A HR at this site... For whatever reason it will only let me copy the whole webpage! IF anyone can do it please post photos of the ring.. It almost looks like it has 2 seams, and maybe a couple other odd things... It is in a box that appears to be period, but it is not a proper HR box....... Theres a 5K bid on it currently...


https://www.ratisbons.com/58th-contemporary-history-auction/thym-ss-honor-ring.html

Gaspare
I tried the link but it say you have to log in ( I guess you have to create an account) to view pics.

Yes, it told me that also. If you create a account, I would assume you get flooded with emails.

I agree Ed.

Looks fake , engraving looks too deep , teeth are off at an angle

'Collector' there are a few weird things as I mentioned... Maybe you can post the photos??

Ed,,Ron,, I joined last year to see their PP ring offerings. Other than me going on a few times I never got a email from them.... Its free of course to sign on and I think they tell you ,,,they don't give your email out, no waste of time emails or 'Sales type BS.. Its a safe and secure site.......

Here are a few images of the ring, guys. Creating a Ratison's account is easy and they won't bug you with ads. You can unsubscribe from their newsletter any time you want. There are a few more photos of the ring; I only show a selection.

The description reads: "Very rare SS Honour Ring awarded on 21. June 1943 to an SS member named "Thym". Also known as "Totenkopfring". The ring was manufactured by Gahr Munich. Engraved inside "S.lb. Thym 21.6.43 H.Himmler". Inner diameter: 17.90 mm. Hardly worn. Excellent condition 1-2. The ring comes with an "old" private case".

maybe its just me,,but there is some weirdness on the skull forehead. 'Collector' see's some weirdness with the engraving and teeth.. - - - Anyone see anything you like or don't like??

Looks like the forehead has been sanded with coarse sandpaper and the teeth compressed.

I agree Dave.

The area around the teeth, as well as the teeth themselves, were processed by hand, so there will be no identical teeth there, without engraving there is nothing to discuss here, there are many original rings that have even more oddities, this is not an indicator of originality.

Here are photos of the engraving inside the ring. Hope it helps.

No, I dont like it, this ring copy

In my opinion, it is a period example, and a nice one at that.
Though wondering if perhaps the date and signature may have been removed at some point?

Name/date are obviously different. There is just too much darkening in the date/himmler signature. That engraving is too crude and I am certain the darking is hiding something. Would be a candidate for a hands on inspection.

Something is going in on the inner band.. even just checking the inner band on the saved topics and around the net they are always polished,,,even heavy worn examples....

Evgeniy,,,,you don't like engraving OR is there anything else?

JR, you like everything but think too something is amiss with the engraving..

[ I'm weirded out by that line to the left of the seam, probably nothing.] We don't have a shot of the 'die' flaw on sig rune,,hopefilly that is non problematic.

So consensus is ring is good? but engraving messed with?

I like all of it. Looks good to me!

Well, I don't know much about the SSHR but I can provide photos for this interesting debate. Here's a shot of the other Sig rune as well as a plan view of the ring.
Cheers guys,
Stephen

p.s. It's worth signing up to Ratisbon's. There's a lot of very cool stuff in there. Pricey though.

I dont like digits and H.Himmler :
it’s as if they were cut again, why and for what purpose, on Himmler’s facsimile you can see fine strokes from the work of the graver, I have not seen such sloppy work in the original rings, this is not in the style and traditions of Otto Garr

Thats very interesting Ron! The line looks like the type they'd put on a fake HR behind the skull to show the seam line.... I agree with E.,the digits and the Himmler don't look right.. I also don't like the tarnish on the inner band..

All very subtle problems.. If I collected them I'd probably let this one go by.. I think the guys with 6, 15 HRs will see these problems and maybe dismiss it..

Think at the time the bidding was up to 5 K euro... Cheap for maybe a good one.. We'll see how it finishes off..

-

Gaspare, 5,000 Euros (about US$ 5,400) is the starting presale bid. The actual live auction starts on March 3.
Cheers,
Stephen

The exterior of the ring is a one looker for me. These rings were cheaply cast, loaded with flaws, and required hand tooling to bring out the features.

I've seen individuals on this forum, WAF, Relics and more, call good rings bad. And most do it with and agenda out of spite, envy, or just plain ignorance. There is a 50 page thread on WAF in which a mint period ring that I once owned was declared bad. It took 12 years for this bull shitte to be corrected, and none of the naysayers ever took a knee an apologized.

I've also seen the honor ring man call bad rings good, and out of jealousy, also called good rings bad.

This is a good ring on Ratisbon. The burnishing has possibly been reapplied perhaps. As a result the Himmler signature and date look different, wide, and atypical. It actually doesn't bother me.

Whatever anyone’s opinion of Evgeniy’s rings might be, he is perfectly entitled to produce and sell them. Given how popular they are, there is clearly a market… and they are sold as reproductions after all. Whether or not they are out there will not deter the fakers.

Eygeniy and Gaspare are respected and knowledgeable members of the forum. They are entitled to their opinions, regardless of whether someone agrees or not.

Please refrain from aggressive or insulting comments. They are of a personal nature, irrelevant to the thread in question and unhelpful. It also takes the thread off topic; we’ve seen where other such conversations have gone in the past... becoming increasingly nasty and utterly pointless. We’re supposed to be adults and this is a forum for discussion.

Thanks,
Stephen

I seriously don't think Evgeniy can ruin the HR market all by his lonesome! And,, we've all seen HRs that were bad authenticated, and HRs that are good denied a cert!! - Dons days are over , period..

But this is a good topic with some very good observations and opinions. There will be a bit of clean up and the topics main 'meat' will stay........ Thanks guys..,G.

Guys,
I used my Moderator privilege of editing or deleting inappropriate posts. Please stay on the topic, which is a good one as noted by Gaspare, and refrain from personal comments.
Much obliged,
Stephen

I have to agree with JR.

Nothing wrong with this ring. IMO, its a period ring and an awesome one. Looks like the engraver, maybe but more then likely used to different sizes of inside ring gravers. Why? Lots of reasons, but no doubt it is still in the typical style. Best!

Agree. Thanks, Stephen.

Please stay on topic and avoid flaming the other guy, etc.

Dave

I have to say that I concur with much of that which JR states. I have only owned two examples one worn and one in an original SS ring box I currently have another that has been seen by many in hand and those who have seen it state that it is good. Others that have seen pictures say bad, good, I don't know, could be...etc..... and the consensus leans towards GOOD for the moment but...... what a mine field I recently experienced the same with an untouched SS-VT tunic I even took my current ring to the owner of a watch store he pronounced the ring as one piece construction, NOT silver and a fake seam and NOT old with a modern machine done engraving since 1992. Well the ring came documented from the son of the recipient in Vienna in 1972 it has been owned by one person since 1992 I took it to a 45 year master jeweller from the diamond exchange in 5 seconds under a loupe he said real seam, separtaely applied skull high grade silver 800 or higher hand done engraving by a master engraver soooooooooooo you tell me I have been hesitant to post pics but I will take some and will have them posted cheers and best, Ryan

2 area of concern Gaspare and I discussed. Looks like a second cut line where something was added/removed. Could be something or nothing. Really needs to be seen in hand to make a fair determination.

The solution seems straightforward, Ron. One of you guys here has to be the top bidder in order to get this ring in hand...

You are correct.

-
Well, looks like things are kind of split here,, But all seem to agree that something happened on the inner band.
- Maybe a reengraving? maybe just unfinished burnishing... Lets see what happens on March 3rd when the bidding starts!

I still wonder about sandpaper or file marks on the forehead and the teeth.

This ring has characteristic of a production made between 20.4.44 and 21.6.44 and doesn't match with the date '43.

Furthermore it cannot be possible the design of the Heilszeichen runic panel (and of the leaves around it) is completely different from originals; this only happens because who made this ring used an original that was worn on the round panel (like mostly are!) and reworked completely the round panel trying to reconstruct it, to make it appear like new in the copy. Who reworked the Heilszeichen was surely not someone who really know these rings, since he draw two "SS" instead the real "Gibor" rune, changing completely the meaning of the entire panel and so of the entire ring. Other problems are present in the swaz panel too.

Again, the liver of sulphur used is a modern one; for trained eyes is visible in the area around the skull with its typical heavy blackening (but easily removable).

Another point: from the pictures there is no match between the condition of the outside and the inside: inside the ring shows hundreds of small dents while the outside looks very well preserved (usually is the contrary!).

Last: the engraving clearly shows 2 different styles, one is the original that the high quality rubber mold can take from the original, the second is the date and the Himmler signature that, who made this ring, tried to copy with no good results; he tried to modify the date (that, again, in my opinion was '44!) turning it into a '43 ring.
He surely made a good work, but not enough to turn a fake into an original.

Brilliant observation

Antonio,,, Thank you so much for showing us by your findings! Yes the devil is in the details! Thanks again, G.

Very interesting discussion. Antonio's knowledge of the SSHR is impressive. The live auction begins tomorrow. The starting bid is now €6,750. Lot of money for a copy...

So............................... Is someone going to contact Rattisbons with the information and inform them that they are selling a copy?????

That would be a decent thing to do for the poor sucker who ends up paying thousands for it. Does anyone believe that Ratisbons even cares…

I agree but I don't think they will care ( I hope they would do the right thing if notified). I think spending that much money and someone not doing their homework and asking for advice probably gets what they deserve.

-
I do see they 'withdraw' some items....

- I've been in contact with them about moving some of my rings... SO,, I sent their main man a link to this topic... We'll see what happens...........

I contacted them as well, and sent a link to our forum thread.
Stephen

This is likely a naive question, but I was under the impression that there is a list somewhere of SSHR recipients and the date when the ring was awarded. If so, wouldn't this Thym guy and the date of his ring award be listed there? If he existed and if his SSHR was awarded in 1944, as noted by Antonio, that kills this ring straight away.

You are correct. There are Dienstalterslisten der SS available and that would include ring award date. Someone on the forum should have access ot this info and hopefully will post it.

Curious about these marks. I just noticed them. Are they casting flaws?

Hi Stephen, I don't think you can see "casting flaws" on this ring, because I think the faker worked on the wax model, exactly as Gahr did, and we perfectly know that a good casting process doesn't produce what we call "casting flaws". We tend to believe casting processes are low quality processes, but actually this is only a myth...
A good casting production process has characteristics and micro flaws (of course!) that a die stricking process cannot have.
In this case, the flaws you highlighted on the Hagal rune are not "flaws", the dot is IMO the result of a hit, the one on the right arm of the rune is matching the shape of the originals (the rune was good enough in the original, so the faker no needed to rework the entire runic panel here), and he reworked only the left side and the leaves on the left.

Thank you, Antonio. I appreciate the education I'm getting here.

Well, it looks like the message from Gaspare and/or me may have had the desired effect.. The bids got to 8,750 Euros and then the ring was withdrawn. How about that. The Mighty Power of the GDC Ring Forum!

I am sure it will get into circulation at another time, another place.

But it has been flagged as a fake/altered ring so hopefully no one will will get taken by it. Of course, folks who don't follow forums or want advice will be the prime suspects.
Good job folks!

Guys,
I dug around on the Internet and I found a few links relevant to the Dienstaltersliste Der SS Der NSDAP. In the 1943 DAL, there is no one named Thym. Not in 1942 either. I couldn't find the 1944 DAL. Regardless, if there was no Thym in the SS in 1943, even if he joined in 1944, he would not have been eligible for an SSHR so quickly. If Antonio's assessment isn't convincing enough, maybe this is another nail in the coffin for this ring.
Stephen

He is not on the 1934 List.

Folks,

It got all quiet around here all of a sudden. Just to let you guys know, I got an email from Ratisbons thanking us for notifying them that this ring is a copy and for giving them the opportunity to withdraw it from the auction. Nice to know that there are some organisations that put integrity before profit.
Stephen

Stephen
I agree. There were just too many problems with that ring to openly declare it to be good. After Antonio provided the assessment and pointed out problems, put the nail in the coffin. Power to the forum and members who prevented this item from the market. If it surfaces again, at least we will know what to look for. Ron

I had written them a long email and provided a link to the topic.... Told them we have the leading members on the HR,,, and also guys that make the best copies. To just read carefully then make their own decision.. Its not worth the money and lose some of their reputation. Guess they heeded our info!!


Good work to all involved whether you liked it or not. I'm proud of all of you,,we saved someone a bunch of money! and the reputation of that auction house.. Good work members!!

Hi guys,
I had the opportunity to personally examine the ring under a microscope and I can confirm that it is indeed a copy. A very sneaky copy. I would like to thank Ratisbon's auctionhall for allowing a personal inspection.

Upon initial inspection, one has the subjective feeling that one is holding an original in one's hand. The ring is really nicely cast, a very good job was done. The ring should give the impression that it is a scaled-down original. This corresponds to recasting of the skull and seam and a very small diameter - 17.9 mm (weight 10,5 g). Even the engraving is often over-engraved if it is damaged during reduction. I have already encountered such cases in my collecting practice. As I say, nothing that should seem particularly suspicious.
However, upon closer examination under a magnifying glass and later under a microscope, one discovers something very suspicious, which immediately catches one's eye - a modified Heilszeichen rune. And here I have to agree with Antonio in everything he wrote. The wax matrix has actually been modified to be nicer and better preserved. In doing so, however, the engraver made several fundamental mistakes, described by Antony.

This is a really dangerous copy that would probably confuse any beginner, maybe even an advanced collector. Here you are some photos...

Martin Toman

At least it was identified and posted here for future reference. Thanks for the update.

Martin , Thanks so much for your post.. Its a dangerous fake. It could easily be turned into a ground dug HR and the defect might not be seen. Any newly turned up HR must be scrutinized fully..

I just checked their up-and-coming auction: https://www.ratisbons.com/59th-contemporary-history-auction?searchterm=ring

So far every PP ring is a fake. There is a HR to an infamous personality, Fritz Freitag. Engraving looks a bit light.... Anyone else seen it?

Yeah, I saw that one too. I mentioned it in the post about their fake Luftwaffe ring. The starting bid is €7,800. if you look through the various Ratisbon auctions, there are a lot of fake or copied rings. In fact, I‘m not sure that I saw one that I thought was authentic.

I came across an old post from 2006 showing another Honour Ring. Like the only that started this thread, it is named for Thym. Same date too (21.06.43). It is also a fake. A very bad fake. Interesting coincidence.

https://forum.germandaggers.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=135614#Post135614

That is one ugly ring!

Indeed. That Thym guy has a lot to answer for! 🤣