophies unless someone tells her. If a trusting widow believes the buyer as to the real value, are you really going to blame the widow.
Posted By: Ronald Weinand Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/12/2014 01:01 AM
Jim, then the answer is what's our education worth, isn't it?
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/12/2014 02:42 AM
Carelessly ransacking a war grave site with the pretext of "digging for history" is particularly morbid and unethical, much more so than lowballing a granny.
Most grannies, by definition, have sons and grandsons whom they could in most cases call to work out an appraisal. With the advent of the internet, finding a ballpark value is easy even for a complete novice, so there is not much excuse to let yourself get swindled.
Both have greed as the prime motivating factor, both takes a slimeball to pull off, but the comparison ends there IMO.
Posted By: Jim W Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/12/2014 03:25 AM
Ron, I am not sure what your answer means, but to clarify my thoughts on Hotel buys: I think hotel buys are both legitimate and a good way to bring relics to the surface. If a buyer offers 50% of the retail value, I think that is a fair offer. It is a business. That is where the legitimate buyer and his or her education comes into it. And the 50% is just an estimate. Most businesses have a similar cost of goods.

This is different than the discussion point. It is when the buyer offers the trusting widow 10 cents on the dollar and then brags about it where I see an issue.
Posted By: Tanker Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/12/2014 10:25 PM
I agree with Jim W.
I also hate to see when folks get on the forum and brag how they "scored or snagged" a collectable. I just hate those phrases. Nothing wrong with being proud of purchase but just don't over brag how you " got over" on someone! Strictly my opinion only. Ron


Originally Posted By: Jim W
Ron, I am not sure what your answer means, but to clarify my thoughts on Hotel buys: I think hotel buys are both legitimate and a good way to bring relics to the surface. If a buyer offers 50% of the retail value, I think that is a fair offer. It is a business. That is where the legitimate buyer and his or her education comes into it. And the 50% is just an estimate. Most businesses have a similar cost of goods.

This is different than the discussion point. It is when the buyer offers the trusting widow 10 cents on the dollar and then brags about it where I see an issue.



Posted By: Gaspare Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/13/2014 06:50 AM

2 things on diggers:

One,,Morals?,,. Do you think the Ukrainian whos had their grandparents tortured ,then hung, homes or complete village burned down. Had family members dragged away for slave labor, some never to be seen again,,thinks about grave robbing / battle field digs being wrong?!?

Two, In the early to mid 1990s. It was the professional diggers who dug from maps, grids. Recorded dog tags, and were respectful to the remains. If it wasn't for them many 100s of German families wouldn't know about their MIA family members resting spot.

Saw a bit on CGs digging party.. Ignorant , greed driven, despicable!
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/13/2014 08:25 PM
Gaspare, actual Ukrainians or any relative of someone who suffered/died via German aggression might get more of a pass, might not be expected to show respect for the remains of a fallen German soldier - But if they are so repulsed and aggrieved after all of these years, I would also expect them not to want to greedily reap a profit from relics of the evil exterminators, really tough to have it both ways here. Also, the same logic should apply to Stalins mass killers, who I understand racked up a head count not far off from Hitlers [probably much more in Ukraine].
CG does in fact use a variation of this logic in his activities, he almost always nonchalantly brings up his Jewish ancestry in any press releases - As if greed and self promotion aren't any factors in his pursuits, but rather subtle revenge.

Your 2nd point, obviously not many would have any problem with a professional, respectful dig. It was the over the top sensationalism, starting with the very title of the proposed show, that made waves - And Craig carelessly yanking bones out of the ground just added to the disdain.
Posted By: Dow Cross Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/14/2014 12:59 AM
(CG does in fact use a variation of this logic in his activities, he almost always nonchalantly brings up his Jewish ancestry in any press releases - As if greed and self promotion aren't any factors in his pursuits, but rather subtle revenge.)
Many years ago a family member gave me a hard time for having a gold plated Nazi sword and said I should be ashamed of myself because someones gold teeth were used to plate the sword fittings. I simply told him I bought the sword from a Jewish seller and that shut him up.
Posted By: Gaspare Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/14/2014 03:14 AM
90, 91 when Ukraine became independent it happened so quick they didn't even have time to print up their money!, Utilities weren't set up, food deliveries, who was paying who, etc. They were broke and hungry.

Most in the early days had to barter to eat.. 1st thing my wifes cousins did were to get some old maps shovels,metal detectors and hit the battle fields [not grave yards]. They survived those early years and what the ground gave up helped...
CG as you guys all mentioned was a greed and need to be accepted by being famous [?] Bad boy...........
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/20/2014 06:55 PM
Craig has made the National Enquirer !
My GF subscribes to the magazine and once in a blue moon I'll thumb through it, the April 28 edition has a scathing article on the grave diggers thing ... Not much of a typer so I'll just preview the title and 1st paragraph of the article:

"PAWN STAR" IS A NAZI GRAVE ROBBER
Outrage over looting AS BODIES ARE DUG UP

A guest on the popular "Pawn Stars" series is embroiled in a heated international scandal as he comes under blistering attack for being a grave robber.
A team of amateur "diggers" - led by Craig Gottlieb, one of the experts who frequently appears on "Pawn Stars" - is being called to task by scientists for alleged looting and desecration of World War 2 graves.
Posted By: Dave Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/20/2014 09:20 PM
Why don't you write to the National Geographic channel and that pawn shop and complain?
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/20/2014 09:32 PM
Who me ?
I barely watch any TV, can't say that CG being a guest expert on pawn stars bothers me in the least. Merely passing on a relevant, on topic development for those interested, don't see why you are peeved by that.
That said, it would seem pretty likely that his days on pawn stars are numbered, given the lead characters professed disdain for Nazi relics.
Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner) Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/21/2014 01:52 AM
Originally Posted By: Skynyrd

"PAWN STAR" IS A NAZI GRAVE ROBBER
Outrage over looting AS BODIES ARE DUG UP

A guest on the popular "Pawn Stars" series is embroiled in a heated international scandal as he comes under blistering attack for being a grave robber.
A team of amateur "diggers" - led by Craig Gottlieb, one of the experts who frequently appears on "Pawn Stars" - is being called to task by scientists for alleged looting and desecration of World War 2 graves.



Gee, I wonder if Rick of Pawn Stars would be 'Creeped-Out' to find out that one of his 'experts' is NAZI grave robbing for fun and profit?
Sounds like this Breaking Story will have legs.



.
Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner) Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/21/2014 11:08 PM
Hot off the check-out magazine rack.

WOW! I don't think Rick is going to like this. Anyone else ?

Posted By: Sepp Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/21/2014 11:45 PM
Craig Gottlieb is a real POS Honest to God

Sepp
Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner) Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/22/2014 12:05 AM
story picked-up by drudgereport.com

http://www.nationalenquirer.com/celebrity/pawn-stars-guest-accused-being-nazi-grave-robber
Posted By: kyles bullets Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/22/2014 12:27 AM
Originally Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner)


CG has officially reached the end of his career IMO...
Posted By: Tanker Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/22/2014 01:59 AM
For all the folks/forums that took up for him and banned members, (like me) when we spoke out against him and his shady business practices have now seen the light!
Ron
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/22/2014 02:02 AM
No doubt CG will be looking into a libel suit as his only option to counter this negative publicity, I don't like his odds.
The Enquirer has been sued so many times in the past that most of their stories are pretty well researched and factual.
Posted By: Degens Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/22/2014 02:14 AM
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." - Einstein
Posted By: Gaspare Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/22/2014 02:23 PM

"Gottlieb – an ex-Marine and expert in Nazi-era artifacts –"
He will love this! Someone actually,finally calling him a 'expert' grin wink
Posted By: Sepp Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/22/2014 02:49 PM
I am ashamed to call him a former Marine...Marines put people in their graves not dig them up

Sepp
Posted By: Paul Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/23/2014 08:55 AM
"there is no such thing as bad publicity-except for your own obituary"

Brendan Behan-(He was an Irish poet, dramatist, poet, novelist,)
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/23/2014 07:24 PM
Originally Posted By: Paul
"there is no such thing as bad publicity-except for your own obituary"



May be true the majority of times, being publicized as a grave robber in a national tabloid, not so sure.
Only he knows what damage if any has been done ,, If he continues to be one of Ricks call boys on pawn stars, we'll know the damage was minimal.
Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner) Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/25/2014 05:32 AM
Now a international 'star' with a real period 'ground dug' skull.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDwQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fnews%2Farticle-2591894%2FFury-National-Geographic-channel-historians-digging-Second-World-War-graves.html&ei=WeZZU7a1O8e2yAS__IHQDw&usg=AFQjCNHxkBF3WfuKML1x83z2HDXEy2_Sww&bvm=bv.65397613,d.aWw




Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner) Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/25/2014 05:33 AM


Can I get a little link-up help ?

Serge...If I know how to do it I would,lol, I cant even get photos on here. Im not the sharpest tack when it comes to computers. Im sure Dave will help out when he sees the post. Rick
Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner) Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/25/2014 09:00 AM
Rick, Thanks for the help anyway.
Posted By: Sepp Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/25/2014 09:25 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...War-graves.html

Click on this link


Sepp
Posted By: militarymania Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/27/2014 01:16 AM
Looks like Craig has found another artifact for sale...Bids anyone??

Attached picture cg.jpg
Posted By: Landser Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/27/2014 04:25 AM
'Disgrace': The presenters pose over the remains of a soldier who would have died fighting on the Eastern Front

Attached picture turds.jpg
Posted By: Gaspare Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 04/27/2014 06:07 AM
whats that they say?,,,every one is famous for 15 min..

Well looks like he's had his 15 and a couple more.
All I can say is he's over and done with..

Now he can join the ranks of the other 'big expert' dealers and stay away from the forums,,,- lurk around the big shows looking for a whale to buy their latest big ,rare, self authenticating 'high end' find and have their other dealer friends back the POS up...
Posted By: kingtiger Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 10/07/2014 05:59 PM
In the end, I have outlived Elvis, Michael Jackson and Craig Gottlieb's "fame". In the beginning, he was a really nice guy and I got some good stuff from him. Whatever happened to the excited young man from then to now. Not a pretty picture, digging up dead soldiers and appearing in the Enquirer. Too bad.

Mark
Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner) Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 11/19/2015 08:42 AM
Originally Posted By: kingtiger
In the end, I have outlived Elvis, Michael Jackson and Craig Gottlieb's "fame". In the beginning, he was a really nice guy and I got some good stuff from him. Whatever happened to the excited young man from then to now. Not a pretty picture, digging up dead soldiers and appearing in the Enquirer. Too bad.

Mark


Well it appears Craig's is back on the stump tooting his own horn. I post this as it relates to this Nazi grave digging thread, and we get to hear his words and views on it looking back.

www.militarytrader.com/military-trader/10-questions-with-the-history-hu...

What a Hoot of a read ! eek

For me this line is the Cherry on the Cake:

>>As a dealer, collector, auctioneer, author, and reality television star, Craig Gottlieb has made a name for himself within the collecting community while successfully elevating the hobby’s national exposure. - See more at: http://www.militarytrader.com/military-t...h.nT4Eb9Hk.dpuf<
Posted By: Dave Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 11/19/2015 08:53 PM
Serge, you ain't seen nothing yet!

Before the MAX show, Craig sent out a note with a photo of a San Diego police officer's badge with the comment:

*****

"So what does a Law Enforcement badge have to do with the MAX show? Well, it's the reason that, for the first time in over 15 years, I won't be attending. Nooooo, WAFers, I'm not in jail! I'm enrolled in the Police Academy, and will upon successful completion later this fall, be sworn as a Peace Officer in California, and will be serving my community part time, in that capacity. My academy has a zero-absence policy for some of the periods of instruction, and two of those classes fall squarely on the MAX show dates. So while I'm disappointed to miss the action, miss catching up with friends and colleagues, and missing the debut of the "OVMS Max Show" I will be back in Februarty for SOS ... I've already bought my plane ticket!"

*****

Dave
Posted By: Tanker Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 11/19/2015 08:57 PM
Oh my! California is safer!
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 11/19/2015 09:33 PM
"I wasn't banned, I resigned !" lol

Admittedly it could be true, but just saying it seems a bit demeaning.
Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner) Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 11/20/2015 05:29 AM
Originally Posted By: Dave
Serge, you ain't seen nothing yet!

Before the MAX show, Craig sent out a note with a photo of a San Diego police officer's badge with the comment:

*****

"So what does a Law Enforcement badge have to do with the MAX show? Well, it's the reason that, for the first time in over 15 years, I won't be attending. Nooooo, WAFers, I'm not in jail! I'm enrolled in the Police Academy, and will upon successful completion later this fall, be sworn as a Peace Officer in California, and will be serving my community part time, in that capacity. My academy has a zero-absence policy for some of the periods of instruction, and two of those classes fall squarely on the MAX show dates. So while I'm disappointed to miss the action, miss catching up with friends and colleagues, and missing the debut of the "OVMS Max Show" I will be back in Februarty for SOS ... I've already bought my plane ticket!"

*****

Dave





Dave, Herr Gottlieb won't be on the job long. He'll be 'injured' again and collect another pension/disability.

In any case, as a cop I doubt he will be the first man through the door, as he was the first man jumping in the grave.
For me, seeing Gottlieb in a Police uniform would be like seeing Himmler dressed as a Priest.

Serge
Posted By: Gaspare Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 11/20/2015 05:54 AM
crazy ,,,He's a legend in his own mind sleep
Posted By: Panzerfaust Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 11/20/2015 04:03 PM
What's next....Is he gonna run for president? LOL!
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 11/20/2015 07:06 PM
Probably an angle to spin it off into another cheesy show
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 11/20/2015 10:29 PM
"Kollecting Kops" ?
Posted By: Dave Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 11/20/2015 11:50 PM
No, guys.

I think it is concealed carry. A policeman can carry a concealed weapon about anywhere.
Posted By: Gaspare Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 11/21/2015 06:24 AM
think you hit it Dave! He's a trembler. Acts the big tough Marine,,but a insecure dude for sure that's probably ******** scared of his own shadow,,,,,and now he gets to pack all the time!!!

Craig, as always since you were part founder here,, psychiatric evaluations are always free for you! wink ,, sleep sleep
Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner) Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 11/21/2015 04:33 PM
Yep, He might have to use that in defense of his life against one or more of the
20 Internet Bullies that were just so jealous of him and his success. laugh
Posted By: Militarynut Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 11/26/2015 03:56 AM
hey guys
happy thanksgiving to all our members here and there this also includes police officer craig gottlieb ps save some room for the apple pie best andy militarynut
Posted By: Mike (aka Byzanti) Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 11/26/2015 12:37 PM
Happy thanksgiving to you too Andy! And to the rest of the gdc, enjoy some truthan mit sosse und kurbiskuchen! (Turkey w gravy and pumpkin pie)&#127831;
Posted By: timothy downum Re: Craig Gottlieb expelled from WAF - 01/04/2017 06:36 AM
This little man is quite the bafoon all the way around. If you don't think this look at the photo's again. Expert ? expert in a--clownery. timothy
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