http://www.cgmauctions.com/detail.asp?id...-Xavier-Schwarz

%)
4000 $ for copy, be carefully

Can someone explain to me what the difference is of a low opening bid and no-reserve is?

Hey Zorro,

Low opening bid is simply that the item in question will open (start bidding at) at below market value.

No Reserve, just means that the item will sell for the hammer price. (highest bid)

So if your consigning something with an auctioneer, and don't want to get bent over, you put the reserve at the lease amount you will accept for the item. That way either it won't sell, or you'll get the least amount or more for the item.

If you have a $5000.00 dagger and put a $3500.00 reserve on it, the bidding might start out at $500.00 but until it meets the $3500.00 reserve or goes higher it won't sell. Without that reserve, the owner of the item is at risk because if there is only one person at the auction that wants that item he may get it for $50.00, or $100.00 bucks.

A reserve just keeps the item from selling too inexpensively protecting the owner of the item, and the reserve is usually set by the owner of the item.

One more thing. If your the cosigner you also have to factor in the auctioneer's percentage. (payment)

Hope this helps

Rich

[quote=Pitbull63]Hey Zorro,

Low opening bid is simply that the item in question will open (start bidding at) at below market value.

No Reserve, just means that the item will sell for the hammer price. (highest bid)

So if your consigning something with an auctioneer, and don't want to get bent over, you put the reserve at the lease amount you will accept for the item. That way either it won't sell, or you'll get the least amount or more for the item.

If you have a $5000.00 dagger and put a $3500.00 reserve on it, the bidding might start out at $500.00 but until it meets the $3500.00 reserve or goes higher it won't sell. Without that reserve, the owner of the item is at risk because if there is only one person at the auction that wants that item he may get it for $50.00, or $100.00 bucks.

A reserve just keeps the item from selling too inexpensively protecting the owner of the item, and the reserve is usually set by the owner of the item.

One more thing. If your the cosigner you also have to factor in the auctioneer's percentage. (payment)

Hope this helps

Rich

[/quote Rich I can tell you are trying to be helpful and I thank you for that.But there is really no differents in the two they both do the same thing.If an ad says no reserve then if a $5000.00 gets a $50.00 bid that is what it should sell for $50.00.If it has an owner applied bid that is a reserve because it takes a certain amount of money to get it.No big deal but it might be one of those things I will never understand.P.S I am not going to let my question overtake the original post,so I am going to drop it.

Evgeniy,,, That ring belonged to an old member here many years ago. It is a old rare ring. Only 4 that are known!.
The ring when it was brought back to the USA after the war had the skull taken off and a diamond was put where the skull was!
After Craig bought it a few years ago he 'restored' the ring by making a skull for it and having it soldered on.. Personally,, I loved how it looked with the diamond on it! I used to have a photo of it like that but its long gone,,,anyone have the photo??

So its a very rare authentic ring with a new skull put on to restore the ring to 'how made' condition...

i see you
but text look too - very strange
or i mistake ???

I'd really love to see it before restoration.

Ric

I do know that I lean wide out of the window. First I want to state that I like the outer appearance of this certain ring and the story when it is, which I do assume, proofable.
But what I never liked on this "Schwarz" ring are the obvious tracings of casting (fine vertical lines eg. within the "z" and the "VII" - there are some more). This leads us to several other segments concerning TKrings and it�s manufacturing process in general and Craig�s book (which I generally do appreciate very much! It gives a lot of insights to the collector community). As to my best knowledge and common and general knowledge of jewelers and serious collectors here in europa the rings were 1.)stamped NOT cast) and 2.)the engraving ALWAYS was done at the closed, finished ring and NOT on the open band.
All details of known period TKRs show us that they were stamped, special sharp lines, the exact prominent flaws and some certain other features never could occur due to a lost wax mold. Yuo can do these observations especially and best on really unworn rings - how many are around, which average collector has ever owned/handled/seen one himself?. I have personally spoken with old and over decades experienced engravers and none of them ever had heard nor thought of engraving an open band ring.... When you have knowledge in engraving and especially in ring engraving you can also see from the engraving lines and "shades" that the engraving was done at the closed ring.
This opens the question what those by me mentioned fine lines are (as said imo traces of casting) and why they are there. I never could observe them on any unquestionable period ring.
I am open to any discussion, just mentioned my observations and experiences.
Regards,

Years ago a member did calculations about engraving on a flat band. It showed beyond a shadow of a doubt that very little distortion happened after ring rolled and soldered. IF anyone would like the calculation I'll show here with sample if anyone would like.. I am not saying that is how it was done only that it could have been done like that..

The original owner was 'Marc' a member many years ago here. The ring was given to him by his Mother. It was either his Fathers or an Uncles brought back directly from the war. He brought it to a jewler and had a triangle put on front where skull is and a diamond in the triangle.. It looks great. That year he brought it to the MAX. We [some members] got to see and handle the ring.. Don handled it and authenticated it.. It was a real beauty and should have been left 'as is' in my opinion..

That's all I can tell you. Maybe Marc will see this and have the original photo,,[mine lost 2 hard drives ago!] , or another member has photo.. I don't remember seeing it in Craigs book as I only flipped thru it so don't know what happened or what..

It's enough to make a grown man cry.

A "parts" ring?

a "parts" ring should bring a "parts" price,wouldn't one agree?

My father told me that his older brother brought home an SS honor ring and took it to a jeweler to have diamonds put into the eyes. The jeweler "lost" the ring and it was never found. I have a luft belt and buckle that my uncle brought back and gave to my grandfather. My grandfather filed off the swastika, drilled two holes and mounted a ruby. The ruby has long been gone. I guess it was common for vets and or family members to deface these war trophies and mount jewels on them.

lol ...with non period parts.

What I find most interesting is how an inanimate object has increased value because it was once owned by a certain someone.Or should I say some parts were owned by a certain someone?

Well I asked a few 'old timers' here.. And guess what? surprise , surprise, [BIG Thanks J.P.!]:

New and Old,,which do you guys like better?

Unusual looking H in H Himmler.If one is going to change the ring .I like the added skull look.Might as well change it to look original.

Since I belong to "leave them as found" party I prefer the old way, but I understand who vote differently.

Thanks for pic, G.

Ric

Hey G,

Thanks for the picture. Is it the picture or does the ring with diamond look more worn than the ring with repro skull?

I think it would have been a better idea to use an original skull.Taken from a ring with the inscriptions removed from the inside .I'm sure Craig would have had no problem finding one worthy of the cause.

I prefer it before it was bastardised. Without fake skull for me. Hell why not buy it and have the fake skull removed [maybe Craig still has the stone etc and it can go back to how it was ....

Although I would prefer this ring with a skull. The diamond had/still has more of a connection and history than this brand new reproduction skull and since the diamond was/is still historically linked to this ring, the diamond should've been offered with this ring at auction Imo and have no problems with the originality of this ring.

Wontan, Good eye. I was wondering about those lines or cracks myself. I find it very interesting, I wish we had it in hand and could take a loop to it. But what I find really weird and very interesting is in most of the areas where there is a crack you find the engraving stops, nothing, gone and it looks like it was never engraved beyond those cracks or lines. Do you think these lines, cracks, whatever they are were present before the engraving? I don't know, so I didn't call them casting marks because sometimes cracks can be caused by extreme pressure. Thanks.

I don't really know about rings, but if Gaspere sais this is original with a replacement skull, I accept that. I also would vote that the original modification with the diamond should have been left alone.

However, I have a hard time puttin this all in perspective.

So, say this was an Army dagger with a de nazified cross guard after the war. A seller replaces the cross guard with a post war reproduction. Is the Army dagger with the post war crossguard worth the same as the original. Or, what percentage of the value of the item is lost. 50%, 60%.

So, if the starting bid on this is $4,000. What would be the value of a similar ring, with similar documentation and rank be valued at. Would it be worth $10,000??

Clearly I am having a hard time with the value on this.

Perhaps someone can enlighten me.

there are but a few 1933 roman numeral rings out there,,,they are VERY rare. And of course this is a infamous personality ring,,,$4000. , or really $3000. is a livible number.. Looks like more thna the skull,,there looks like there was some actual lenth from each side taken off,,which would mean the ring wa rolled a slight bit tihter then the skull put on...
I'm pretty sure the original owner had the diamond taken off before Craig got it [?].. Still hopeing he sees this as he occasionally looks in..

I would like to say I'm not a ring guy, nothing against them, just haven't bought any yet. I would also like to say that I agree with Mikee. I prefer these rings looking original with the skull, that's the way they came, that's the way they look the best however what Mikee said about the diamond having more of a historical connection than the new reproduction scull is on mark!!! I would have left it alone. Also, Jim W's analogy with the dagger with aftermarket, post war parts is right on the money too. I personally think the ring would have been worth more before it was messed with a second time.

Rich

The only pic I have of this ring with the diamond still attached...

dtl70,

Thanks for the picture. Do you recall if thats a line running through the name or a shadow? Thank you.

Not sure but I have always thought it was a reflection of the top edge of the portion of the ring in the foreground of the photo.
Derek

Was it actually a diamond or glass ?

The story I have always heard was diamond. No way to know for sure.
Derek

I'm sorry I missed this discussion until now. First, the opening post is a laugh. The ring, as Gaspare confirms, is both original and ultra-rare. Only 4 known to exist, or therabouts. And this is the higest-ranking ring available or even possible. I have no idea what it will go for, but I feel it'll easily exceed $10K. We'll see.

When I bought the ring, the diamond had already been removed. I got it with the hole, and had to do something. And since I was unwilling to chop up a perfectly good ring to "get" a skull, we opted to have a reproduction skull hand carved (not cast) and soldered on. Furthermore, the skull on a 1933 ring is different than the skull on a 1934 ring. So even if I wanted to use an original skull, it wouldn't have been right. This is a case of "what a shame" times a million. If there was ever a ring NOT to do this to (removal of the skull and addition of a stone) this was it! Oh well.

The auction starts tomorrow, and it'll be very interesting to see how this one lot plays out.

Craig,

Thanks for the explanation...I believe the ring is original, but would like to hear your expert opinion on these lines,cracks,whatever they are? What are they in your expert opinion?

No opinion necessary. In person, it's easy: they are scratches.

Great, thanks for the clarification rather than your opinion, some of us can't see it in person. From the pictures they look more like gouges than scratches. You are selling it and you do have first hand knowledge of this ring, reason for the clarification. Were the scratches there before or after the engraving? The engraving "looks like" from the pictures to stop at most of the scratches? This might not be the case,I don't know. Thanks for finally answering a question of mine.

Interesting discussion on value. My view is that the only choices are or would have been 1) leave the ring as found, with or without the stone depending on whether that was an option for Craig. 2) Do as he did and put a repo skull on it. 3) Put an original 30's style skull back on it from wherever. My view is an original skull back on it. Remember that the skull is generic to the ring and all VALUE comes from the date and condition and NAME, NAME, NAME!!!!! If it had an original skull back on it, this is no different than correct cross guards for a dagger. The uniqueness of the ring is then completely preserved. That is my vote. I believe the Wolf ring was the only other actual 1933 ring known. There are 3 others known by documents though, is this not correct? David

Sorry, Craig replied while I was posting. I have to bow to his opinion that even a 1930's skull would not necessarily be correct. Not too many to choose from to evaluate though. David

David: There are three additional rings that I know, for a total of 4. One of those rings was lost (Wolfe).

Craig,

Would you clarify my question as well please? Thank you

Regarding the scratches, they were there when I bought it, and obviously happened at some point after the ring was engraved by Gahr, which was not known for delivering rings with scratches! The scratches could have been from 1934, they could have been from 1994 - I have no clue.

Craig, There has been less than a handful of the 33 rings ever found, and all in very worn condition. You've stated that even the normally seen 30's style skull was different than what was found on the introductory 33 rings. How can you be so sure of fact when we really don't have a good enough example to even compare it to ?

Exactly my point! Because I don't have the ring in hand I don't have a clue either, it was more a curiosity, an interest, a clarification concerning a small portion of this nicely done engraving that "seems" from the picture unfinished and stop at the large verticle scratch. An engraver mistake, maybe, maybe not. The obvious is sometimes not so obvious. Thanks anyway!

No problem Mikee. JR: My basis for the statement were the photos of the Wolfe ring (photos available in my book, submitted to me by Don Boyle). And having thought about it, you actually have a very good point. While I noticed differences at the time, a sample of one worn ring is not sufficient evidence upon which to base a reliable theory. Until we discover a 1933 ring in better condition, I should not make such a blanket statement that "1933 rings had a different skull." I should revise what I say to reflect this dynamic. At the TIME I restored the Schwarz ring, I used the photos of the Wolfe ring upon which to base my skull design. Although the design of the 1933 ring itself is ever-so-slightly different, the skulls could be identical.

Also, of interest ... bidding is almost at $9K on the Schwarz ring. It'll be VERY interesting to see where this ends up. I have my own opinions, but am really anxious to see whether or not I valued it at more than it's actually worth, or if I'm way under. This is what is exciting about the auction ... it really is revealing a lot of interesting information about what things are REALLY worth in the market.

I guess the ring market is alive and well and isn't as depressed as some say it is!

- standard rings sit. Ask all who are holding on to a few and trying to sell them ..
Craigs,,has 2 BIG things going for it even though its 'restored',
1 is the date,,2 is the recipient...Rings like that will always sell...
IF times weren't so bad he would have gotten a whole lot more for it too!

Hey G,

I understand and agree with your two points...All I'm saying is that if ring holders are ready to sell now or in the future "I" think it's better to sell at auction rather than a direct buy from a dealer, but to each his own I also understand. From this auction and Ryan's story is what I've learned from and will not forget. Because of this, there are certain dealers that "I" now do not trust nor will I ever do business with.

As Gaspare said, the ring market is depressed from its highs. The two things he mentions certainly were what separated it out from the "pack" of rings. He's right ... only extraordinary rings sell for top dollar anymore.

Geez! reread what I stated please,I said I agree. But since you have sold over what, fifty? Probably the biggest seller of these type rings, again I don't know. Show a graph demonstrating this price decline. I'm sure you have the records,right. It's not my bread and butter, but since it is yours it would be interesting to see how much of a decline these rings have fallen. Thank you.

Book Release -----
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Kerplunk,splash

ajax,,shit happens

Mikee,,what really started happening was run of the mill late types in very good condition started to go for double digit numbers.
40s Rings ,where you can't find the guy, common date, but in very good + condition just aren't worth $10k + to me,,and most others too.
So some sold,,but when they tried to resell they couldn't make their money back! That was just the start of the problems.
Their was a time when it was thought there could be just 20 or so HRs out there!! With the times and vets passing away more and more HRs started to appear,,they aren't really so rare any more unless you have a special one.

hello to all,
it has been quite a while that i have been on here. that being said i am the previous owner of the schwarz 33 ring. i will try to cover all the questions in the thread the best i can. first,the ring was aquired near regansburg sometime after the war by an army docter named davies. he was the doctor that my mother had worked for as his RN. he had noticed the skul;l was loose and asked a jeweler friend to repair the skull. the jeweler decided to be a good friend and replace it with a bezel and diamond setting. the diamond is a vvs quailty an g-h color abot 33 points. so a very nice stone which is now in a ring my wife wears. when the jeweler gave the ring back to doc davies. he was furious and gave it to my mother and said here its ruined "i dont want it". it sat in a drawer for 35 years or so misplaced. she came across it one day and gave it to me. i knew it was an honor ring but wasnt sure about the inscription because it was different than all others on the web. i contaacted don boyle about it and he was extremely interested in seeing it. so when the max came to town i met don and we went out to eat,he came to my home and he got a hands on look at it as well as a few other members. i assure you the ring i sold craig was 100% good. the internal scratches looked like it was worn on a chain around the neck or something? as for the whole sale to craig that is a sore subject! i sold the ring to craig for around 2500.00 due to financial issues. i was led to beleive it wasnt worth much more than that. didnt matter i needed the money. but the real issue is this. part of the sale agreement was my story of the ring and recgnition as the previous owner was to be in the book and a signed copy was to be mailed to me on completion of publishing. well,none of that ever happend! when i called craig about the book after it was finaly out he told me that he didnt order any extra copies and didnt have one for me! so with that all being said, i hope the new owner enjoys the ring as i did,and i do have the original photos before and after the diamond was removed. i could dig them out for the current owner to have a copy of. i will not release permission for use in any publications without writtn permission though. not trying to start a fight but the air and truth needs to be cleared.

signed
m.vaughn shock
best wishes

I believe a trend exist or is developing with Craig when it comes down to accurately evaluating and giving the potential seller a fair evaluation of value. The same or similar happened to Sellick Rogers (needing to sell the rings quickly).
I realize he is in busines, but deception when it comes down to buying is outright wrong. I believe a person should offer a fair amount and abide by the terms of an agreement.
Craig,some friendly advice, you may be making money now, but all this controversy will sooner or later catch up. Bad publicy travels fast in the hobby. Ron

"If" that was the agreement, then it was broken. Is this persons integrity in question?
Open ended question, you decide!

it is also a funny coincidence that when i asked him for copies of his wolfe ring pics so i could restore the ring myself he couldnt find them or just plain ignored me. but after he bought the ring he didnt waste time restoring it using the same pics! life is one big learning experience. and i sure learned alot after dealing with him.

Which person's integrity are you refering to. If you are refering to Craig, then the answer is yes. Ron

What did the restored ring eventually sell for at auction ??
Regards
Fraser

over 12000.00 us

an old guy was climbing up a mountain and it was very cold outside, he came across a snake,the snake asked him...please take me down from this mountain I'm so cold I'm freezing to death...the old guy said...if I do you when you get warm you will bite me,the snake replied...I promise I won't...so down the mountain they went.
Once the snake got warm,he bit the old guy...hey you said you would not bite me...the snake looked at the guy and said "you knew I was a snake"

dealing with this guy...you know you are going to get bit

Sepp

I recently took a peek at some dealer sites that sell SS rings, to see if in fact SS Honor ring prices have taken a drastic nose dive like reported. I would be elated if it were true. If in fact prices have hit rock bottom, then why isn't it reflected as such on these sites? I can't fault anyone for selling at their asking price, but please don't complain that you can't sell when your prices stay the same and then blame it on the market. It's all a ploy to purchase low in my opinion. All I can say is don't read their lips read their web sites and you'll know the truth.

Purchased for $2,500.00, sold for over $12,000.00! Case closed.

Its very reassuring to see that people can post the truth here without posts being deleted and posters warned over daring to post facts that affect the collecting community
Fraser

Wow another story involving Craig and SS rings....I will NEVER deal with him again...I have defended him to others but that is now over. The last four things I purchased from his site were garbage..(prior purchases were all good).a museum quality Luft officers visor that turned out to be a restored DLV, a summer Luft mesh flying helmet, described as mint which was abysmal when it arrived..Craig's explanation..? "sent out wrong one" I photo matched it it was the same helmet!!!...damage was not described or shown...Luft Flieger blouse...dismal condition poorly restored insignia....finally two years ago pre paid and went to SOS to pick up near mint Eichkorn Heer dagger....my jaw dropped when I picked it up...bent scabbard, far from mint piece in many ways..explanation "must have been damaged in transit" it was scary...immediate money back...these are the facts..in all cases money refunded but none of the "deficiencies" were described or made known. I am not a fussy collector. The issues were blatant and obvious yet were never descibed or photographed example: mesh helmet had throat mic cut off, two tears in mesh, poorly sewn, numerous snags and missing one interior plastic ear cover yet photographed and described as mint...fliegerbluse had replaced shoulder boards, handsewn replaced adler, replaced collar tabsn all replaced, non matching buttons and non described damaged...is there a pattern here...?

I think its safe to say that CG is the used car salesman of TR. He has very little interest outside of the mighty $$.
I wouldn't put him at the low level of a Snyder, who is more like the garbageman of TR ,,, But he has proven again and again that he has very little in the way of scruples.

I believe it is safe to say he is on the fast track to Charlie Synder's reputation.I personally don't see how he can continue this and not be called out more.
Oh, I forgot, he is the expert for all items on Pawn Stars!!

well i think we all know what that involvement is about. pawn stars refuse to buy and sell ww2 nazi items. "rick said in an episode that he didnt want the stuff in his store it creeps him out. so its awful funny craig is now involved. my guess is to scoop up all the stuff that walks in that they wont deal with. i can only assume how much of a fair price he is giving people in vegas where people are already comprimised for obvious reasons if they are hitting up the pawn shop. something like this possibly???? "no mam that presentation case knights cross with issue document is only worth around 500.00... they are pretty common" but i want to help you out so i will give you 600.00....

Rick from Pawn Stars would sell his grannies knickers to turn a buck - He only shies away from TR on TV because he knows he would get complaints from the usual suspects if he dealt in any Nazi merchandise, and could possibly compromise his show ,, Which, I presume, he makes far more from than actual pawn sales.
I would bet 50 to 1 that he'd have no problem turning a TR deal off camera - "That stuff creeps me out", my arse !

He has already surpassed Snyder, these instances regarding the honour ring sales, purchases are
Only the tip of a massive iceberg
Fraser

I rarely post on this forum, but anyone who has dealings with this man is going to be ripped off one way or another.

Unfortunately, this is only the tip of the iceberg. I tend to be suspecious of ALL TR dealers as I've found the majoity of them at least have some sort of "larceny in their heart"...I'm not too active in the hobby anymore and this is just one reason why I'm not!

Actually not ALL 3rd Reich dealers are dishonest or bad. Unfortunately, it only takes one or two bad apples in the hobby to taint it. I really never understood these folks who lie, cheat or alter pieces as in the end it will only hurt the hobby and do themselves harm.
Ron