Hello fellow collectors, I intend to buy Luftwaffe ring from other collector. This is Air Gunner ring in nearly perfect condition. Please share Your opinion on this piece. I believe it is 100% legit but I want to sleep well paying this money for it. All opinions are welcome.

Best example I've ever seen. I like it

I'm concerned about the silver hallmarks. They seem pretty mushy to me, Laurin mark quite unreadable. Very similar to a post-war piece Gaspare and I saw at the max, and another member here quite unfortunately ended up purchasing.... if the ring is near mint condition... why are the marks so badly worn/mushed up? Good luck Piotr, hope my concerns prove to be nothing. (I've just seen fakes at this point outnumber good rings 10 to 1 now or more!)

Markings are very poor, band to thick and this deeper section of the band...are there dots? (pics are very small)...for sure not for this lot of money the ring is offered.
For me a "superfake".
Let`s wait G`s opinion.

I have received better picture of the markings

Oh man.. That's not a promising closeup. Forget the Laurins Mark- that F star (is it supposed to be a star?) looks really muddled and mushed up. I think odal made good points about the band thicknesss too. Maybe Gaspare will say differently tonight- I just don't want u to end up w a postwar piece if we can help it my friend! Best of luck on it-
Byz/Mike

I was told that dots signify casting, is that correct?

When ring band thickness became to good point of the authenticity? I have two same rings: right is mint and left from the ground. I don't think that dust inside side lines and band thickness can be the the sign of fake. Details are great, hallmarks are not the best, agree.

so is the luft ring cast or dye struck, what are the dots in the red circles?

Odal pointed to casting artifacts in his opinion, but actually this is dust and mud, I saw another photo without them

dam,, takes so long forme to get on!!,,

Yeah man,,this is a superfake,,,save your money.!

If not already in the superfake gallery thread- can it be added? Hell of a nice fake, someone's gonna get stuck with it!

Thank You Gentlemen, it was really hard but I let this ring go...

Interesting to see Odal and Gaspare ring in camparison with this. It's easy to say "superfake" without any facts than proof that this ring is ok. Really want to know what's wrong with this ring?

I would suggest to take only a look on that markings. They for sure not made by a die.

Sergey with all the respect for You and seller, for this amount of money ring has to be a textbook without any doubts. If it is good as the seller says he will sell it anyway. The main problem is that he do not accept returns what makes this sale more suspicious. I'm not saying that Mihail wants to cheat anybody but this is uncommon among collectors trades (first red flag). All the rest was told above by more experienced people in this field of hobby, people I trust and people I know they are honest.

Agree with you Piotr, but I want to see facts, camparison with original. Why only I want to see the ugly truth based on facts and not on only words? Why serious ring was identified as "superfake" only by visual point without comparing? I don't have this type of ring in my collection, so I can't compare with original one. I like Gaspare opinion about the ring and it looks like preconceived notion without any statement, just "superfake" and that's all. Also same with Odal, "I don't like dots inside the side lines and band thickness". I told that this is just a dust with mud and stated about band thickness in previous post and if you want I can show side photos without any dust on side lines. I want to see rings from Odal and Gaspare collection othervise I will think that they just trying to ruin Mikhail selling with preconceived notion. Every time one said fake other will catch it and party is over. I not pushing you to make other dicision Piotr just want to tell that opinions does't ended on both oldschool colectors. Also there was incident between seller and Odal and I think this is revenge. Nothing personal just my opinion from the side.

Of course would be nice to see comparison with no doubt original ring. Unfortunately I can't help because I don't have one to copare. Issues between odal and Mihail do not interest me. All I am interested in is good spend my money and sleep well.

Sure that will be best the best facts which can proof that this ring is good or not.

re triggerself,...can you show pics of the same ring minus the dots

Calm down friends.
I have 2 rings of this pattern and i will show this evening or over the weekend a comparision between this ring here and a original.

Again, no doubt for me this shown ring here is a fake.

Sure, here the photos

Compare this area

Here is the same hallamark on westwall skull ring

I'm too dont like it ring, look like a copy

This Westwall one is a fake too.
My good Sergey, where did you get this one?

That this is a fake you can see on the first look of the backsite of the shoulder decors.

Agree obviously bad. The ww skull is a needed skull pattern for me but it is reproduced and fantasized to death. Some collectors just avoid ww skulls altogether, it's probably not the worst decision to make just avoiding it completely... (I know G advised this to me a long time ago and really I hate to say he's probably right.)

May be you have something to compare with? Why you think that this is copy?

Two year ago it was original and now it's fake...interesting

Read this old thread careful:

"seems to be....", not this is.

So "seems to be original" and "fake" are the same words in your mind? What changed your mind this time when you saw westwall?

Ok, if you want to go from the 100th to the 1000th. So i will post pics for comparison of a Westwall Ring of this pattern to as soon i find the time.
But this all doesn`t make the thread starting ring good.

What does it mean?

So what is the answer? Why you change your mind about westwall ring?

It will be useful too, because I have also two westwall skull rings, one with similar marking other with Frey marking only.

I'm not trying to impose my view to other I'm just want to investigate this ring as much as I can. Most I hate when good rings became fake without any attempts to proof opposite and otherwise - when fake rings became original. Also it's harder to defend the ring than offend and search "red spots". For me ring looks very detailed and I'm agree with you with that there is missing bubbles under the left wing. I'm requested photo of this place, so to be continued

guys,,I've been collecting rings since 1976. I still don't know everything. In the 17 or so years I've been here I've shown my rings many a times. Sadly many of those old posts are now gone for one reason or another.
anyway... A Ln mark is something special. It meant special finishing and they were very proud to put their mark in the ring! The last mark is supposed to be a Ln mark in this ring. Wjat do you see??, Nothing. That is because the guys casting it can't get it right.
Myself, and Odal and others know the counterfeiters watch this forum. They have been watching for years. Yes maybe we don't always go in to explanations about whats wrong and that's the reason.. The ring is a great fake,,a SuperFake. Glad you save your money..

Here the detailed photo which show bubbles under the left wing. Left bubble is damaged by hit from left side. Other are in good shape. Just take a look to details - very very sharp. I like the line around the right bubble. Each edge is very detailed and smooth.

Here another photos.
Check details, such pattern can't be reproduced by casting.

Very good pics.
But i see nothing what isn`t possible in professional casting.
Still miss the one "fruit" under the left wing and have seen a cast hallmarking.
Here the correct one for such ring and for this Westwall/-front ones too.

Fruit is damaged by hit from the left if you don't see

Here is also correct hallmarks for westwall/westfront skull rings.

Hey Sergey,real sorry, but both of this Westwall skulls don`t look good to me

Why I'm not surpriced :))

Your ring looks casted, here screaming artifacts

This ring also fake?

For me not worth any more discussion.

You're predictable

Trigg,,Odal,,Please guys.. We are colleagues here. No one is here to hurt the other. We are here to help each other. Lets not give up here..

1st,,Trigg,,,yes you can cast things even much smaller with even better detail. I've seen it personally with small/miniature parts.
These rings are made from working dies. Tools are used to make/cut the master dies. On your photo #322997? It is horrible, waxy looking thing. YES, there is a tool that makes a hatchwork [#] type look. It is small,,and sometimes they have to overlap but it does not ever look like that!

Ln marks are usually in pre war rings. Especially late 20s, early 30s. Here is a advert showing that their mark in on many different pieces of jewelry from small to big..

another,, this shows the Ln mark,,lower right....

here is a Ln mark on a authentic ring. It is not in the series type like shown on your ring but just to show another way it can be in a ring..

this is the typical Ln mark in the series we used to seeing in Skull, WW, and in some of the Luft rings.. No matter how small, how worn the mark can just about be seen.. Does the series on the Luft ring you show even look remotely like this? It doesn't. Its burnt, blank, non distinguishable. This is because that Luft ring is cast my friend. Because of the hallmarks, because the members here like Odal and Evgeniy etc. who have been collecting for years
are trying to help you with. You can take it negatively, but that's not how they are advising you. They are telling you out of helping one collector to another.. I too agree 100% that the Luft ring shown at the beginning is a good fake.

IF you really like it,,go ahead and buy it. IF it make you happy then that's what it is all about. BUT,,if you ask an opinion,,,your going to get them good or bad....

Trigg,,, here's one of the best fakes of a WW/WF ring there is! it is only let down by its hallmark ,which I will not show but is in the series with the Ln and mess like the Luft shown...

I've had an email,,saying,,"how do we know such a Luft ring even existed..


We're here to help,,my keyboard is messed up and it took me almost 2 hrs to make these posts but want to help..

Much thanks to Odal for posting photos and Evgeniy for their opinions..

Gaspare, this is Odal ring and he's showing me this ring as original. Here the proof. So where is the truth now? Or may be original rings became fake when need to represent discussed ring as fake OR it became original when need to proof some ring an make it original?

I'm still don't see original macro photos of the front side of original ring, why Odal or you is hiding them? May be because they are the same? Of course they are the same!

Interesting to see that mystical toot that makes a hatchwork [#].

So where is the photos of the original one? Really want to see original texture and edged lines of the front side of the ring. Only small piece of details.

How about Hapur's opinion as n expert craftsman? He could perhaps explain the details more..?

Evgeniy talked more than collect. He has few rings. I have more than 100 ring in my collection so I also understand what I'm talking about. You, Odal and Evgeniy can have own opinion, but I'm still not see the facts. There is a lot of garbage - photos with Ln marks from WW era womens magazines, hallmarks from other rings, but not original macro photo of front side of original air gunner ring. I see only double standarts - in one moment Odal showed original ring, in othe you showed the same ring only as "superfake". Strange...

I believe that the seller of the luft ring that started this thread is sniper33. it would be useful to hear his opinion .he may be able to clear this up.

I do not see any reasons to prove this ring originality because I'm sure that this ring is good. To prove that this ring is not original should do others who don't believe. At the moment I saw only words without facts (macro photos of undoubtful "original" ring) and other spam

the WWskull photo I posted had this photo as the hallmarks.. IF, if they are then in my opinion I don't like it..

Trigg,, I collect rings,,not tools.. I've seen them. One is a wheel that makes the edge design of the DAK ring. Others are the tools to stamp content marks on already rounded rings, there are daps, punches,and a small hatchwork stamp [#]. It is small and used to make the marks on that luft ring.[probably/originally used to make a holding surface for enamel] On occasion they will overlap but you will see that its from a tool. The Luft ring at the beginning the hatch work is from what me friend?! What would leave crooked, wavey, mushy lines..

You and the seller,,you see we don't have to prove its a fake. In all collectables the burden of proof is on the presenter of the piece to prove its good,,we say its not. Have opinions from those who have the ring or have seen many. [also some good photos]
- And by the way,,because Evgeniy does not have 100 rings does mean he doesn't have knowledge. He's been at it a long time and has seen much and understands much. My daughter has her Masters in art restoration,,she doesn't own any Picassos but has been able to tell a few owners that theirs were copies!

Still I don't see pics from front side of original ring, still want to see details of # pattern on original ring. Just small detailes photo
Words are good but I'm believe in facts not in opinion. Opinion are good when there is no facts. Also check hatchwork texture and you don't find any similar lines and squares.

For me this ring is more accurate and more detailed than Odal rings. I want to see macro shot from one of Odal air gunner ring. I bet it has worse details and it looks more bogus on macro photo that this ring.

+1 well said.... fakers read these threads no doubt they'd love to know how to make an authentic ring, I agree that the burden of proof lies on proving the authenticity... what makes these (IMHO fake) rings authentic? Period ads with the Laurin mark and seeing it on a real ring are proof. Show me a period ring ad or photo with that mushy stuff and you will have a point... beyond that, we can just say a piece is "self-authenticating" but really.... how did that turn out for the author if the above mentioned quote;) ?

Trigg,, lets stick to this Luft ring...
Both these photos are of the ring correct?..

IF you can not recognize this it is because maybe your inexperience.. Please show these photos or ring to any competent jeweler..
Both this photos are indications of a cast piece. I also agree with the dots show by others ,,pure signs of a cast.
Because you don't agree it doesn't change the facts,,the ring is cast = postwar..End of story..

I have to say of all people I have met or conversed with in the ring collecting world over the last few years I respect G's opinion more than anyone.....trust me guys if he's says cast fake that's what it is

But hey its your money......fakers are getting really really good!

Both photos are of the ring, correct.

I'm already showed this photo to two jewelers in Riga and they told me that so small details can't be done by casting - impossible, there should be places where silver can't fill, but there is no such places.

This is not a fact, just your subjective opinion. This ring will be original until you or Odal don't show to me the exactly the same places of the ring which can proof that this ring is not good. No macro photos no facts. No facts - ring was and stays original until you or Odal proof with macro photos oposite. If you don't want so please do not tell that this ring is casted fake. Really, I'm more than full with your opinions which proofs nothing. All I want to see are macro photos of orignal (in your opinion) ring - that's all.

Hi Trigger. A few years ago I was collecting rings. I had about 300 rings in my hand. With the help of Gaspare, Odal and other collectors I gained a big knowledge and knew how to look at a ring and how to recognized a fake. Your ring is definitely casted. We don't need to go into more detail. But the hallmark is enough. Casted, pits, mushy and definitely miles away from the correct hallmark. I know it is sad to hear when you've just got a nice ring and you are proud of it and then you just find out it is a fake. But this is the fact.

Hey, Wolf. There is so many experts around who can recognize fake but can't proof it by showing orignal example. C'mon experts, show us how should looks like original ring or you afraid that your ring looks worse than this ring or looks the same?

"We don't need to go into more detail" - Sad to read unproven information only based on gained experience.

P.S This is not mine ring

P.S.S I believe Odal ring looks more casted than this ring.

Okay Trigger

Enaugh!
Usually i am not the guy to expose someone.
But now it`s time to talk about your with help of some friendly guys very quick learned knowledge about the stuff we discuss here.

A few weeks ago you baught from one seller in ebay 3 boxed rings, you were very happy with and presented them as originals at at least 2 places in the web.

Too bad, they came from my city (Heilbronn/Germany). I know them (not sold as originals) and had times ago the chance to have them in hands, inspect and maybe buy them rather cheap.
I did not.
Postwar, fakes, trash....however you will name them.

So now, do it like men do, show this rings here and let some experienced collectors tell their opinion about.

Thanks

Here the still srceaming ebay pics:

XXX
sorry,,,please lets stick to subject..

Sorry Marc
I have to correct you.
This starting ring is not Triggers.
It belongs to sniper, Triggers friend.

And if it is needful i can tell a real interesting story about an other superfake.

I've not found a reason to question G�tz' intent ever on rings- and to be honest, he has been a very patient and kind mentor to me, especially when G was out with hip surgery.... besides the fact that he has saved me hundreds of dollars on potentially bad rings- I see no reason to question him any further for loads of reasons; - all of which have been stated... here's one more- we want to help Piotr. G�tz ring isn't even for sale. No one has a dog in this fight (except Piotr who we all hope did not buy this ring). As to these pieces posted above (the skulls) one thing I've learned above all others is this- skulls are very tough, but these are not. Top to bottom - ring 1....(??) I can't even comment. Ring 2 is iffy off the bat but I would need confirmation of my suspicions by seeing the back and inside. I would be very surprised if it was not postwar. Ring 3- even less confident than ring 2- and guys, believe me-- I am being as charitable as a nun on xmas. Furthermore, I feel we have lost the plot here to the original discussion and are sort of beating a dead horse as they say- at best this has become redundant and it's at risk of becoming much more personal IMHO than our moderator or admins here tolerate. Out of respect to the interested parties, and of course to our esteemed mod who does this all out of care for the hobby- I'm going to make a motion that the thread be closed. I think we have heard enough (and trigg- really where this is going isn't good for anyone- I know G�tz and he does not want to ever "go there." It will be better for the reputation of all.) anyway motion on the table...any seconds?

Thanks Byz!
Much to kind words.

If i can remember right, i am some years older, Trigger was bannend in the war relics Forum about a year ago.

Excuse me
I want him here.
At least as long he has showed good pics of this 3 rings i mentioned.

Your rings at least two are bad, sorry. Westwall which Gaspare showed as superfake is your ring, also air gunner ring with casting flaws also I believe is fake from this photos. May be you should manage your rings first than "help" to other people?

Nice that you have inspect my rings and told your "professional" opinion which definetely proofs that they are fake

Oh man.....junior needs to show some respect.....odal and G are 2 people who deserve more respect than being called quotation professional.....they ARE professional in the ring collecting world, their experience and reputation are above reproach.....

XXX

P. , this is not going to happen here.. Please if you can contribute then great.

Every time I saw "waiting for Gaspare/Odal opinion" they are last hope to others? C'mon why we should trust his or other people opinions? Why don't show comparison with original ring (macro photos of some complicated places) which proofs if ring good or bad? I'm only for comparison with original when ring is not screaming fake. That's all! Nothing special.

For instance there is nice original ring from vetaran or attic (real ring from WW2 period) ring and then Odal or Gaspare told that this ring is fake because they don't like something (for instance story or scratch or hit on the ring). Does this ring became fake and you will throw away this ring or it will stay original for you and others who believe? Simple question

As I told above I'm for the truth only, I like to compare rings, find differences (red flags) and show it why I think so. Every time when I say fake/original I can show photos which can proof something for request.

I'm really don't like this situation, everything can be differently. With all respect to others I realy hate fakes, but more I hate when good rings became fake and otherwise. I do not have in mind to offent Odal or Gaspare this was just my "IMHO". Nothing personal

If this ring is fake - great, but there is still unanswered questions. How looks original? Where is comparison? Why type of the hallmark can be only one type? Great that people left there his opinions, but opinions should based on facts/proofs and not on attitude (like/don't like how it looks) to the ring.

Very sad that Odal or other collector can't proof that discussed ring in not original by showing his macro photo comparison. That's all I want, no opinions, no guess-works - only simple comparison of some complicated places on the ring. Just choose two macro photos of discussed ring, make your own and compare. That's all.

Trigg problem is you are making this personal.. Its not we're here to help... Sad that who ever you brought it too couldn't see they are cast. Like I wrote c'ompetent' jeweler.

Maybe show the photos on a silver forum. Sorry but who ever told you they aren't cast is wrong. Don't know what I can say to have you believe me. Those 2 photos show its cast. I mean come on,,look at the hallmarks,,clearly cast.
We got to keep this proper guys .. AND,, lets keep it to the Luft ring. IF there is another problem with a ring open another topic..

Ok guys I have started this thread and it is time to close it. For Your information I passed over this ring. This lesso would cost me too much. One thing I know for sure I will always ask here about silver rings I have not experienced yet. Thanks and good day. Let the peace be with You !!!!

I'm not making this personal, really. I have one information you another, It's okay that information can differs - this makes discussion more interesting (of course if it goes friendly). This is hot topic and definetely deserves attention and if some want explanation (we are all here to help each other) we should gave it.

About hallmarks, I saw at least 4 rings (skulls and luftwaffe) with same hallmark, all was rought and not perfect. That's why I'm trying to discuss them deeper.

Sorry, what is silver forum?

Also, please guys [I'm guilty myself too],,,We MUST keep it to one ring per topic. Once others get brought into the mix things get to be a circus and nothing gets done..

To bad you don't put much in to my opinion. All I can offer is my 30 plus years of collecting these things. Collecting them when most would say 'hey throw them in the scrape pile!'
I also have family that were diamond setters in NYC back in the 30s to early 60s. And, as I hate school 20 years ago or so I actually enrolled in a amateur jewelry making class! I sucked as it does take a bit of artistic talent,,and sorry to say I'm no artist!
I'm not writing all this to toot my own horn. Every so many years we get a whole different group of members here and we don't all know anything about each other. But maybe to show you Trigg I'm not playing here for anything or anyone. I started here years ago because I hate rip-off artists, hate to see someone spend their hard earned money and get bull ******** in return. Man! what a bad feeling that is!! and we have ALL had that feeling!

Some rings we can agree to disagree on. But things like those #lines,,,,and that hallmark series,,are just ridiculous!! They my friend are pure signs of a cast..

So,,a bit of a introduction of myself... So,can you share with us Trigg? Have you been collecting long? What type to you mainly concentrate on [campaign, Skulls,etc.] I think I remember [please collect me if I'm wrong] you liking Latvian rings..

See, IF we don't know each other because of distance or whatever and never share a bit about ourselves how or why would anyone believe what any of us say!

Sniper33. So this is your ring:

"I do not see any reasons to prove this ring originality because I'm sure that this ring is good. To prove that this ring is not original should do others who don't believe. At the moment I saw only words without facts (macro photos of undoubtful "original" ring) and other spam"

Again,,we don't have to prove it is fake.. You should be offering evidence it is good. The burden of proof is on you my friend..
Please, why do you think this is a authentic ring?

I even showed good photo of my ring. And what did you do? The words and no more. I do not see sense to continue to talk to my ring. Everyone will have an opinion!

Hey, as told.
Be no "barking little dog" (sorry this words), be a man and show closeups of this 3 rings.

Yes, we have a opinion.

XXX ,

,Come on guys this really isn't needed..

XXX,,, it isn't 'great'.
We try and keep a professional attitude here and the rest of the forums on this site. These comments aren;t needed

XXX, Not 'entertaining' one bit..

I have respect and like all you guys. No preferential treatment to anyone.
Myself, Dave, Vern the rest of the Moderators here are ALL here to help, learn some things themselves and,,see some cool stuff!!!

Good time for everyone to re-read the rules. The parts about: Be friendly, polite, positive, and helpful. If you think someone's artifact is not correct or your opinion differs from his or hers, be sure to explain why. Please do not make posts that are calculated to make others angry, damage their reputation, or start arguments.


Also keep in mind that the reason that Gaspare is the Moderator is because of his extensive knowledge of this subject.

It appears to me that we have:

1 original poster seeking an opinion about an air gunner ring.

2 gents - Triggerself and Sniper 33 (who owns the ring) who are trying to "talk it good" without much proof.

Everyone else including Gaspare and some other knowledgeable members saying the ring is not correct.

I'm going to turn this off until about noon on Sunday EST so everyone can relax.

After I re-open this any insulting or argumentative post get the poster a 10 day vacation

Dave
Admin

Please note from above:

After I re-open this any insulting or argumentative post get the poster a 10 day vacation


Dave

Trigg,,, again:

,,I gave a bit of a introduction of myself... So,can you share with us Trigg? Have you been collecting long? What type to you mainly concentrate on [campaign, Skulls,etc.] I think I remember [please collect me if I'm wrong] you liking Latvian rings..

See, IF we don't know each other because of distance or whatever and never share a bit about ourselves how or why would anyone believe what any of us say!

Sniper,,, Yes you showed a photo of the ring,,and yes you said your sure its a good ring.. Again, I offer you to tell us why you think the ring is authentic..
How does it compare to other known originals,,why is the hallmarkslike that? Do you know what the series of hallmarks represent

Yes, sure. I've been collecting not so long - ~5 years. I'm not only collecting only the rings, but also SS items. I have serious Latvian SS collection. My ring collection starts with Latvian pre war rings. Also my passion is collecting skull rings (I like them more than others), but I like to collect other rings - LW, Westwall, Norge, Estonian etc. But my main theme is collecting Latvian and skull rings. My rings ratio: ~50% Latvian ring and ~50% other ring. I'm also an admin of 1st Facebook ring group. Now my group has ~2500 users. About 2 years I'm trying to help people with his questions about the rings.

thanks for the response..
Aahh the Facebook site.. I guess that's all the screen shots my buddy has been sending me. Trigg, The total amount of rings I've sold/traded in my over 15 years here you can count on your hands. So writing I'm making comments/judging rings to make my or whom evers a higher price is pretty ridiculous..
anyway lets stick to this ring..

Sniper wanted to sell it but it didn't pass the grade. I've asked Sniper why does he think the ring is authentic,,Not sure IF we'll get an answer..
Why do you think the ring is authentic? and how do you explain how the hallarks look?

After complete mess in messages and opinions, I've read all posts again and tried to summarize all opinions. As I told later that I don't know how should looks small details of original ring that's why I'm and sniper33 requested members to show them. Also want to tell that sniper33 as me want to know the truth. I've have no idea how should looks details on original ring, but all we have is hallmark - wrong type or correct also unknown. I'm talked with sniper33 about it and he kindly asked me to compare the hallmarks, because nobody share detailed photos of the original ring hallmarks (not from other rings like it showed Odal, but from the same air gunner ring) which can be used to detailed comparison. sniper33 sent to me detailed macro photo of his ring hallamark. I've took a macro photo of my hallmark from westwall skull ring (on the top on photo) and compared with sniper33 (on the middle on photo). Also from his archives sniper33 sent to me same hallmark from another air gunner ring (on the bottom on photo). After my comparison I've found that hallmark from my ring is not textbook example, but clearly visible and without pittings. After this comparison I can tell that both (middle and bottom on photo) air gunner hallmarks are bad. Now I'm agree with those who pointed on hallmark. But front side details are still unknown for me. I'm still don't know the difference. I think after this comparison sniper33 also will agree with me that the hallmark is casted.

Why I and sniper33 not agreed at once at the beginning of the topic? Because this ring was bought from well known German auction Ratisbon's from Klaus Butschek. He's selling ONLY original items and ring was bought as ORIGINAL. That's why I and sniper33 wanted detailed investigation because no one wants to slander well known seller with good reputation without any proofs. Now we have a fact (hallmark comparison) which proofs that hallmark looks different. Hallmark seems to be casted and we clearly see it in this photo, no extra words and opinions needed - everything is on this photo. That's why I and sniper33 asked to show photos of original ring.

I know Gottlieb (Piotr) very long time, we dealt, communicating time to time and you think that I'm let to buy a fake if I know it? Of course not. Now we have (I think so) strong evidence which proofs that this ring is fake. If someone shared some detailed photo of front side we would have more evidences. Of course this is no secure, because counterfeiters around, but small photo with hatchwork # on original ring I think was enough.

In conclusion I want to state that only in comparison we can find the truth and strong evidences, not in opinions or suggestions.

Now I'm happy and I'm suggest sniper33 to contact Klaus Butschek and return his money back. Hope this will be useful to all collectors.

2 different hallmarks from 2 rings or one hallmark pics in different light and a little different angle of view?
Build your opinion yourself.

they look the same ? stange

Here is original photos. Still don't see the difference? First photo detailed hallmark from ring from this topic. Second photo detailed hallmark from ring from sniper33 photo archive.

Trigg,, forget stories,,and forget Dealers. To date EVERY dealer and auction site has at one time or another sold [knowing or unknowingly] a fake ring period..

For me ALL the airgunners hallmarks are poor cast in fakes whether they are the same or different ring..

During WW1 the law was to hallmark silver with the content and the half moon and crown. Here is shown the actual law.
OK,,during the 3rd reich they loosened things up a bit,,the hallmark didn't have to be on anymore.. Now some old time jewelers included it anyway.
So these hallarks you show are supposed to be:

The silver content [835],,
next supposed to be the half moon and crown,,
and then the semi half circle with Ln in it..

You can not even make out what any of then are except the content and that's all messed up too. IF you have to return anything a mention of all this is all the proof you would need. They are all horrible looking,,the Dealer must/has to know it does not have to be from the exact ring to prove!

Here is the WW1 law-

from Nazi era,,,2 good known hallmarks... The dealer must / has to know it doesn't have to be the exact hallmarks from the exact ring,,bad is bad. And good is good...
IF the dealer has a problem,,ask HIM to prove to you it is good!

You know what is for me interesting ? Why on each presumed as a good hallmark number "3" differs from number "3" on so called casted hallmark ? The shape of this number is different.

This is a different stamp. So "3" different.

First one is a stamp but this second one is not by the way

I thought it was determined that it was cast, not stamped

Yes it is a fake cast-in mark. No two ways about it. If u see it in your loupe before u buy, great- hand ring back to seller and walk away.

It is necessary to consider a caveat. Hallmarks wear. A reprint of the old stamp might not look as a printed new. Surely they are constantly updated. The ability to use several at once.

Yes- caveat emptor....

Gottlieb, Byz,etc,,correct, not way that is a stamp,,pure cast,,burned, pitted etc..

A flat top 3 or a different numeral from maker to maker is fine..

I borrowed some tools a few years ago for a couple days.. I had been saving up scrap jewelry of all types, gold, silver,,earrings, bracelets, rings anything and everything etc.. I was stamping everything! After a short while you know when something is stamped..
Experts stamp very evenly and with a perfect hit.. Too light a hit and you might not get the whole stamp evenly.. The one here with the Ln,,was hit just a tad hard,,and you see it kind of pillows out around it [its actually something you want to see!]..

There is no die stamp made/around that will produce hallmarks that look like the ones on the Luft ring..

Hope you guys can return and get your money back for the ring..

I know a least 5 Frey hallmark types with/without Ln mark (all those I have), why you think that there should be only 1 good type of Frey hallmark - 835 F* Ln?

I agree,,,,I'm not communicating correctly,,,
- there are early examples late etc. I'm talking about you will not see anything stamped like that because it is not stamped. It is cast in..
Actually,, I had 2 of these air gunner rings. One was unmarked,,the other had the early F star mark [in rounded off rectangle]. Personally I like the messing examples and that's all Ihave at the moment. I'd love to get one with all the wash still on it! [very hard to find!]

this is one of my first rings.. All beat up,,no wash left,,its had a hard life.. I'd love to see a mint,,or even a fairly good example of it..

I have the same in good shape. I will show after the work

Here is my ring

VERY nice guys! hard to find with the wash still on it! Thanks guys....

I had this pattern with yellow ename once.

interesting auction:

http://www.ebay.at/itm/7-Ringe-Silber-Kupfer-/112215245038?hash=item1a208cc0ee:g:jbMAAOSw-0xYNxkG

Odal, if you advertise my items on ebay. Show the other items. Or is it love to me? I prefer girls.

I cannot get the link to open up.

Wolf,,,I remember that ring!! a rare thing! I have a photo but can't get to it,,you still have a shot?

I believe the auction was for a 'lot' of rings on German eBay [?] In the sale is the reproduction air gunners. Being sold as a lot [with other rings],,not sure if listed as authentic or not. it is what it is,,there are others that appear to be campaign rings that could be fine,,can't really see them good though..