Hi,
This is not my area of speciality so any help would be much appreciated ! I've been offered an honor ring named to an SD officer who I understand was an early member of the SS and was also awarded the blood order. I realise that pictures are needed to determine true value etc but assuming there is light wear what sort of price should I be looking at ?
I will post pictures as and when I get it
Thanks
Jonathan
Yes we first need to see photos before any value can be offered. Looking forward to seeing the pics!
Based upon that brief description and no pictures, I would estimate any where from $6,000.00 to $12,000.00, highly dependent upon who it was. The blood order makes it much more desirable if it can be authenticated.
Just my personal opinion....
Mark
Cheers Mark, I kind of figured it was somewhere in that ballpark. Hopefully I'll have it in a week or so, then I'll put up a few photos
Jonathan
good luck!
I'll have the ring tomorrow, it's more worn than I realised, apparently the back is smooth, some definition to the sides and the eyes/nose still visible on the skull. It's a large sized ring which i understand is attractive ?
The wearer was a chap by the name of Siebel, awarded the ring 20/4/37 - inscription still nice and clear. He was in the SD, SS no 3327, not sure a blood order recipient but certainly an early recipient and presumably an early streetfighter.
I'm taking this in trade and will move it on, I have about usd 6,500 in it so will appreciate your comments when the pics go up tomorrow
Pic 1
pic 2
pic3
pic4
pic5
pic6
pic7
pic8
pic9
pic10
pic11
pic12
final pic
Oh man! That's a beauty with some real history.
Mark
Congratulations Jonathan! {very $ valuable} nice ring. Paul
Cheers chaps, always nice to handle something different. It is well worn but I actually like it that way, at least it shows it's been there and seen a bit of use. I've asked someone to dig out what he can on Herr Siebel - I know he was a Golden party badge holder - but this ring will be going on the estand shortly as it's outside my sphere of collecting and I'll be well and truly broke if I keep everything !
I,ll take a punt here and say the name is in fact "Giebel"
Just my 2cents.
Seiler (Yank in UK)
Fairly sure it's Siebel...but see what you're getting at !! Let me check when I'm home !!
I'd agree with Seiler that the name is "Giebel".
Here's some quicksearch information (Axis History Forum) that might be applicable:
Giebel or Geibel, Paul Otto (1898-1966) [SS-Brigadefuehrer und Generalmajor der Polizei] – served as naval officer in WWI; SS and Police commander "Warsaw" (SSPF "Warschau") 31 Mar 1944-1 Feb 1945; commander, Order Police (Befehlshaber der Ordnungspolizei) (BdO) Czechoslovakia Feb-May 1945 {captured at Prague; extradited to Poland; tried for war crimes by the Warsaw Voivodship Court in Poland, "served a long sentence" (Allgemeine-SS p. 57) or was sentenced to life imprisonment; released and died 12 Nov 1966 in Germany (Allgemeine-SS p. 57; ABR-SS) or committed suicide on the same date in a Polish prison (Bartoszewski 335n).}
Beautiful ring.
Jonathan,
Agreed, I believe the first initial is a "G". Beautiful ring!
A 1937!,,Congrats! Looks like a very nice ring you got yourself there!
Strange kind of,,A couple topics down and there's deathsring44 ring, or even JanCZs ring. Many photos, none really good but they raise more doubts than confirmation...
Now even with poorer photos then these and you would still be able to tell this ring is a good one,,,its a 'one looker' for sure...Thanks for showing us!! , G.
*
Hi
It is certainly a nice, original ring.
It is not Geibel's ring as he joined the SS in 1938 and the spelling is different in every DAL that I have looked at.
The capital letter is interesting as it looks like a 'G' but differs from a 1944 ring that I have.
It would be interesting if any members can post up a G or an S for comparison
Raymond
Here is a 'G' for you gents from the 1944 ring I mentioned
Raymond
Description: G
I have an "S" .definitely not the same form as
Jonathons.Look at his low case s.lb versus upper case of the surname.
Seiler
This looks like a nice ring although, what I have learned from this forum, mostly an in hand inspection is necessary to give an honest statement on rings (!). Nevertheless this one has the very best chances to be an original one
.
BUT (sorry for saying, but these are my honest thoughts): I will never understand why anybody does collect high value items and does not have the least manuals, records and so on the certain artifacts. I personally also do NOT "collect" rings. But I do have nearly all DAL reprints which are available. I have bought "The Key" which TRUELY IS a KEY for SEVERAL questions. I have bought several books on the TKR itself and the myth around it.
So I can tell you now that the ring holder is NOT registered as BO recipient and is NOT related to the SD what concerns the DALs he is appearing in.
Simply due to books you can narrow down the possibilities to one single person.
Not the last question about the name, it is Giebel, and NOT Siebel or Geibel like written here.
As mentioned already before by me in the forum - no offend to anyone (please understand the meaning; and it is NOT meant in ANY political way): If you collect german items you have to think in a german way.
Regards,
Wotan,
Thank you for that.
Seiler (Yank in UK)
I agree that this ring is indeed to a Giebel, and with Raymond's help I believe we have already located him - apologies but I have not had time to post on the forum since yesterday.
The previous owner of this ring did have the wrong guy but as he has agreed to negotiate our deal with the ring at a lower value I'm more than happy !
And Wotan, yes I also have the Key and several of the DAL reprints, thanks.
Jonathan
This is the likely recipient -
Giebel, Wilhelm
SS Nr: 170,185
Partei Nr: 1,267,496
Rank (1938) Untersturmführer (12.9.37)
9. Standarte
I'm still not convinced that this ring is to a 'Giebel' and not to a 'Siebel'. The only sensible way this can be resolved is to compare alongside other rings - which both Raymond and I have been doing. Can anyone show a ring with a 'G' recipient please ?
Thanks
JONATHAN, congratulations, you have done your homework long before! These most valuable references unfortunately are ignored by most collectors, NOT by YOU. In the Key you see that GIEBEL is in the 1937 list for the first time and when you have the 1938 DAL you can see he has already gotten the HR. In the Key you also can observe that he is not mentioned in any other available DAL. So simply by these facts the ring already has a solid fundament for further research.
Please, believe me, it is GIEBEL without the least doubt!
It would be nice to get his personal files what has happened to him.
Regards,
Hi
Wotan makes some valid points. I do find it odd that people do do the homework when they get hold of such valuable items and Jonathan has certainly been doing that.
I never take the research on any ring at face value and have researched a fair few previously researched rings, only for the named recipient to be completely wrong.
The lesson is to never take what you are given at face value
Raymond
Well..that one fizzled out!!
Nothing concluded but a variation of names
ending with Giebler??
Where did the ,ell! come from?
Seiler.(Yank in UK)
This hasn't fizzled out at all, just not updating every 5 minutes, the forum isn't the only thing in my life
Anyway the end conclusion is that the name is 'Giebel', we've checked enough examples to be fairly sure of this fact. Having run through the various DALs we've reached the conclusion that the recipient could only have been one Wilhelm Giebel - details as above. John is preparing the file for me now, there are 37 pages on him.
As per above, his details are -
Giebel, Wilhelm
SS Nr: 170,185
Partei Nr: 1,267,496
Rank (1938) Untersturmführer (12.9.37)
9. Standarte
John has preadvised me the following which I quote -
he was a Städtliche Vollziehungs Beamte in the town of Lippehne in the former district of Prussia. His position translates as some kind of city enforcement official, maybe a code inspector. From the back of his Führerkarte I can see that he was an NCO in the military home guard from 36-40 and entered the Waffen-SS in January 1945, but not as an officer.
end
Regards
Jonathan
Sorry but the initials I see engraved in the ring are G M not W for Wilhelm
Not sure which ring you're looking at but it isn't this one ! The ring does not show the first initial, and nor should it. It reads 'Slb Giebel 20.4.37 H Himmler'.
The only confusion earlier arose from the surname spelling, whether it was 'Siebel' as the previous vendor thought, or 'Giebel', and after research we are agreed it reads 'Giebel'. The deduction that this belonged to a Wilhelm Giebel was reached after searching the various DALs and establishing that Wilhelm Giebel had received an honor ring at this time
great job Jonathan!
Jonathan, I think your right on target. When everything is right close like that ,the name, award date etc.,you have to go with reasoning..
Congrats! ,Good work....
Thanks, the real credit goes to Raymond and John (Moore).
Jonathan
Hi Jonathan I was looking at your picture number 3 now you explain I can see its the angle that gave me my wrong interpretation
Very nice ring well done
"GROH"
Note the style of the 'G'
(attributed to Craig Gottlieb sales)
Thanks for posting this John
Waiting for Vern to renew my premium membership, as soon as he does the 'Giebel' ring is off to the classifieds, complete with John P Moore's research - usd 5,800
Cheers
Jonathan
Hi Johnathon hope the sale goes well, these rings are highly desirable.
It seems odd to me that such a low ranking officer would receive a ring. Are there many other examples of junior officers receiving them?
Yes many Unterstrumfuhrer's received rings. After all they were Officers!
On an earlier posting I mentioned that when you see a real one and early ones especially they JUMP OUT AT YOU. There is no question on this one, the wear is just like mine and shiny as it should be.This ring if it pulls out that he is the only one with that name and has treue fame of that blood order and a badge holder that ring should be 10.000 dollars PLUS. Look at what craig asks for some of the rings he sells.This should be a superman ring in my opinion..tom
For those wanting to see a nice 1st pattern HR here it is!!
first page,,,page #1.. There is his 20 4 37. Jonathan posts photos