http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=766233

Ric

hi ric
good morning to you i just looked at this ss honor ring and don boyles certification . in my opinion i would say both the ss honor ring and don boyles certification is a fake don boyle never signes his certifications in red ink. all so in my opinion this ring never was owned by the late john peppera he would have not had this piece of junk in his prestigious collection and thats my honest opinion thanks any way but no cigar today best andy militarynut

Hello Andy,

that's my thought !

I strongly believe someone made a cast copy of the original Pepera's ring (unfortunately John is no longer able to confirm it) and then engraved it by hands but obviously not having a flat shape.

By such reason, engraving is not smooth and clean as expected by Gahr's quality.

Enclosed more pics of this ring, right now auctioned for 7800 $ (current price) !

Ric

This pic definitively kill the ring IMO.

Ric

More

More

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last one

here is an old thread in waf with 2 pics of this ring - looks very very close to me

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=371353&page=2

and ..... whats that?

Hello G.,

you made this discussion more interesting !

It seems we're looking at the exact same ring originally posted by John, so......?

At this point it's interesting to trace ring story, by the auction house description :

"It was sold by Wolfe and Hardin at some point in the early 1990s, and authenticated by Don Boyle 20 years ago. Ring comes with the original Don Boyle certificate, along with an email about the ring from John Pepera to the current owner, dated 2003, in which he describes the ring....."



Ric

is this ring not the same you think as late John P posted in that WA thread?

If the ring for sale right now by CG auctions is the one formerly belonged to John P, then a lot of people were fooled by it

That's still my thought


Ric

hi ric
i see thats an old post is from 2009 where this same ring and don boyles certification was discussed on wehrmach awards nothing has changed now its 2014 same old crap. who ever owns this ring is penny wise and pound foolish by not sending it to don boyle along with dons certification in the first place . whats another 250.00 in our hobby especially after paying thousands of dollars for a ring and getting junk i sell ss honor rings for years never had one sent back yet why because they all are inspected carefully certified by don boyle ss honor ring man thats his expertise. all my customers sleep tight at night in this market we all have to be carefull who we buy from i guarantee every thing i sell if your not happy then i am not happy full money back no questions asked. been that way over fifty years now guess im doing things right best andy militarynut

i wonder what Don Boyle has to say about that certificate that comes with it..

hi thunderpit
once the ring above is sent to don boyle with this boyle signed cert then the owner of this ring can give us all an answer do you know the owner best andy militarynut

Hello Andy
Hope all is well. The statement is not necessarily true about Don not signing red ink. When I had him certify my ring, his first certification was hand written and signed in red ink. I asked if he had a copy suitible for display/framing and he redid it typed and also signed in red ink.
He may not sign in red ink now, but he certainly did in 1993.
Ron


[quote=Militarynut]hi ric
good morning to you i just looked at this ss honor ring and don boyles certification . in my opinion i would say both the ss honor ring and don boyles certification is a fake don boyle never signes his certifications in red ink. ]

I don't know who, what, where or when.. But the photos on the 1st page of this topic looks like a SuperFake to me [?]

Maybe Don can jump in,,,he's always welcome here!

casting copy 100%

Andy,

that's the key to write end word of this dirty story !

Ric

Yeh , I know what is it rung : on gotlebs book 86 page Peichl repro )))
Look the same

hi members
thanks to tanker for reminding this old mind that don boyle did sign his certifications in red ink in the 1990s im sorry i appoligize . but in the past i have seen don boyles certifications altered and rings switched i ran on this dishonest person at the sos show with a ss ring and dons certification the cert had two mistakes on it i pointed out the mistakes to this dealer and his answer was don boyle made the mistakes i said i dont think so. the ring looked like a john neggy engraved it just terrible i said lets use my cell to call don he said go away from my table this is a good reason that don boyle has to see and make sure that you are getting what you pay for if he says your ring is bad then its bad he has no dogs in this fight. after paying so much for your ring wouldnt you want to make sure its a period ring with his certification good luck to the buyer of this ss honor ring on this auction lets hope the ring wasnt switched at some time best andy militarynut

Hello all, as a new member, and no expert at all, I would not purchase this ring. You all make very good points about the physical makeup of the ring (and it seems unnaturally scratched in the inside, since the name and date are in order. Shouldn't it be smoother there?). And to be quite honest, the description of the ring on the auction site seems to be trying too hard. Other than mr Boyle, the only witness to corroborate the authenticity would have to be mr. Pepera. Likewise, all caps for "exceptionally rare date", and the terms "safe investment" and "two decade track record" all at once set off my spidey senses. Here's what I am pretty good at- as a high school teacher who has read thousands of research papers over the last 20 years, I usually can pick out a series of phrases that say more than the author intended, if you guys catch my drift. Contrarily, the auctioneers claim that an artifacts authenticity "speaks for itself" is equally flawed. (If you all recall the artifact in question earlier this year). Like I tell my students when I confront their dishonesty, like in hamlet, you've revealed more than you intended, likewise- your paper isn't the problem. It's the integrity of its author.

- good comments all around here..

There is no doubt that John P. owned a Adler ring, here are 'his' photos from WAF in 2009.

- the ring shown at the start of this topic looks like a copy of this [what we're calling a fake] J.P ring! OR, are they one in the same?

We're all right though whether one ring or 2 its a copy/fake

John didn't always get certs on his rings. Did he get fooled back then?
Did Don paper a Adler ring for John back then? Would be great if Don kept records of what he certified.

Is the ring and cert up for auction currently? or did it sell already?

Gaspare
As far as I can see, it is still up for auction. What I would like to see is the complete picture of COA from Don.
All we see on the auction site, is a snippet of the COA. Ron

Sorry for my unprofesional input but compairing pictures of J.P ring and offered for sale I have no doubt this is the same ring.

meaning you dont deny its a fake? or just dont mention its a real one?
For the starting collector, like myself, this seems a very very dangerous road to move on.

Sorry for my blatant conclusion here but i would love to know once and for all, is it fake or not.

I do not know if this is a fake or legit ring. I have no experience on this matter. All I know both pictures (2009 and 2014) shows the same ring.

aaaaah, other Gottlieb...:)

Gaspare, due to the incorrect date in the ring I did not only safe the pics from 2009 in the WAF but also took a screenshot - with the writer - John Pepera.
In the screenshot I did mark the most prominent casting fault which could be seen already at this time in this photograph.

In a MAX thread Dave has announced that Don Boyle is willing to write here in the forum again. Is he in knowledge of this thread here?


Regards,

Surprisingly someone is offering 8000 $ for a fake ring and Gottlieb's auction house don't stop bidding on it.

Ric

As far as Craigs auction its fine,,you guys got to remember,,,He lives in an alternative universe. In his world the HR was 'investment cast'

Ok,,we know the ring in auction appears to be the exact ring John P. showed a couple years ago on WAF.
That in fact according to the criteria set in Dons book the ring appears to be a fake.

If we could get Don here that would be great. Maybe Andy can help with that..
Also, can anyone get a shot of the CoA?, even a portion of it.

So again,,Did John get burned with a SuperFake? Did Don 'paper' it? Or is the CoA a fake also [I've seen a couple fake Dons CoAs]..

Without more disclosure and new information the HR will hopefully not sell, but we won't know the particulars.

Well at least we all have the knowledge and can tell its a fake. Poor outside, poor inside....

guys, this is better drama than what's on cable tonight 😄 (unless Mike and Frank the pickers find the wewelsburg horde)☺️

hi gaspare
thanks for your help here on this so called ss honor ring on an auction site stevie wonder was blind and even he could see that this ring is either been switched or fake . as you mentioned you have seen a few of don boyles certifications that were altered and rings that don certified with his certification and then were exchanged with a fake ring by these greedy dealers eventuly the fake ring reaches don boyle for his certification then the crap hits the fan and the screams by the buyer i have been ripped off then the dealer says don boyle is wrong hell he only wrote the book why is he wrong . as far as him getting on forums guess you know why he told every body years ago no thanks who ever gets this ring i would advise him to sent it to don boule express mail for certification real or not real he gets the same fee . i can say this i would never buy anything from any auction unless the auctioneer guarentees me the ring and certification is real money back no questions asked plus 250.00 to re certifi it or dont buy it . sorry to many clowns out there buy from honest dealers you will feel better off paying the price and you will be happy you only get what you pay for best andy militarynut

Not intending to go sideways here but- any other newbies out there, best purchase I made all summer was from Andy- the black book of the ss totenkopf ring by mr. Don Boyle. It was one of a limited reprint of 250, and is a must read and must own if possible and lucky enough there may not be many left! Andy shipped the book promptly and as promised, complete with an optional (free) signature or even dedication by mr. Boyle himself. And having met these 2 gentlemen in person at the max, I can say with all certainty they are some of the most genuine people I've ever met. right now I'm more concerned about learning from this forum, and these esteemed gentlemen, than any real collecting at the moment... But speaking of books being published....any news Gaspare? (You will find me among the first in line for this one, guys!)

These are the good guys in the hobby. You will never go wrong when you deal with them. It is unfortunate that we have to put up with the crooks that always try to prey on the new collectors. Fortunately, Gaspare, Andy, Don and others will always provide and share their knowledge so you won't be taken advantage of. Ron

I must add my agreement that if an Honor Ring does not have a Don Boyle COA, it will be exceedingly difficult to ever resell. I have two Honor Rings and both were purchased on the main condition of being sent to Don and his certification that they were authentic. I think he was keeping a record of all he has certified, but not being him, I am not certain of it.

Mark

Makes you wonder what will happen with life after Boyle - No doubt hes still got some good years left and obviously anyone can go at anytime, but it seems to me his unquestioned and well deserved authority will a double edged sword upon his demise.
Doesn't Craig himself offer authentication services ? Would be nice if Don set up an apprentice, wonder if he has a son ? His knowledge is priceless and I see turmoil on the horizon for the TK ring market in the future.
In a way that may have some benefits, people might be leery of buying which would force a drop in prices, then the guys with knowledge [of which I ain't one] might be able to scoop up some good deals.

Im a brand new collector as well. Bought Dons book, craigs book, and willing to spend my hard earned money on a genuine ring. And when you see a ring which is in a good shape, its very tempting to buy. Too bad that the last few times, the rings turn out to be fakes. LIke this one currently on CGauctions.

Afaik only Andy has a genuine HR ring for sale currently.

I talked with Don at MAX about posting again and he seemed willing to come back. After I got home I searched our member list and Don was not there anymore. I think he dropped off at a software change quite a while back.

I emailed him to just start fresh and sign on again. No answer or sign on as of today.

Dave

I dealt with Don recently and I don't think he wants to get involved with the internet in any way. Just my opinion after talking with him. He and I have had a few transactions that go right under the public radar over the years, and we both like it that way. The real good stuff never hits the websites. Pure word of mouth and relationships.

Mark

hi members
you are right mark don does not want to get involved with any forums at all. those are his words to me to tell every body here he is not intrested but any one can call him with any questions any time concerning any ss honor rings that they would need help with and he will advise you as what his opinions are at this time hope every body understands and complys with his wishes he can be reached at 570 815-6920 thanks very much andy militarynut

I don't blame Don at all for not wanting to post on this forum or any other forum.
He will gladly answer or reply to any email.
Ron

hi ron
yes don boyle is at any ones becon call at a moments notice just private phone calls only not forums . when they want to talk his language ss honor rings/photos/documents real the abuse he received from a few when he was on gdc forum years ago was just terrible he never got over that . i was also abuse by some jerks at that time but im different then don i wait my turn then when the prey is in my sights then i attack i worked hard for my reputation 50 years in this wonderfull hobby and no wimps/bullys wise guys or jerks are going to take anything from me but again thats me and my humble ways. i all ways say what i think and if some one feels the heat best get out of the kitchen god bless all andy militarynut

Some guys do not take to confrontations well on these forums. Don is one of them.
Besides he's been busy with personal life etc. He will as others mentioned will always take a look at a HR. He occasionally gets in the 3rd reich rarity and moves it along with discretion. Don should be around for a while so don't worry about him 'going' anytime too soon!

So the most that will happen here is,,we know the ring is a fake. That 'maybe John got burned with it and seems like Craig now has it. Only person going to buy that ring is someone that believes as Craig does about the HR,,and there isn't too many of them..

Why would CG think this is a good ring? Would like to hear his side of the story!

in his description he never mentions its a genuine ring.. just that its tracable 20 years back.

Mikee, as I mentioned CG has his own beliefs,,and very few is anyone I know agree with him..

ThunderP , then as a fake its worth about $200. tops.........