The economny must be taking a bite out of collecting. Myself and others list on the for sale forum, and boy this stuff is just not selling. I almost always have my items listed well below all major dealers, and still it does not sell. It seems the only way you are going to sell an item is too keep lowering the price, very few items sell at the opening price.
Just my two cents worth.
thanks
Bob
The Max show will be the indicator for this hobby on how well things are selling
yes things are tough but some prices that are on there not so much your stuff but some people are out in left feild.Lets look at the ss sword listed today a wonderful sword listed at what i think is a very good price but it is not moving.So it can't be price on that item. Now lets look at an rzm sa dagger for 750.00 what in the world is this person thinking. BY the way before you go look it up i pulled that out of thin air but we all have seen these things. I think the people have reached a point where unless we need it bad no one is willing to pay this high price for stuff any more.I could buy but I no longer get any enjoyment out of it.I like to follow along on here but to buy just not that much fun anymore since price went through the roof on everything.my two cents
If you look at auction sites* like Gunbroker my estimate is the 90%+ of the items listed,am I'm talking strictly about militaria here, are "NO SALES". This is due to multiple factors such as high starting prices and a substantial percentage of fakes.
Craig Gottlieb just completed his own auction(there was no buyers premium) and my understanding is that he did well. Perhaps Craig will see this and comment further.
*I rarely waste my time looking at "auction sites" such as Manions,Gunbroker,Empire etc as they aren't real auctions in the true sense of the word. When someone starts out with either a close to retail starting price or essentially the same thing with a high reserve this to me isn't an auction. Then they add insult to injury by tacking a 10-15% buyers premium on the top. You can get away with these shenanigans in a rising market to a degree but not in today's market. The auctions I've noticed that get the most activity are the "penny auctions"***. Bidding can be fierce and rarely does anything go for way below it's true value. You'd think some of these operations would wise up to this!
Barrett & Jackson got fed up with the gameplaying that was occuring in the classic car auctions and went to "No Reserve no Minimum Bid" auction a few years back. Again bidding is spirited at their auctions and rarely does a car go for less that it's worth**.
**"Worth" is relative as someone investing $50,000 in the restoration of a car that will realistically sell for $20,000 is always a mystery to us enthusiasts. This happens all the time.
***IMO: It would be an interesting test to let Bob Grant put up one of his nice out-of-the-woodwork finds he comes up with here starting at a penny with the highest bidder getting it and let it run for 3 days to a week.
Jim
I disagree about Gunbroker. This is the only auction that can show true prices, the prices collectors are willing to pay. I am talking only about "no reserve" auctions. RZM SA goes at around 400- 450 and early makers 500-550 dollars in a good condition. As far as Graig auctions, I am not sure. They seemed kind of "fishy" IMO unclear and you do not know who bids on them.
Quote:
"This is the only auction that can show true prices, the prices collectors are willing to pay."
While this is true to some degree it also clearly demonstrates prices collectors AREN'T willing to pay and that's what happens 90% of the time. 90% of the listings on Gunbroker result in a "No Sale"*
Gunbroker has a vested interest in maintaining the largest listing of firearms and militaria online and to do so they don't charge the seller until after the item actually sells no matter how long this takes. The result is that many sellers are on a fishing expedition and just continue to re-list an item since there's no cost involved to them. There are overpriced and overrated firearms that have been listed on Gunbroker seemingly forever. This is an ongoing joke on many of the firearms forums.
*If anyone here want's to see this for themselves go on to either Auctionarms or Gunbroker and watch "Going Going Gone" for an hour or so and you'll see what I'm talking about inre to "No Sales".
Jim
The market is really funny right now, that said, there are clearly green shoots. From what i've seen, the worst if behind us. I seldom sell so I cannot comment to that regard since I have no lithmus test as a standard.
In the last 18 months, I have bought some incredible pieces. Very scarce pattern Heer sabers in literally mint condition, all for between $325-$400. 3 to 4 years ago, I would have ended up paying $525-$625 for them. If a collector doesn't need t sell, than don't. It's still a buyers market, but again, green shoots. I did recently sell a 2nd pattern Army pith, which was in very good condition for $275, which equated to about a $125 profit for me. WAF is probably the best place to list items right now. It reaches a much larger market, a global market at that. I recently bought a really nice Type 44 "Marine Landing Officer" imperial Japanese gunto, and paid about $750...below retail, but not rock bottom either. For me it was worth it.
Things are picking up, it's just a matter or reaching the right audience. Again, my personal feeling is to list your items on WAF if you really want to increase your chances of a sale. It's all about the larger global market (it's also riskier with shipping but I demand insurance, etc.).
Gunbroker is funny. Sometimes you can score great deals, other times the seller is from Mars. I've watched guys list crumby conditioned Army NCO sabers for $750...and it's been up a year and the guy can't figure out why nobody is buying it. Before he gets frustrated, he needs to look in the mirror. Ebay as well. There are still some decent hits every now and then, more often than not because the seller did not use very good listig strategy. It's a matter of sifting through the search criteria and finding the pieces.
Just my 2 pesos.
I think (unfortunately for all of us collectors) that this whole area of TR militaria is in the can. There are very few people willing to pay out to add to their collections now. I know darn well I will not see my money back on anything I bought in the last 5 years so selling up would be a substantial loss in the market today. Maybe it would improve if the economy does but being realistic that isn`t very likely. Those hedonistic days are over. Try and enjoy what you have without counting the cost because you are likely to have it a long time unless you want to give it away.
Well I for one used to get "notification" on new items posted on the For Sale forum. These are no longer coming through, Neither is the "search" function working correctly nor the "view posts" when one clicks on a user name. I do believe that restoring all this will made the new forum much better.
"View Posts" works OK I just clicked on your name.
Need to check the other stuff
On the blue bar, "Active Topices" will give you a list of either topics or posts in descending order by date, latest first. And under "MyStuff", "watchLists", you can set email notifications by forum, topic, or user. The search function is being looked into
I wouldn't be so quick to throw in the towel here. Economics is well know for running in cycles and agreed we're in a particularly nasty downturn right now. When will the situation improve? If I was able to predict that I'd be a multi-billionare like Gates and have the best collection in the world.
Keep in mind that militaria collecting has been a active hobby for a long time and certainly isn't in the fad* category. All one has to do is visit some of the castles in Europe, as I was fortunate enough to do a couple of years ago, and view the arms and armor collections many of which date back to the Middle Ages.
I personally never started collecting with investment as a goal so I haven't paid all that much attention to that aspect of the hobby. I am planning on keeping my collection for my own enjoyment as long as I can and will only divest it if none of my grandchildren are interested.
* Jim Beam bottles immediately come to mind when I think of "Fad Collecting".
Jim
Jim,
Don't discount the Jim Beam "I Dream of Jeanie" bottles
.
I also agree with Jim. As I said, it's still a buyers market, but items are selling. High dollar items seem to have stalled, but average, great conditioned, common items are still moving.
Hold your cards. Don't fold 'cause the swing will come back. Keep in mind it's critical though to inspire young, new collectors and bring them into the fold, or else the future WILL be extremely bleak.
In the eternal words of Forrest Gump, "that's all I have to say about that".
Tom
The market is really funny right now, that said, there are clearly green shoots. From what i've seen, the worst if behind us. I seldom sell so I cannot comment to that regard since I have no lithmus test as a standard.
In the last 18 months, I have bought some incredible pieces. Very scarce pattern Heer sabers in literally mint condition, all for between $325-$400. 3 to 4 years ago, I would have ended up paying $525-$625 for them. If a collector doesn't need t sell, than don't. It's still a buyers market, but again, green shoots. I did recently sell a 2nd pattern Army pith, which was in very good condition for $275, which equated to about a $125 profit for me. WAF is probably the best place to list items right now. It reaches a much larger market, a global market at that. I recently bought a really nice Type 44 "Marine Landing Officer" imperial Japanese gunto, and paid about $750...below retail, but not rock bottom either. For me it was worth it.
Things are picking up, it's just a matter or reaching the right audience. Again, my personal feeling is to list your items on WAF if you really want to increase your chances of a sale. It's all about the larger global market (it's also riskier with shipping but I demand insurance, etc.).
Gunbroker is funny. Sometimes you can score great deals, other times the seller is from Mars. I've watched guys list crumby conditioned Army NCO sabers for $750...and it's been up a year and the guy can't figure out why nobody is buying it. Before he gets frustrated, he needs to look in the mirror. Ebay as well. There are still some decent hits every now and then, more often than not because the seller did not use very good listig strategy. It's a matter of sifting through the search criteria and finding the pieces.
Just my 2 pesos.
what is WAF/ sorry for the ignorance.
RIA has a few good items for sale, and the prices are good I think. One can get a chained SS for around 3.5 - 4 thousands. The prices definitely came down significantly in the US. It is a good time to buy high end items I think. Junk or commond items such as SA or SS daggers came down as well.
The third reich market will always be there it was a time in history when a nation was at break .It pulled itself out of the ashes came into being a world power only to be destroyed again.In the short time that it was in power so much came from this proud nation.One only has to look at the workmanship and you are sold be it daggers or any other thing from that time period so as we die off others will see this and be hooked.But the thing that really hurts us is the fakes and the sky high prices for someone to look at an sa that were made in the millions but now sell 450+ it is hard to get hooked.When a new video game is 45. why would i by that I think our market will tank in my life time.The prices are going up well guess what when you die and grand kids or wife can get 100. for a chained ss guess what?It is out of here the same thing is happening now what these items meant to the vets has been long gone now grand kids see it on internet for 5000. but hey if i get 2000. im happy.Never mind that grandpa removed it off himmler in berlin .it is only a stupid knife and i want a new video game.By the way don't like peso lets go back to two cents.
I looked through quite a bit of the "For Sale" forum last night, not just the recent ads. Thing are still selling fairly well, looking at the posts
Those that linger are, in my opinion:
Badly described
Poor photos or few photos
Overpriced
And one reason that is hard to describe but consists of items that are not in demand. Some of this is the endless low grade common maker Heer/Luft/SA/HJ daggers, common tinnies, beat up items, or things that are not commonly collected.
When I say "Overpriced" I don't mean mean just a tad. Lots of sales from what I see start out priced a little higher that the final expectations and I am sure that there lots of emails behind the scenes
before it sells. If an item is priced way too high, I think buyer just move on.
Whatever, it is certainly a popular and heavily forum !
Dave
If it wasnt broke why fix it...I peek in here once a week if that now. Things are dead and boring, hate to say...wait another 3 yrs.
Many sellers I see not only here but everywhere don't want to wake up and 'Smell the Coffee'. They price their Items at a high level then try to justify it by saying they are so much less than 'Mr. Big Ticket Dealer'.
Unless you haven't noticed that marketing strategy doesn't work anymore.
Don't expect to sell items that are common, well used, unless you have dumping prices on them.
The entry level buyer is mostly gone.
If you have a good clean item that doesn't have 'issues' with it - don't create one buy putting a high price on it.
Price it 'right' going in.
Yes, Nobody wants your old and tired late SA's, 2nd Luft's and Armies for $700. or even for $600.
Let's face it, trying to get cash money out of someone now is hard. I know friends who tell me they are waiting for weeks for collectors to send them the money for items they agreed to buy.
I bought a SA dagger collection 4 years ago - Nice early Excellent+ and above - Full rigs. In 06 I could have sold them all and make a juicy profit. Today it's worth 30% than what I paid.
And sorry I have a problem when I hear from guys who buy from vet sources and can't get their 200%+ marks ups anymore. Perhaps it's time to be happy with 50% ya think?
-Serge-
And sorry I have a problem when I hear from guys who buy from vet sources and can't get their 200%+ marks ups anymore. Perhaps it's time to be happy with 50% ya think?
-Serge-
Well, I`m right behind you on that Serge, except it`s probably a higher percentage. Does someone think we are all blind or stupid?
[/quote]what is WAF/ sorry for the ignorance. [/quote]
wehrmacht-awards.com. Definitely reaches a larger international market.
Cool bottle Swordfish I will see if I can find that one in my area. I have some very gullible friends that i can use this bottle on. hahaha. best Larry
The only true indications of current prices are the auctions with no reserve. Auction such as gun broker, that reaches wide audience sells now a common SA RZM in med. condition for well under $400
look at this auction
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=179129314an SS dagger for about $800
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=175867673#PICnice army dagger for $360
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=182583084nice rzm people willing to pay $360
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=182153006#PICearly maker SA with a hanger $415
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=181726363these are the reality prices and when the dealer places "Sold" with some crazy high price, one must think if this is a true price.
We can argue endlessly about what is price, but the above auctions show it. It went down 30-40% from the peak.
That stuff wasn't even collector grade!
I'VE LOOKED AT ALL THE DAGGERS FROM THE GUNBROKER AUCTION AND THERE'S NOT ONE DAGGER I'D PUT IN MY COLLECTION. I'D NOT EVEN BUY ONE TO RESELL.
IT'S ALL FLEA MARKET JUNK. THINK ABOUT IT, IS THAT SOMETHING YOU'D WANT TO PUT IN YOUR COLLECTION?????
TWO OF THEM LOOK GOOD UNTIL YOU LOOK AT THE BLADES. REMEMBER COLLECTING ANYTHING IS CONDITION, CONDITION, CONDITION......
Ed & Bob are right, This stuff isn`t raising premium prices but good quality hasn`t slipped quite that far.
Things are picking up, it's just a matter or reaching the right audience. Again, my personal feeling is to list your items on WAF if you really want to increase your chances of a sale. It's all about the larger global market (it's also riskier with shipping but I demand insurance, etc.).
Just my 2 pesos.
Likely increase your chances of getting screwed as well, be it as a buyer or seller.
They seem to have multiple "Watch out for this crook !" or "Don't deal with [so and so]! threads going on there daily, especially with international deals.
Guess that makes sense, higher volume of transactions, more failed transactions.
I'VE LOOKED AT ALL THE DAGGERS FROM THE GUNBROKER AUCTION AND THERE'S NOT ONE DAGGER I'D PUT IN MY COLLECTION. I'D NOT EVEN BUY ONE TO RESELL.
IT'S ALL FLEA MARKET JUNK. THINK ABOUT IT, IS THAT SOMETHING YOU'D WANT TO PUT IN YOUR COLLECTION?????
TWO OF THEM LOOK GOOD UNTIL YOU LOOK AT THE BLADES. REMEMBER COLLECTING ANYTHING IS CONDITION, CONDITION, CONDITION......
IMO: Gunbroker has turned into the "Manions" for online sales. It is a dumping ground for unwanted junk edged weapons for dealers and collectors alike.
Jim
then why in the world wound any one use them for a price guide . that was my point just junk you pay for what you get.if your looking for something near mint your going to have to pay for it good stuff always sells.
then why in the world wound any one use them for a price guide . that was my point just junk you pay for what you get.if your looking for something near mint your going to have to pay for it good stuff always sells.
I don't know of anyone who uses Gunbroker as a "price guide" for 3rd Reich militaria. My statement above is that it is a dumping ground for marginal dagger junk and I'll stick to it. Another point is IMO a great deal of the 3rd Reich items offered for sale there are repos.
Jim
Jim go up and read what was said by oleg1 he's the one that posted the gunbroker list. No one said it was you Jim, go guard the border We need you there.
Ok Bob:
At my age I have a hard time remembeing what someone said 5 minutes ago never mind days!
I can't discuss border security other than to say we're working on it as it's like "double secret political probation" and therefore a verboten subject here.
Jim
I would like to find out who 'Kate Vik' is on that site..from Canada.
Lot's of bad items on that site.It's only been bad for the last few years; in the early days, I bought some nice pieces of SS insignia there..
These so called "junk" was selling on this site for double that price in the past. They may not be "rare" but not "junk" just average. I remember in 2007 they were selling like crazy here or on Eban before Eban started banning them. Was a gold mine for dealers. BTW, look at RIA site, they will have some nice and Rare items for sale this September, will be interesting to see what they will go for. The premium there is 15% but it is a true auction, unlike those advertised on this forum.
Oleg, there were lots of good deals before a few bright sparks started to flood the site with fakes and fantasy items and help kick off members who called them on their bulls*it.
Rock Island Auction just sold two nice early makers one Kober (SUhl) and the other Krom, Henrich for 650 USD each that is inlcuding 15% premium. That is what collectors or dealers are paying for them now.
For whatever it's worth, I had a problem with both those daggers. Perhaps that the current repro price.
Auctions with their poor photos are well known "dumping grounds" for those that don't want to have their name associated with the item. And since auction items are sold on a "AS IS-Where Is" basis, there are no inspections or 'Returns'.
You bought it - You got it!
-serge-
this is not true. I have bought from RIA many items and never had problems to return in case of a question.
They have a 30 days inspection period after the sale of an item.
In addition, RIA is different from many other internet auctions, that it is a live auction. You can attend it and physically inspect any item. Unlike most of the internet auctions one have to rely only on a photo provided.
OK, Here's my two cents. Many of the dealers on this site will not agree with me for obvious reasons.
I accidently posted this reply long before it was finished.
Third Reich relics will always have a market. However, that market will be much stronger in Europe where the war was fought than it is here. Part of the reason is that many of the people in the US who collect Third Reich relics are connected to someone who was in the war-father, uncles, grandfather etc.I am 57 and all my uncles were in the war, as well as my father and his friends. Many of my friends in school had stuff in their attic that their dads brought back. As time progresses, people will lose that connection to the war. How many kids in high school right now even know the first thing about the Third Reich? Not many.
Secondly, we have lost our middle class. The people who worked in the manufacturing sector who had a healthy paycheck and benefits, and who could afford boats, guns and other toys. That whole sector of the economy has been turned into food service and retail clerks who get minimum wage and 40 hours a week if they are lucky and 20 hours a week if they are not lucky, and non of them are getting insurance or other benefits.
The top shelf stuff will always have suiters, but the average stuff will not continue to bring the prices that people still want to get. When you see hundreds of SA daggers at SOS with no one standing in line to buy them, priced at $700 and up, you have to wonder if the stuff is really for sale or if the owners are merely trying to show off.
I still like the stuff and will continue to buy if the quality is there and the price is reasonable.However, I do NOT consider it to be an investment, especiallly at my age, ( I am not 15 years old like I was when I started) and there is nothing that I cant walk away from. Every one of my friends who is also a collector is of the same opinion. I am NOT saying the sky is falling, I am just saying thatin my opinion, prices are going to moderate or subside in the forseable future, due to the collapse of the middle class and the gradual loss of interest in World War Two.
Just my two cents, fwiw. Joe S
Good post Joe.
Like Real eastate, common Nazi militaria unless in near mint condition is over valued. The rarer items still sell but not as quick. But try to sell a just 'good' conditioned Army, 2nd Luft or HJ knife today. Nobody wants it unless it's $250. or less. Maybe that's what it should be anyway.
Your correct, People have lost their decent paying jobs or are under-employed, let the gardner go, are perhaps back a payment on the house. It's hard to tell the wife after you come back from the show that you spent $1,000. on an item that for the most part, you can't show to anyone.
-serge-
Joe S
Great post.
Serge
You appear to be the only dealer willing to state the truth.
My two cents worth...I have bought much from those selling on the classified...having just returned from the Max I purchased the following...1 stone mint Heer deluxe hanger from a major dagger dealer for $80.00!!!!!!! I bought two on this site for $125.00 and they were in fair condition at best...and they were advertised originally much higher...I bought a very nice Heer dagger with no issues with very good conditioned hangers for $375......................I have bought Heer daggers on this site in fair condition at best with no hangers for $350...........I saw many other items that have been offerred on these classifieds for less than market prices for sure but definately not less than many dealer prices.....prices at the max on common stuff in very nice condition were fantastic!!!!!! best Max I have seen for buying...and yes some prices were still high...SA both maker and RZM were absurd...saw a decent RZM SA with hanger at $875....chap asked me what I thought was a "fair market price" in this condition and I said $575......he laughed...I am certain that that dagger never left the show and would be a tough sell at $575.cheers to all, Ryan
Joe S
Great post.
Serge
You appear to be the only dealer willing to state the truth.
Thanks Brickie.
In person many dealers I talk to will admit it also. I respect their privacy on the matter.
-serge-
Very nice early conditioned SAs sell for less then 700 USD at RIA includes all the primiums.