UBB.threads
Posted By: sellick8302@rogers.com Ethics and opinion - 01/20/2012 07:04 AM
Hi gentlemen I wish to relay a factual story of what happened to me last year and solicit opinions. I purchased an SS honour ring early last year for the pricely sum of $10,995.00 from a well known dealer. I added an authentic ring box (not purchased from the same seller as ring) for a total investment of $13,995.00. 4 months later a sudden change in my marital and subsequently financial situation forced me to offer this ring and box back to the original seller. The seller was not interested as he said that he was "overstocked" at the time in honor rings but offerred to broker a deal for the ring and box with another well known and respected dealer. I was told that the dealer would take the ring and box for the sum of $7000.00. As I was in a financial bind due to the disolution of my marriage I agreed. I mailed off both ring and box to the recommended dealer. Weeks went by and I received no payment. after more than a month and in desperate need of the funds I contacted the original dealer. The dealer informed me that the second dealer decided to pass on the ring as it did not meet his "expectations" I found this odd as the original seller "recommended" the ring and I would have to assume that he gave an apt discription. Also I was told that second dealer would "take the ring" for the price discussed. The original seller than offerred to take both ring and box for the sum of $6000.00 a loss of $7995.00 in less than 4 months. The original seller than stated " I feel like I basically raped you" I have since discovered (very recently)that both dealers are friends and involved in a partnership. I have done much business with the original seller of the ring...but not with the second dealer, although I have the uptmost respect for the second dealer until now. The ring is now offerred for sale on a dealer's site who advertises on this very site minus the box for $9000.00....my question is thus...does anyone believe that I have any recourse whatsoever? I don't want to compare this feeling that I have to rape as I believe that is insultive but I do feel like I was played..Thanks and regards, Ryan rsellick@rogers.com
Posted By: sellick8302@rogers.com Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/20/2012 07:10 AM
P.S. I have all of the original email correspondance to prove, if required...regards
Posted By: JR Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/20/2012 08:53 AM
We see this happen every day with antique dealers, pawn shops, gun dealers, motorcycle dealerships, auctions, and more. Try taking your brand new car that you've owned for 6 months, and only put 10 miles on ............ back to the dealership to see what they will give you for it? Military antique dealers are no different. Like the others that I've listed, they are in business to make money and will try to buy at wholesale, and sell at retail.

Let's face it, worst possible time to sell anything, is when you are under the gun,and have to. But when it comes down that, you alone have the final say whether you are going to accept that type of loss on an item and move on............... or find another way to raise the funds that you need.

I'm sorry to hear of yours or any other collector that is force into selling their prized collectibles, as I am offered items almost weekly, under nearly your same similar circumstances.
Posted By: sellick8302@rogers.com Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/20/2012 01:55 PM
Hi JR thanks for your reply, selling at a low price I do not be-grudge.my decision..my call...no gun litterally to my head.....my post point was this....the dealer stated that he brokered a deal with the other dealer to purchase my ring.....I send the ring off for what I was told was a "sure sale" I hear nothing for weeks until I contact the original seller and discover that the second dealer passed on the ring. Then original seller, having ring in his possession offers low ball price...I then find out much later that the 2 are friends and "business associates" to me it appears as if this was a orchestrated concocted and manipulated scam for the original seller to purchase the ring back at the lowest of prices.....sorry but I do not put respected militaria dealers that I have known for 10 and 20 years respectfully similiar to an art dealer or fine collectibles dealer in the same category as a pawn shop...nor a motorcycle dealership...that is natural depreciation..these collectibles, for the most part are seen as investments...and they should have some retention of value...especially when the seller touts them as such at every opportunity.that the buy back is a lower price is fine as well...though I think that a $7995 loss in 4 months is a bit severe considering that the dealer would have realized profit on the initial deal...and on the 3rd deal...thanks and cheers
Posted By: sellick8302@rogers.com Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/20/2012 01:59 PM
P.S. if I had a relationship with a car dealership where I was a valued repeat customer and had purchased a new car, even though 99% of the time a car represents natural depreciation and does so 30% the moment title changes I would expect some degree of consideration from my sales person and would not expect to get "raped" or manipulated...however I again to not put a car dealership in the same hemishere as respected militaria dealers. cheers
Posted By: patrice Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/20/2012 02:47 PM

Ryan's right, this is highly unethical but hey, we all know that most dealers are driven by greed only and nothing else.
BTW, you wouldn't loose 50% in 4 months if you were to trade back your car.............guaranteed.
We also don't make a 50% profit on a car we sell, the average gross profit on a car is less than 15%, I do know.
So it is a completely different ball game. IT is quite obvious that these two crooks, sorry I should say honorable dealers, were in to squeeze all the juice out your veins.
This is trully pathetic and do feel sorry about your mistfortune.
It is too easy to simply flip the page and say "business as usual", I'm sorry but I dissagree.
It is not because it is common practice that it makes it right, does it ?

All the best mate.
Posted By: sellick8302@rogers.com Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/20/2012 03:24 PM
Thanks Pat, appreciate...everyone please keep in mind..I am not seeking empathy here..I bought and I sold..no issue...my issue is with the way the deal "played out" and then I discover after the fact that the two dealers are almost partners or at the very least have a business relationship...this I did not know and was not aware of at the time of the sale. I would have questioned it had I known this fact..I was told that the seller knew a dealer who was in search of a ring and that he would contact him ...I knew that they were familiar as most every dealer is that attends the Max and SOS but did not know that they had a business relationship...if this happened in Real estate of the auto business would someone not have issue with it???
Posted By: Mr. Jerry Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/20/2012 04:16 PM
There could be what is known as a "conflict of interest" but while most of the guys have these symbiotic partnerships, they are in fact individual dealers. Most would pull the rug out from the others mother to get a deal...

Consider it an expensive but valuable lesson learned, move forward, don't beat yourself up over it. we have all been there.

and next time your by that dealers table, handle their white topped LW visor hats with orange Cheeto fingers....
grin
Posted By: JohnZ Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/20/2012 06:00 PM
Ryan:

It is water under the bridge and you cannot go back to do things differently.

First of all, chalk it up as a lesson learned.

Secondly, I suggest that you have this conversation, if you haven't already, with the first dealer. While it will not change the outcome, it will make him think and, maybe, your next interaction with him will be a better one.

John
Posted By: sellick8302@rogers.com Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/20/2012 06:12 PM
Thanks guys...valid points and suggestions...
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/20/2012 07:00 PM
No recourse, all you can do is, of course, refuse to have any further dealings with them ,,, And if it was me, I'd name them.
Not necessarily "name & shame" or anything vindictive, as a thread like that would probably get deleted quickly, but more like what you just said, complete with names.
These guys claim rep is everything, its hard to see how they expect to maintain it with shenanigans like that. They are counting on doing their underhanded dealings in the dark, so consider throwing a little light on them.
Posted By: Mikee Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/20/2012 07:13 PM
Sorry about your situation!..There's always two sides to a story, but lesson learned! That's BS!..... If they did what you say they did,then this isn't their first powwow. Difference is you found out the rest of the story. Hello, yes it was highly unethical!... You were scammed plain and simple by two dealers/buisness partners "conspiring" to cheat you. They could have taken the honest road and inform you, but they decided not to. Take there sorry butts to court! Who are they so other members don't fall into there conspiring dishonest scam.
Posted By: paulbear Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/20/2012 07:55 PM
I AGREE MIKEE total nonsense and you need to out these folks and see what falls to the ground
Posted By: sellick8302@rogers.com Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/20/2012 08:50 PM
Hi guys thanks for the comments...there are two sides to every story and in all fairness I have not confronted the second dealer about this situation at all...I do have all of our email exchanges from the first however detailing everything. I will never deal with the first again unfortunately as I did like him, but did have a few less than pleasing experiences..I do intend to confront the other should I be able to afford or have justification to attend the SOS this year..things are not looking good thus far, however.I never had any dealings with the second dealer as I could not afford his prices nor the quailty of his very high end merchandise. He was always ready to help with opinions and expertise whenever asked.He had my uptmost respect however, as I believe he does generally from the collecting community at large. I can not say with 100% certainty that there was a conspriacy on both their parts....I can say that I have since found out that they often purchase collections together and buy and sell and trade items amongst themselves...this I did not know..I just wonder how much profit one has to realize on the same deal...and to what lengths one is willing to go...cheers
Posted By: Mikee Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/20/2012 09:03 PM
If it's true to fact what you are stating, then imo whether or not there was a conspiracy and or criminal intent will be hard to prove in court unless they are in fact partners. Sounds like they are. What I think it comes down to is that they still failed to disclose facts that otherwise could have swayed your decision to sell to "them". If it's true than they should return your ring and you should refund there money. If taken to court they could loose a lot more, up to a judge to "decide",so you never know.
Posted By: Craig Gottlieb Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/20/2012 10:32 PM
While sitting here at the Vegas antique gun show, I don't recall the specific details of this transaction, nor do I remember which ring it is. I do know I was one of the dealers in question. Let me state a few facts:

1) The ring market is depressed, with a few exceptions (high-personality pieces, stone mint pieces, etc).
2) I am partners with nobody, but do business with a LOT of dealers in this field, and am "friends" with many.
3) When approached, I make offers based upon a number of factors, including market conditions, my current inventory, other buying opportunities, etc.
4) Panic sales rarely result in high realized prices. 60 cents on the dollar is hard to take, but it happens frequently.
5) I do a lot of trading with dealers regularly, but there is no conspiracy here.

I will be glad to talk with Mr. Sellick at SOS privately, but will not participate in an online spectacle debate. I DO believe that I offered him consignment as an option, at a more favorable rate than normal. I'm sure Tom can confirm what I offered with his email records, which he's welcome to bring to SOS.
Posted By: reichstall Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/21/2012 12:25 AM
Well it is a point in case he did not have to sell it .I was not in his shoes so it is hard to judge but My self i would not have gone into this deal with a second person.But It will be hard on this fourmn to get anything out with out it getting deleted. So is there really anyuse of going on any more.
Posted By: sellick8302@rogers.com Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/21/2012 12:25 AM
I wont offer anything else here than this.......this collecting community is small....and rumour and inuendo exist..fair enough....but a friendship is a vague term...I would never have mentioned names but be that as it may....I have always defended you and been one of your biggest supporters..I have resisted participating in Craig bashing of any kind..I judge a chap by how he deals with me and treats me...you and I did 'good" mutually beneficial business in the past, although not on the scale that would make anyone rich. There were a few items purchased that were less than described but we resolved those issues. When I was told the info from more than one, and again people that have no axe to grind with either of you it is no different than a car dealer sending someone across the street to the competition for a trade in and you later find out that they are brothers in law or business partners...you never get a second chance to make a first impression...you said "I feel like I raped you" well Craig, honestly, when this info came to me it left a really bad taste in my mouth almost as if you had...no pun intended. I could have purchased a ring from anyone, I choose you...$11,000 was a lot of money for me and up to that point my largest single militaria purchase since 1982...Now this thread should be closed before it becomes another forum to bash Craig because that was never my intent...cheers
Posted By: sellick8302@rogers.com Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/21/2012 12:32 AM
P.S. I never was nor ever would consider legal action, nor would it be warranted here...nothing illegal done..I don't want this going down that road..or that I am sour grapes.I thought you were doing me a favour by introducing the other party..as we had done good business.you said there was no need to send him pictures, that you were certain he would take it...I send it to him and 4 weeks later I see nothing and hear nothing until I contact you and you state that he "passed on it"...no urgency to call me on your part or his and no urgency to return my ring...strange...then it is bought at an even lower price knowing that I had money owing on a purchase and would most likely take almost any offer, no matter how absurd...then one year later it is alledged that you both have a "business relationship" what would any logiccal person think...? over and out!!
Posted By: sellick8302@rogers.com Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/21/2012 12:37 AM
P.S. when I was made the initial offer and told that he would take it I needed to purchase an automobile as my wife got to keep the two I had...I put money down on a car....the money from the ring was the money owing and I made a sizeable downpayment...the terms were balance in one month..this is why I had no choice but to accept the offer, or loose my downpayment and possibly the car..and I needed a car as I drive 200kms per day to work...just to clarify
Posted By: Jim W Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/21/2012 12:57 AM
Exactly how does that work? The wife driving two cars?

It looks like divorce laws are the same all over.

The wife gets the gold and the husband gets the shaft.

In your case the wife got the assets and you got left with your asset waiving in the wind.

Hard place to be.
Posted By: Mikee Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/21/2012 01:29 AM
I hope the membership has learned a very special lesson in all of this mess! "Don't hang around with women who like cars!" grin
Posted By: SteveRay Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/21/2012 02:02 AM
Originally Posted By: Mr. Jerry
There could be what is known as a "conflict of interest" but while most of the guys have these symbiotic partnerships, they are in fact individual dealers. Most would pull the rug out from the others mother to get a deal...

Consider it an expensive but valuable lesson learned, move forward, don't beat yourself up over it. we have all been there.

and next time your by that dealers table, handle their white topped LW visor hats with orange Cheeto fingers....


Love it.
Posted By: DJDR Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/21/2012 04:38 AM
There are two types of collectors. One that collects because they enjoy it and would never sell their collection, and then there are dealers. Dealers might enjoy what they collect,buy,sell,etc....but they are in it to make a living. I think we would all love to find a treasure dagger at a garage sale, or estate sale. If you saw someone selling a $5000 dagger for $100, (remind you at a garage sale, most of the time people need money that have them), would YOU point out that the dagger was worth much more, and they should re-think selling it? Or buy it and brag about your "find"? Tough decision. A question only each of us could answer at that time. And no, offering $200 would not make it better.
Posted By: sellick8302@rogers.com Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/21/2012 05:34 AM
it was an amicable split, she got the Landrover and the Lexus 430SC (and yes, she does like cars, owned a vette when we met) it has been on and off again and sometimes rocky but we eventually reconciled cheers
Posted By: Johnny V. Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/21/2012 01:31 PM
Dear Sellick,

I am sorry to hear about the divorce, and even more sorry to hear about this shady deal (I am obviously a collector, rather than a romantic at heart). smile

Honestly, I see this from 2 sides (neither agrees with how the dealers handled this).

On the one side: I agree with Pat and several of the other opinions. It sounds to me like the dealers in question knew that you were in a bind and coordinated to take advantage of your position. Very sad. This is the kind of thing that we hate to hear in this hobby.
YES, we understand that this hobby means "business" to many who are involved.
YES we understand that (probably) nothing illegal was done here, so there is no recourse.
But I think somewhere in our minds, we all think of this hobby as a "small island" where everyone knows everyone and we all (for the most part) try to keep an eye out for one another. I believe it is because of this "mindset" that such situations strikes a chord with collectors.

Now, on the other side, (and I am sorry to everyone for how this may sound) I have been on GDC and the "sites" for somewhere around 10 years, with eyes and ears open the whole time.
How many times have we heard stories like this?
How many times have we heard of such dealers?
How many times have the same dealer names come up time, and time, and time, and time again???

Buying from/selling to some individuals is (IMO) a: "do so at your own peril" situation.
I believe that you SHOULD post the dealer names so that anyone not familiar, can learn from your experience…

But, honestly, this is all our fault.
If we, the collectors, were not so obsessed with this stuff, then the values would not have climbed to what is (IMO) a barely sustainable level.
If the values were not so high, there would be less "profit" in the hobby for dealers and all involved.
If there was less profit available, there would be less motivation to scam and skim in what has become a minefield hobby.

Think about it. Do you think the Czechs would be cranking out those NICE new fake SS daggers (which must cost a few hundreds dollars to create) if they weren´t able to sell them for $5k???

Yes, we collectors sit back with our horde of daggers and pat ourselves on the back for making such "fine investments" as we watch(ed) values climb and climb for 60 years.
And then when an SA dagger costs $1,400 and nice Heers cost $1k, we all act so surprised that anyone would be motivated to:
1) Make fakes.
2) Hump up original pieces by adding fake inscriptions or whatever else.
3) Rip off collectors.
4) Scam vets out of the valuables.
5) Back stab one another on deals.

It is not the cost of the $1,400 SA daggers that will cause people to leave the hobby it is the other 5 points above that are a result of these values.

The longer I am in this weird hobby, the more I believe that we share just 1 problem which is creating all of these troubles: THERE IS TOO MUCH MONEY IN THIS HOBBY.

Again, I am sorry that this happened to you Sellick, but considering the amount of money involved, it proved too tempting and profitable to give you the shaft.
Posted By: Gaspare Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/21/2012 04:05 PM
Ryan,, I agree - it is the absolute worst time to sell any collectable - guns, Barbies, comics, knives, and our items. You'll be lucky to get half if you bought from a 'big' dealer [which you did].
My opinion, you paid too much to start with. It will be years before you will be able to make your money back.
With the touting of Craigs book when it was coming out, the over inflated value of HRs around that time and your not the only guy that got 'stuck' paying too much on an HR afterwards. It's going to be a long time before the HR market recovers.
Hold if you can......
Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner) Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/21/2012 06:56 PM
Ryan, We've done business in the past and I know your a straight up guy.
The last thing anyone wants to do in this hobby is go to a militaria dealer and say; 'Wow, I never thought this would happen but I'm going through a divorse and need some help as I need cash- now Mr. Dealer we've been friends all these years and I bought... .. ...' laugh

Your going to get what's coming to ya. Not with all dealers but especially more so with some than others. Yep...they love to 'rape'...give them a chance, an opening, especially when your down, - OH WOW! Best time to nail you. And there's nothing you can say but what you just did.
They will say 'Hey!, I didn't hold a gun to your head! You took my offer. YOU went for it ! ' smirk

Just SOP...(standard operating procedures)

Look don't feel bad. Over a year ago one of these dealers didn't want to give an owner $10,000 for a legit woodwork Feldherrnhalle dagger...and this guy was not going through a divorse. laugh

-Serge-
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/21/2012 06:58 PM
Just last year, he paid $10,995 [Apparently to Craig] for the ring.
4 months later, same seller bought the ring + a box for $6000 ,, And is now offered up for sale, minus the box, for $9,000. Box will presumably rake in another couple K$.

So I can hardly buy the view that "the ring market is glutted and depressed" from the above scenario in that short time span.
Apparently, it wasn't glutted enough for him to sell it for $11,000 in the first place, then offer half of that months later.
It also appears highly likely that collusion is involved between these two "friends, acquaintances, associates", however they chose to describe their relationship, to take advantage of a hard up mark. I can hardly imagine sending off an HR in the mail and waiting a month to hear a reply, only to be told "no dice ,,, but maybe we can work something out after all".

Some onus & responsibility does lie, to be sure, with the buyer for paying too much for this thing in this alleged "depressed market", but there is little doubt that he was taken advantage of, and was the victim of nothing less than TR racketeering by unscrupulous, greedy elite sellers.
Once again, very little recourse. I would like to think that karma will give back to these guys, and then some, what they have dished out to others. On that note, Mr Gottlieb, kindly unsubscribe epoxy1@comcast.net from your frequent auction mailings. I don't care if you offer me Hitlers personal EK1 for $19.95 + shipping, I want nothing to do with the likes of you.
Posted By: Johnny V. Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/21/2012 07:26 PM
Serge - Preaching the truth!

Skynard - Niiice!!! You took the words right out of my mouth!
Posted By: Landser Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/22/2012 01:54 AM
I think that pretty much all of us have been burned at some time Ryan it does make you feel really bad. I almost got out of this hobby before getting in to it. The feeling in my gut was actually physical and therefore not one that I will ever forget. In retrospect it was probably a valuable experience that tempered my subsequent dealings with a healthy level of caution. It wasn`t by any means a great deal of money but it`s relative & was to me at the time.

Decent, honest people instinctively by their good nature tend to believe others will have the same moral code because anything other than that would be alien. Especially so from people that you have known of or dealt with for a long time. Unfortunately not always the case.

In this instance the only thing that would surprise me is that anyone might be surprised.
Posted By: DJDR Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/22/2012 03:56 AM
Very well written Landser. That last sentence/thought, spot on with many things in this world.
Posted By: Larry C Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/22/2012 04:43 AM
Originally Posted By: Skynyrd
No recourse, all you can do is, of course, refuse to have any further dealings with them ,,, And if it was me, I'd name them.
Not necessarily "name & shame" or anything vindictive, as a thread like that would probably get deleted quickly, but more like what you just said, complete with names.
These guys claim rep is everything, its hard to see how they expect to maintain it with shenanigans like that. They are counting on doing their underhanded dealings in the dark, so consider throwing a little light on them.


I agree with Doug,,what would a dealer have to fear if he or she is on the up and up and a potential buyer mentions their name.
#1 its a gauranteed receipt that you done business with the person, and that includes free advertising for that dealer.
#2 why keep a transaction secret? is there a fear of rejection from the community and a fear of being blacklisted because of the dealers background? If that type of darkness in doubt is already present,,something is telling you not to do it!
Word of mouth works both ways good and bad,, and its up to the dealer to provide and list the truth about an item or dont sell it at all and its the latter that gets him in trouble in the long run and a life long stain on his reputation thereafter.
Its also up to the collector to crawl out of his comfort zone and not be so dependent on the dealer and their word. One can not learn anything on their own if they depend on someone else by asking the same repeated questions over and over again from the same person,, is this real?? how does this look? Read and talk with MANY other collectors and their examples,, whether you collect those types or not.
Dont ask and dont tell may work with alternative lifestyle people but it doesnt fly at a store when you want to return something without a receipt. Mention a dealer by name IMO is the best policy for return business or no return business if there is something shady going on. Thats your reciept!! USE IT!! I know we would not settle for less, if our family members were compromised in some way,, or do we just close our mouth and look the other way. Not me!
Funny how we can have problems making ends meet or say we dont have it to pay the doctor bills but will spend thousands of dollars on TR stuff ( me included ) but will find a way to get extra money somewhere to get that rare artifact collectible. Then there is that hard bitter pill that we are forced to swallow and have no other recourse but to sell off some of our treasured TR examples, because of unfortunate circumstances,, been there and done that too! So if I am going to go against the grain and spend that kind of money to get something in this hobby,, I am going to make sure, it is going to be worth it. Thats the easy part the hard part is if you dont have an understanding spouse,, you can add to the doctor bills of what she might do to you.
This is a tough hobby to be into in these times and anymore one needs to really know whats going on all around them,, because the Repro monster is only getting bigger.
I am not directing this at anyone personally but as an educational whole in collecting and protecting.
Posted By: JohnZ Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/22/2012 05:21 AM
Siegfried:

There is a big difference between returning somehting that was not as described.. where one would expect a courteous and quick full refund.

If the item was ok to start with and you now want to sell it to the original dealer or to anyone else, then the market will prevail. You will get for it what the other wants to offer. If you don't like the offer, then don't take it. It you take the offer, then don't whine about it (and this is NOT what I think that Ryan is doing here at all). When you are anxious to sell, then your ability to tell a low ball offeror to pee up a stick isn't very strong at all.

Indirectly, I think that this is becoming a bit of a Craig bashing thread. I can't fault Craig for making a low ball offer, even if he is the one who sold this originally. But, Ryan didn't have to accept the low offer, did he? Craig may have been greedy and a prime capitalist, but isn't that the American dream (apologies to all my 'Merican friends)?

John
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/22/2012 08:33 AM
Originally Posted By: JohnZ
Siegfried:

There is a big difference between returning somehting that was not as described.. where one would expect a courteous and quick full refund.

If the item was ok to start with and you now want to sell it to the original dealer or to anyone else, then the market will prevail. You will get for it what the other wants to offer. If you don't like the offer, then don't take it. It you take the offer, then don't whine about it (and this is NOT what I think that Ryan is doing here at all). When you are anxious to sell, then your ability to tell a low ball offeror to pee up a stick isn't very strong at all.

Indirectly, I think that this is becoming a bit of a Craig bashing thread. I can't fault Craig for making a low ball offer, even if he is the one who sold this originally. But, Ryan didn't have to accept the low offer, did he? Craig may have been greedy and a prime capitalist, but isn't that the American dream (apologies to all my 'Merican friends)?

John


No one is bashing CG.
Any negative comments voiced, he has brought upon himself. We are all presumably adults, any "bashing" going on, no doubt admin would put a stop to it, pronto.
Thats one thing that really gets me, the inevitable implication that you can't say anything negative about any of the "big guys" without the need for being censored - In other words, if ya don't have anything good to say about them, then don't say it at all !
I for one am not impressed with someones title, status or claim to fame. Anyone should be called out, or praised, for that matter, solely on the merits of what they have done.

I honestly don't think people like this have much of a conscience. I think they enjoy stepping on peoples toes, and turning a profit off others misfortunes. They always fall back on the well worn "no one held a gun to their head" cliché to ease what little dormant kernel of conscience they may have, and are prone to bow out, in the guise of "taking the high road", of any subsequent discussions of their latest shenanigans.
This ain't the first, and it won't be the last.

On the + side, Craig deserves props for creating this excellent forum, and I also must say, he makes it very easy to unsubscribe from his auction mailings.
Posted By: dond Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/22/2012 03:01 PM
Originally Posted By: JohnZ
Craig may have been greedy and a prime capitalist, but isn't that the American dream (apologies to all my 'Merican friends)?

John


Contrary to popular belief, your average "Merican" does not go around looking for someone to screw over. We believe in a honest days pay for an honest days work.
Posted By: Jim W Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/22/2012 04:17 PM
It is amazing how the "class warfare" that the press is drumming up in the States seems to have affected our Canadian neighbors.

I made a carreer out of working for firms that bought distressed companies and turned them around. For those detractors, giv e me your solution. I will state the fact. A distressed company is one that is about to go under. All the jobs will be lost. 100% of the jobs will be lost when the company closes. A firm comes in and buys the company. They then determine what steps must occur to save the company. generally this involves removing management that ran it into the ground, and annalyzing operations to streamline them, make them profitable, and save both the company and the related jobs. I was very successful at this an two companies are functioning today with people fully employed because of what we did.

The company behind this risked millions of their dollars, on the bet that they could save the company.

John Z, do you really think it is wrong to be financially rewarded when you risked millions of your money and saved jobs and developed a viable company.

Again, for detractors of capitalism, what is your solution, The government steps in and keeps an unprofiable company going at the taxpayers expense. I saw this first hand in Poland. teh people were literally starving after years of this.

And yes, some companies can not be saved because they waigted too long to upgtrade, or various other reasons. And yes, they need to be dismantled. But, when they are, all pensions are still in place.

No, Canada can learn alot from the good old USA.
Posted By: JohnZ Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/22/2012 05:24 PM
We digress here, but I think that there is nothing wrong with buying low and selling high.

Capitalism, coupled with real democracy, is wrong in many ways, but it is the best system that we have produced and gives the most benefits to the largest number of people.

But, it is also human nature to be jealous of those who have more and to blame them for what we lack or for our own bad judgments.

I have done my share of turning around companies and parts of companies. The end result was usually an organization that was leaner and stronger and that strength protected the jobs of those who supported the new.

Let's get back to the original start of this thread.

Jim, you have sold items here on the forum. If someone came to you and wanted to sell an item he had bought from you, what would you offer him? What he paid or a discount off of what you think that you would be able to sell it for? In today's market, what an item sold for last year may be no higher than what it can be sold for today. Which means that you would probably offer substantially less than what was originally paid. If your whole livelihood and business depended on this, your discount off expected selling price would be pretty high.

I do not subscribe to the Occupy GDC Street school of thought that anyone who makes a 'profit' on selling an item is automatically a greedy pig and deserves to be shut down.

Oh, and I am not a socialist, but I am a realist and I also believe that we are capable of making our own decisions and have the responsability to live with them.

John
Posted By: Jim W Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/22/2012 05:57 PM
As you can see John, I still have a habit of firing from the hip.

Specific to me, because I do not make a living off of this, I have the luxury of dealing one on one with my handful of buyers, and I always remember what my cost basis is.

So I get to claim the high ground. But, I am not trying to make a living off this.

Frankly, I do not have a problem with a dealer offering 60% of the prior sale price especially when the market has turned down.

Consistent with this discussion, who gaul me are the people who go to widows and offer them 10 to 15 cents on the dollar. Those buyers often brag about their "good" fortune. When you know this is happening, 60% does not sound so bad.

Of course, the bigger question raised here was one of colussion.
Posted By: Landser Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/22/2012 10:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Jim W
Consistent with this discussion, who gaul me are the people who go to widows and offer them 10 to 15 cents on the dollar. Those buyers often brag about their "good" fortune.


Very well said Jim. We do see this from time to time and I have on a number of occasions seen them try to flip them in a day or two at retail. I find those people (and if the cap fit`s you can wear it) disgusting and a shame on the general collecting community who are for the most part good people.
Posted By: JohnZ Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/22/2012 10:48 PM
Landser,

Yes, like sharks, these people are the legal versions of con men and crooks. You can hear of them trying to scam widows and the unknowing out of their antiques, their collectibles and their hard earned wealth.

There is nothing wrong with making a buck, but when you scam people into giving their stuff away for peanuts, you are scum.

The cop out, of course, for these people is the old 'but they didn't have to sell to me' whine. The other cop out is the old 'what do you want for this piece of junk' question.

Collusion is rampant in this business.. if we define collusion as the links and the relationships between people in this hobby along with the mutual backscratching that it brings with it. Those in the know and with the right network can take advantage of the unpublished items for sale, the distress sales and the discreet offerings. Collusion can raise prices or can tank them. When done by big business, it is a crime. When done by little guys, it is a fact of life.

I have my own Honour Ring story. I purchased a named ring from a really good dealer. Not cheap, but honest and in really good shape. A while later, the dealer contacted me to try to make a deal. He would take the ring back at 80% of what I paid for it and, in exchange, I could buy a lesser ring that had the name removed for a lower price and have some money left over. I accepted, then regretted what I had done. I was really annoyed. I talked to the dealer about it and was offered some platitudes and attempted compensation for my hurt feelings. I rejected that since the annoyance I felt was with me, not with him. But, I did make it clear that I didn't want to hear of these kinds of 'offers' again, and I haven't.

John
Posted By: Landser Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/22/2012 11:24 PM
Annoyance with self is a hard one. it`s always much better if you can apportion blame elsewhere LOL.

I know the feeling! It`s probably a bit of a digression but what the heck.

Despite there being some great pieces in the U.K. there isn`t much of a good selection of stuff that comes to market and if it does then the dealers here ask the kind of monopoly money I refuse to pay. (I couldn`t live with my own stupidity).

Mostly wahat I have has come from the U.S & Canada. Some from dealer`s I respect & trust and much from colleague collectors. I have never liked lay away and internationally it is costly & impractical. I never had that much patience either.

If I did not have funds I used my credit card and kept switching balances between them to get zero or at least reduced interest rates. This worked very well until I got a little beyond my comfort zone and at the same time had some other commitments.

Being a sensible fellow I decided to take some of the pressure off and release 3 of my pieces. A very tough choice! I did the business and three people got a very handsome deal & I lost about $1800.

I though regretful felt I had done the right thing. The next month I got a very good contract and there was no need to have sold anyway.

I am still kicking mad at myself 4 years later. Those pieces in the condition they were have proven to be quite irreplaceable. That`s life, you just don`t know what`s coming next and I only have myself to blame.
Posted By: Larry C Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/23/2012 12:18 AM
Most excellent!! John and Landser,,this is what I have been trying to say in a roundabout way...its really up to us as collectors to protect and educate ourselves,, and through mistakes,, is the only way we learn. No one person is born with full knowledge.
Posted By: Craig Gottlieb Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/29/2012 12:36 AM
Originally Posted By: Skynyrd
On that note, Mr Gottlieb, kindly unsubscribe epoxy1@comcast.net from your frequent auction mailings. I don't care if you offer me Hitlers personal EK1 for $19.95 + shipping, I want nothing to do with the likes of you.


Before you fall off your high horse and collapse in a spasm of dealer-hate, consider that the ring still sits unsold. I'm sure if I was "asking" $15,000, I'd be an even worse human being. By the way, I was NOT the person who refused to buy a real FHH for $10,000! smile

I should put the ring in my next auction and see what the market value REALLY is so you can determine just how badly Mr. Sellick was "ripped off" by the secret dealer conspiracy. I'm sure if he'd listed it on GDC with the box, he would not have done much better.

Now, lets see how many pages we can make this thread last. Or, Ryan is welcomed to contact me and buy the ring back at a deep discount. It is obviously not selling, and I'd just as soon have it gone from my inventory.
Posted By: sellick8302@rogers.com Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/29/2012 07:57 AM
I am confused, the ring appears for sale on Spencer Victory's site and has for quite sometime now.....minus the box...one other thing..I was informed that when I purchased the ring that the name of the recipient was mis spelt as it appears on Don Boyle's certificate of authenticity. I was informed and the original listing did state that Don Boyle should issue a replacement certificate at no charge...when I spoke with Don (in person) he said that he had no such agreement arranged and that he should be consulted before such an offer is extended. Hence the certicate is still mis spelt to this day. I did not make a big deal out of this as the ring left my possession mere months after talking to Don at the Max show. I apologize for any tarnishing of reputations. I was not seeking restitution but rather was left with an incredibly bad taste in my mouth after learning of a pre existing business relationship between the two dealers, for whom I had the uptmost respect . This has since been reinforced by many respected members of this forum. Apparently this business relationship is known amongst dealers in the hobby. I was not aware of it at the time of our "transaction" regards
Posted By: David Holden Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/29/2012 08:58 PM
I have followed this thread as much as I can as well as others in the past relating to ethics and deals being done. This current thread is over $1,000. Period! Nothing more, nothing less. Sellick agreed to sell the ring back for $7,000. He needed the money more than he needed to hold on for "better times" and we have all been there for various reasons. Now we can talk about the narrow issue of whether this deal was "a done deal" or whether this was a deal with inspection period etc.,etc. and if not satisfied return, what ever. I will not try to solve that question here because that is where I personally don't have the information to make a decision and perhaps only the THREE parties involved do. Honor vs ethics vs business. But $1,000 is what Sellick is out. Buyer beware? Sure we all need to protect ourselves and learn as much as we can in this area or any other. I have said this once here and I will say it again. If I buy something that a dealer says is original and later it turns out it is not, and he really knew it was fake, then the moral and ethical failure is with the dealer, not me. I may have gotten hurt but the failure, the ethical failure is with the person who sold it. Not if he really believed it to be real. Of course proving that type of thing is always problematic. Here is a situation for you. I bought a cap perhaps 8+ years ago from one of the most well known dealers in the country. I got a document with it stating officially from this dealer that it was appraised to be original WW2. I have since had opinions to the effect that it is not. I offered to sell the cap back to the dealer because I want to change my interests and did not broach the subject of authenticity. He did not desire to purchase it back at any given price---- over stocked. Now I am willing to believe that he believed that the cap was real because he LEGALLY stuck his neck out and gave me a hard document certifying it. Now what happens next. If I can't sell the cap for the above stated reasons then I will have to approach the dealer and say here is the situation. Is he legally, morally or ethically obligated to take the cap back? Under my definition of honor, yes! But we will see what happens. I have not yet approached him. I will try not to put this in the court of public opinion yet but do the right thing and settle this privately if possible. If I can't then the internet is a powerful tool and the public could decide. Any thoughts on the last part?
Posted By: JR Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/29/2012 09:22 PM
Sir, as a large dealer and you as a good customer, he should be obligated to help you out on returning the item. On an expensive item at least credit and some cash to offset the original sale. I once had to do this on a consigned piece and it killed me because the consignor had been longed paid, and now I was faced with handing over 6K out of my own pocket. A very hard lesson when doing consigned items.
Posted By: JR Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/29/2012 09:27 PM
And on the other end of the spectrum, I to have come up short on consigning a couple items myself, and not getting what was agreed on initially by the dealer.
Posted By: sellick8302@rogers.com Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/29/2012 10:59 PM
Hi David, in my opinion the dealer that sold you the cap with supporting documentation has an obligation to accept the cap back at the price paid. Certainly authentic caps will have increased in value from 8 years ago. A respectable militaria dealer should have the same onus of responsibility as a fine antiques or art dealer. If you found out that the Picasso or Rembrandt etching that you purcahsed was fake and was mis represented we would all expect a refund of the original purchase price. If you purchased a Big Block numbers matching Corvette from Barret Jacksons or from any major collectible automobile dealer and later discovered that the engine block had been restamped would we all not be entitled to our money back? I am NOT a dealer but I have sold to Craig, Bill Shea and the two Toms, Paul Hogle, Bob Iqbal, Martin Stiles, Peter Whammond, Gerard Stezelberger, Barry Turk, David Farnsworth,Ivan Hillier and many members here and abroad. I have always stood by my items 100% for my lifetime...I have never had an issue. Now if a small time collector can honour such a guarantee why cant a multi million dollar dealer??? What is the cost of a reputation?? Yes I lost $7000.00 in 4 months. I expected that the item was priced at fair market value when I purchased with perhaps an increase for profit. Had I been made aware that the ring was priced at 40% or more above market I would not have purchased. In fact when I called about the ring I was told that there were many other inquiries concerning it. Funny that all of that "interest" evaporated once I purchased the ring. You are correct David, the only issue that I have is how I was misguided concerning the $1000.00.....I would accept a $1000.00 credit as compensation. This would make me happy. I will not purchase the ring back as I no longer have the ring box and I have sold off all of my SS collection.
Posted By: sellick8302@rogers.com Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/29/2012 11:02 PM
P.S. dont get me wrong...I am not be-moaning the price paid....again, onus was on me to be an educated consumer although one likes to think that there is a semblance of a relationship between himself and the dealer, especially after concluding multiple purchases and deals. Perhaps I was naive to assume as much...cheers
Posted By: David Holden Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/30/2012 05:03 AM
Hi Sellick, you have every right to be upset that you may have paid too much for the ring or anything else for that matter but that is on you or me or whoever. That is market forces, sales pitch, no one to blame, the law of supply and demand. The dealer I bought the cap from back when I was new at this stuff, 10years ago it turns out, you mentioned in your list. I won't say anymore for now on who. I appreciate your thoughts on what you think he should do and I also thank JR who I know and respect. We will see how it plays out and will let the forum know. We all know dealers who will get huffy and challenge the fact that someone else says that something is not real and challenges then go back and forth. The truth is that real stuff always seems to stand out as real and in the end it is usually widely accepted. If two well known experts challenge my first dealer's opinion then it doesn't really matter what the original dealer believes because the cap is no longer MARKETABLE. It isn't that I or anyone will lose some money on the deal, the item has no value at all. I have to be able to sell it at some price. Sellick you mentioned big block corvettes. I have traded and had fun with the 63 to 67's since the 80's. I take a back seat to no one on knowledge of those. Many problems in this field now. If you buy at auction you have no way to know if a car is what it is represented to be. Most paperwork is bogus now and an engine block can be stamped so that no one and I mean no one can tell. So any dealer who says a car has numbers matching is saying it has correct numbers on the block etc.,but has no idea if it is the original motor. So you can't believe what any dealer says for the most part because he simply can't know unless there is real history back to day one. The ethical issues come into play here in that the dealer should say I believe it is original to the best of my knowledge but the truth is he may not be lying but he doesn't know. In the WW2 hobby it has not gotten to the point where fakes can fool everyone. If you certify something as real then you are saying it is. This doesn't mean I or anyone can or will get my money back or credit as JR suggested but it does mean that future transactions and certificates or evaluations by that particular dealer aren't worth the paper they are printed on, and honor and reputation are hard won and very difficult to get back once lost. David. PS If you buy a 1967 427/435 big block corvette and it is red or black it is bogus until proven otherwise. If it is green it has a chance to be real. Years of experience to learn that!!!
Posted By: Earl (Rick) Schreiber Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/30/2012 05:21 AM
David...If you have two major dealer or expert respected collectors who say its bad then you should get your money back. As per Ryan i hate to say it but no one twisted him arm but i would be upset that it took a month to find out the second dealer didnt want it.
Posted By: David Holden Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/31/2012 02:08 AM
Thanks Rick for the opinion. David
Posted By: Skynyrd Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/31/2012 02:27 AM
Originally Posted By: Craig Gottlieb
Originally Posted By: Skynyrd
On that note, Mr Gottlieb, kindly unsubscribe epoxy1@comcast.net from your frequent auction mailings. I don't care if you offer me Hitlers personal EK1 for $19.95 + shipping, I want nothing to do with the likes of you.


Before you fall off your high horse and collapse in a spasm of dealer-hate, consider that the ring still sits unsold. I'm sure if I was "asking" $15,000, I'd be an even worse human being. By the way, I was NOT the person who refused to buy a real FHH for $10,000! smile

I should put the ring in my next auction and see what the market value REALLY is so you can determine just how badly Mr. Sellick was "ripped off" by the secret dealer conspiracy. I'm sure if he'd listed it on GDC with the box, he would not have done much better.

Now, lets see how many pages we can make this thread last. Or, Ryan is welcomed to contact me and buy the ring back at a deep discount. It is obviously not selling, and I'd just as soon have it gone from my inventory.


The thread will last as long as anyone has anything relevant to say, unless it is prematurely clipped in the usual fashion.

With you Craig, it is more of a cumulative effect than anything. I, as many others, have followed many a thread concerning your shenanigans and rock bottom ethics ,, And while, granted, not everything negative said about you is entirely true, I think that the majority is.
Far be it from me to begrudge anyone wanting to make a profit ,,, But when you lose sight of all else, as you seem to have done, that is where I personally draw the line as far as having any dealings with a person like that.
You have some admirable traits, you have passion, you have done some good things for this hobby - But it just seems like one thing after the other with you.
Posted By: sellick8302@rogers.com Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/31/2012 03:16 AM
This was NEVER about over paying, paying too much or what have you. It was about optics if nothing else.....the way that this entire deal played out was just WRONG...original dealer contacted..states not interested...brokers deal with another dealer and states that other dealer will take it...just mail it to him...1 month later dealer not interested but no one bothers to tell me. I call original seller and he offers to purchase ring for substantially less..knows that I am stuck and now ring is out in California...had the ring still been in my possession I would not have accepted $6000.00 as I already turned it down previously and had I not been told that it was a done deal I would not have committed to a large purchase...dealer makes statement "I raped you" seller (me) finds out later that there is more than a friendship between two dealers involved...whether it be true or not optics and reputations are everything...ring box is now gone and ring appears on another dealer's site, profit has been made again...this is what upsets me...what would anyone think????...........Really?
Posted By: Gaspare Re: Ethics and opinion - 01/31/2012 09:39 PM
your right...............
Posted By: Craig Gottlieb Re: Ethics and opinion - 02/03/2012 02:19 AM
.
Posted By: sellick8302@rogers.com Re: Ethics and opinion - 02/09/2012 05:12 PM
I would like to set the record straight...there is a lot of "stuff" opinions or what have you circulating about on other sites...I am NOT a "newbie" I have been actively involved in this hobby since 1982.....I know my stuff...regardless of not posting pictures on GDC.....I did not "panic sell" this ring and box...I made a deal and as a result placed a sizeable downpayment on a desperately needed car, which was the reason for me selling the ring. Craig was the first person, dealer or otherwise that I contacted...I did this because he had originally sold me the ring just a few months previous and we had done "good business" in the past. I panic sold only after sending off the ring for a done deal, placing money down on a car and then finding out one month later that we had "no deal" By this time the ring was no longer in my possession and it would have taken awhile to have it sent back and attempt to sell again..I no longer had that luxury. Had I been desperate in the first place I would have accepted the original "low offer".... I did NOT buy the ring for an investment......I have flipped much in my hobby lifetime and I have done quite well!!! I have read, researched attended the past 18 Max and SOS shows, won display awards etc...and I have an impeccable reputation up my way....I bought the ring because I changed my collecting focus to SS and wanted an example...after talking to Craig and yes, buying his book I decided/was convinced that it was both a good purchase and a well priced ring...I be-moan none of this, that is not what this thread was about...and it was NEVER about bashing Craig...in hind sight I suppose I should have contacted him with what I had been told but I honestly was pretty peeved about it.....and still am...I have the right to believe what I do...I just thought that I woukld solicit some un-biased opinions. I thanks all of you who have taken the time to reply, all opinions are respected, whether supportive of me or not...that is what this was about..It is my hope that Craig and I can work out an amicable agreement...if not so be it.cheers, Ryan
Posted By: Jon Fish Re: Ethics and opinion - 10/13/2012 06:06 PM
Hi Ryan, I have seen this thread from the link posted from the latest ring thread http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=272069&page=2

Just wondered how you got on since your last statement from Febuary 2012 as you were hoping for an amicable agreement?

I've had to sell things at less than I have paid for them at times, it does ******** doesn't it. I feel for you thats a HUGE loss to take in such a short space of time. Having been through a divorce I know what sort of pressures that can load on you and I guess you found it hard to see straight and needed the money real fast. Think I would have given you 8k for the set pretty quickly though grin But in the same situation I might have done as you just to get the cash I needed in,fast.
Main thing is you will come again mate smile
Posted By: sellick8302@rogers.com Re: Ethics and opinion - 11/29/2012 04:17 AM
Hi Jon, thanks for your kind words. I was in the midst of a separation at the time, unlike my ring and box I still have my wife. Craig had made some overtones to a remedy of sorts but since seeing Steve Wolfe's wife at Craig's table at the Max I have decided to have nothing more to do with him. For me the matter is closed. I no longer defend his name when other people bash him. I have heard too many storys. cheers and all the best! Ryan
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