First model Railroads, Luftwaffe funeral daggers the maker always Klass the grip matrial always trilon. The only maker to produce these elusive some what mystrious dagger is Klass also the only maker to use black trilon for there grips durn the era and paint them, wood was used by other makers and painted but it stuck better then on trilon so the paint chipped away or IMO was removed and made amazingly enough a new dagger that served a new purpose in the third reich. The First Model Railway Dagger, I have never thought it to be quite right being so similar to the Army daggers why would a separate entity like the Reichsbahn not commission a different design, well that is explainable they did. In my opinion the so called second model railroad is in all reality the first model railroad. As far aa Luft funeral daggers go again Klass 2nd model Lufts are found with painted grips and underneath amazingly enough black trilon, and again to make a buck the paint was remove and a jazzy new name given to the dagger. The only maker that made 1st model Railroads was Klass and only maker that made the so called funeral lufts also Klass the only company known to have used black trilon in there dagger grips also Klass, that is about all I need to know to make my decision on these daggers how about you. I know this may cause debate but debate is good, as a community of collectors way is such a thing so passively accepted. I for one and I don't think I am alone. Just because they are being sold as a different dagger on many sites these daggers IMHO are normal but damaged Heers daggers & 2nd model luftwaffe daggers. Maybe Manfred can repaint your grips then they will be restored to their original state
. I have no positive proof of my statement only educated assumptions I guess, you make your own decision. I really would love to learn others opinions on these.
This question is very often being debated and the vast majority of collectors, and dealers alike, have somewhat changed their mind about it in the last 2 years.
There ain't too many dealers out there beleiving that these were ever made for the Bahnschutspolizei. Here are the fact ; there is no period reference literature on the subject, no period pics of the dagger in wear, the whole so called "Railway 1st model" story started with
ONE dealer and last but not least, ample proof that many so called Railway daggers have period paints on their grips.
Now, for those still beleiving in the so called 1st Railway leader dagger, please, try to answer these 2 following questions :
1- If indeed this were Railway daggers, then why would there be evidence of white paints on top of many of these period black grips ?
2- here's the most difficult question to answer though. The Bahnshutzpolizei was the
smallest para-military force in the Third Reich organization with less than 4500 men. Why in the world, would they get their own distinctive dagger many years before the other more important para-military group, such as the Teno, RAD, Postschutz, Hitlerjungen Leader, RLB.
Sorry, but it does not make any sense to me that such an
obscure organization would get their dagger first.
Just my opinion.
Nonetheless, it is still a very desirable dagger that I would love to own and would pay the premium price for its black grip.
Why the premium price for a damage dagger with little if any paint remaining on the grip, IMO the daggers lost much of there intented past as a real looking Heers dagger, I would not pay a premium for a wood or plaster grip that had no paint left would you. The only time I could see paying a premium would be for a dagger like the one Craig has for sale, it is black underneath but much of the original paint remains present, therefore a premium price should be at tow for a rare varition grip with much of the original paint remaining, and history. The daggers like the one I see on Craigs site should be the only type that a premium is held why give a premium to something that is so postwar modified like the grips with no paint that are black trilon. I think the same should hold true for black trilon as wood or plaster. Premium for damage, no
Same should hold true for black handled Luftwaffe daggers.
Adam and Pat, naturally I also have thought over the black grips for several times for myself.
I do not think it beeing totally impossible that there was a variant of the army officers dagger for this branch. Simply an officers dagger for officers (but now officers from bahnschutz - and therefore a different colored grip for any distiction). It is -prooved- not uncommon for 3.R. period daggers that a small difference represented another branch (e.g.: Diplos/Govs; redcross/sozialwellfare - yes I do believe in the different daggers for these two different "brother"-branches due to what I have seen on period pics and what I have seen on (hangers)/of daggers which came directly from the former wearer or the hosehold of the late former wearer and finally LC/WC and navy/WPP).
The lack of any period pic does not wonder me. As it is mentioned it has been a very small branch. Up to some years ago there did not exist (in collector´s hands) a single photograph of waring a TN-leader dagger and these daggers were not thought beeing phantasy pieces
up to this time. And the differenc of color due to b&w period pics might be anothr problem of finding them easily.
Why for heavens sake these army grips ever have been produced in black color if they were needed only in white and pale yellow????
There are not only KLAAS ones (please write it the right way -KLAAS- and not "KLASS" how shall our younger collectors learn to recognize minute details) but other manufacturers from time to time. Where these grips on them postwar changed?? Did they use grips from KLAAS? I do not know. But I think it would be extremely interesting for our collectors comunity to sov the mistry of those black grips, if there ever did exist a Bahnschutz leader dagger in the form of an army officers dagger but with original period black grip.
Of course there is also the Luftwaffe black grip question and there are also a couple of Red Cross Officer black grips around. I agree with Wotan that it would be great to solve this question. I also have wondered about this. IMO though -the purple flecked knots that are supposed to be for the earlier dagger and the hangers with straps that look like SS knot straps are 100% fake. There also is the question of the two types of Railway hangers-those with square buckles and those with the oval ones. The difference between these has also never been explained--and this could be a point in favor of the earlier model dagger.
From a historical standpoint the German railroad had considerably more significance than one might think. It represented the only viable form of transportation in Germany. In the 1920s a struggle ensued between the Nationalists and the Internationalists (Communists) who were trying to control the dtransportation system in Germany. The RR was part of Nationalistic factions. In the actual battles and firefight with the Communists they used the trains as mobile fortifications. Hitler awarded the RR leadership with special recognition and status for the service. Thus, the status of the RR should not be underestimated. And since the army dagger was the first non-traditional military daggers to be introduced in 1933, I would not discount the possibility that a moldified version of this dagger would be introduced to RR.
In one of the earlier discussions involving the blackhandled army dagger (roughly 4 years ago) someone referenced a link to website that discussed the historical significance of the German RR in the 20s and 30s in detail. I have not been able to find this link. Perhaps someone out thee can remember it.
Manfred,
Very good observation !
Are you talking about this 37 pages article on the Bahnschutz ?
I am not total disputing the fact that they exist but the evidents lean alot heavier in my opinion that the 2nd model Bahnschutz would be much more probable for the introduction of a dagger for this organization thou's one may make the assumtion that it was in fact introduced along with many other daggers in 1938 why the existence of so many other varitions of the Klaas daggers, yes other makers pop up on occasions but not in the frequency that the Klaas versions. Almost every Black handled dagger was made by Klaas, and many are found with paint remaining under or around the wire or under the pommel area. I find this as treading dangerous waters in the collection realm and if these so called 1st model R.R. or Funeral Lufts did exist it would be very hard to prove through providents that it was always black since painted versions of these black grips did exist. So how do you know it is original and not post war modified? Anyone aquire any comletely black handled 2nd luftwaffe's or Heer's daggers directly from vets with NO trace of paint on the grips including under an eye loupe around the wire and such areas? I am still not convinced and maybe we all will never be but to collect something with less then proven history is that really collection for history or collecting for the sake of having more product?
And I think if this Org. the Bahnschutz was so important they would commission their own design from the beginning not copy off a already used design. I think as a community we need to reseach and find the proof one way or the other and not blindly collect just to have more things.
HA! Adam-Do you think that we have not been looking for this answer and many others more than twice as long as you have been alive? In fact we have found MANY answers-but not this one---Yet.
The many "unanswered" questions makes this relatively unknown organization, so much more interesting.
Banschutspolizei Officer Visor Cap.
Did I say you were not? I guess its because I see more being content with it being like it is right now and it really don't seem that people are actively tring to find an answers. And still the items are being sold by many as 1st Model Railroad and Funeral Luftwaffe's with what proof of their existence durn the period 1933-1945. I don't understand the how so many could be content without any proof, is seems most parts in life we require proof on something before we accept things as real but here (collection TR in general) it seems that we don't always require any proof what so ever, all of the current evidents in there favor is pure speculation and heresy. I don't want to **** anyone off I know I have only collected for 9 year and only studied the Third Reich for maybe 15 years but that is more then half my life and I think I can put forward educated theories and ideas about the items, I believe I am the new generation of collectors and I have a right to question what may have been debated for years. I actively research many areas of WWII and German Third Reich area in general and I want truths thats all, I don't want to anger people that have been in it for years but only seek answers and knowledge which most current books do not tread into. Maybe most of you guys don't just accept them I do not know but just accepting something does not seem the answer. Buying something as a certain item with no certainty that it was really used as that item, giving it a name that know one knows is certain. I don't believe in that. But it happens and I don't understand why.
MANY old experienced collectors don't accept MANY things-
but they get tired of pointing out things that they think are bad
that the majority (it seems) just LOVE
('Ol Pat says he would LOVE to pay a premium for one of those painted/unpainted revamped questionable thingies )
-most won't listen -and keep on buying. As long as they keep on buying the sellers will keep on selling. Sellers just LOVE to sell. That's the way it is.
Oh-Very nice hat!-Pat
Oh--and if you read the books you will find that in one of the TJ volumes there is testimony from at least one German family that both type daggers were worn. It's all there in the book-at least thats something--is it enough? For some -Yes. For me? Nope!
Houston,
Am I correct in thinking that the Klass daggers considered to be Bahnschutz have grips and tangs that are longer than the usual Heer daggers ?
Dave
Yes Dave-some do and some don't and some even have longer blades-BUT-some regular armies also have longer grips.Also-many consider the WKC type with black grip as being correct also-and they don't have the long grip-usually. It's quite confusing. I don't care for them-I don't want them-but many do in spite of all the questions that we have been unable to answer. I'm not mad-just kiddin'-just trying to point that out.
Houston,
The two that I have handled both had longer grips ... by about 5mm or so. One was a Klass in pretty poor shape at a local show. The other one is a Tiger in the collection of the 82nd Airborne at Ft. Bragg.
I would also point out that there is a good piece in Tom Johnson's Volume VIII somewhere around page 110. It shows both a first and second model owned by the same man that Tom got from the man's daughter.
Dave
Yes-Tiger is another that some believe in. I know about the article in Tom's book but just that one thing is not enough for me--and many others. I would have to see a period regulation or a clear photo of one in wear to believe. After all this time-I doubt we will see one-but -you never know.
I've always found this question intesresting...
heres an interesting link on craigs site..
First Model Railway Dagger
Obviously, neither Craig and many others believe in the so-called Railway Leader dagger "theory".
With that kind of evidence, who would doubt that a Railway dagger ever existed ????
If it was indeed a Railway dagger, why in the world was it ever painted in white.
TERRA INCOGNITA ! That's what I say !
Manfred,
A subject that greatly interests me and I wholeheartedly agree with you from a historical perspective. The significance of German trains and their operations cannot be underscored. It was a big organization. Why not and it certainly makes sense. But, I would still need hard evidence.
Also, It's amazing how the germans utilized trains, particularly throughout WWII. From passenger trains to freight/munition trains, troop trains, hospital trains and guard trains just to name a few. You name it they had it and where very clever in their usage. Most interesting to me are what I call "Special Trains". A few of the top leadership had their own to include Hitler. I was fortunate to have used Goering's "Special Train" and others.
Many people get often mistaken between the "Reichbahn" and "Banschutz".
The Banschutz were a very small para-military unit under the supervision of the Reichban.
The Reichban was indeed one of the largest organization in the Third Reich but
not the Bahnschutz.
The Bahnschutz were eventually taken over by the SS in 1942.
The Reichbahn personel were not permitted to wear the any of the Railway leader dagger ( 1st or 2nd ). Only the Banschutz were entitled to wear the dagger.
The Bahnschutz were believed to be no more than 4500 men, which makes it the smallest para-military unit in the Third Reich era.
In any case, the Bahnschutzpolizei is not readily understood since there is no english reference book on the subject.
It just makes it more "appealing" to research.
Mikee: Hard evidence would be nice but in its absence the only thing anyone can do is to adopt a pro or con rationalization that we prefer for whatever reason.
Since documentation in terms of handbooks, textbooks and catalogs seem to be in agreement on the existence of the 1st model RR it would take pretty hard evidence to overturn that 'apple cart'. In general, the blackhandled army dagger has been universally accepted as the 1st model RR dagger. My own take is that collecting is a hobby, and as such should not be taken too seriously. And after everything is said and done, and proved or disproved, it doesn't really make a heck of a lot of difference one way or another. In the final analysis, whenever a blackhandled army shows up every collector would call it the 1st model RR dagger.
MVOGEL -I have NEVER heard of ANY official mention of any so called 1st model railway dagger in any period publication. Perhaps you would care to tell us just exactly where you found this information. It is not accepted by the collecting community as well as you indicate as it has always been highly questionable.
Houston Coates: I have never referred to PERIOD publications. I only referred to available textbooks or handbooks which have identified the blackhandled army dagger as 1st model Railway dagger. As a result this dagger has been generally accepted by most collectors as the 1st model RW dagger. Those who question this account have no hard evidence for their stand either. Matter of fact there are several different opinions in the hopper. Some say that the handles were supposed to be white but the paint peeled off, others say they were intended for a special service but aren't sure exactly what service. Ultimately, the critics have no 'earth shaking' and cohesive evidence that would once and for all settle the argument. In the meantime the blackhandled army dagger will always be referred to as the 1st model Railway dagger. It is identified as such in Tom Johnson's publication, in Wittmann's catalog or his website now, or any militaria website that sells or auctions them. The term '1st model railway dagger' is too much entrenched in the collecting community to be suddenly overturned by unsubstantiated rationalisations and gutlevel opinions.
I also want to add that I don't really care one way or another what they want to call it. I'm not a dealer so I'm not any richer or poorer by what someone wants to put on the label. Its just another dagger, so whats the big deal?
Manfred-I know you don't care about authenticity but most do. Sorry-I don't agree that it will always be called that-some contrary evidence may surface."Funeral" daggers will not always be called that either--its just BS-we all know that.
Alas I'm not alone
. I will always view these as a black heers dagger and a black luft until the evident show positive proof to the contrary. Not all of us will believe everything in the books, of sales catalogs. Why sould people have to believe something that is not proven, and I think its an issue Manfred these are highly questionable and I would be a hypocrite if I owned one, just because the big dogs say so. I collect for the history and to this point these can't even prove their history so in my opinion are not worthy to collect in my field of collecting.
The collector that collects to have more or to just spend money, they may love one.(there is nothing wrong with that
)
The photo is a "black gripped Army", vet purchased with thin black striped hangers and the vet's statement that the dagger and hangers were found in the back of a deck drawer in a bombed out rail yard. The portapee is a Johnson
I have examined the grip under a 10 power loupe and that are no traces of paint. I have examined quite a few "black gripped Army" daggers in the past 35 years. Grips with traces of paint have the later Klaas fittings like Craig's example. The few I have seen with no paint traces are the earlier Klaas fittings. I think the dagger and the hangers are an interesting variation regardless of what it's called
Adam, you are definitively NOT alone
and I must admit that Vern's dagger provenance is also very interesting.
I guess we will never see the end of it.
That is very interesting Vern. I am at a lose for the origins of these, maybe they existed maybe not. Did you get a written statement by the veteran, that would be awesome. All we need is some document from the archives there has to be records(period) of them somewhere, but if they ever surface very slim chances. Maybe some day something will surface, the only guy I know that was deep into research on this org. was RBBrad, that was a member here at on time. I know he had lots of information on the Reichbahn and Bahnschulz but I think he joined in the Groupee Exodus, To bad. But if Verns proof is written and documented that is a step in there favor of its existance, I would think. But it still does not verify that it was used for a R.R. Dagger we can only guess why it was at a railway yard. Wow this topic could get deep if you really wanted to spend the time to reserch all of it.
Just as a side note, I've read somewhere but can't remember exactly where ( perhaps someone could tell me ) that boxes full of SA blades where found in a Reichbahn warehouse.
That doesn't make the SA dagger a Bahnschutzpolizei edged weapon.
I have the written statement from the vet, a sargent in the 3rd Armor Division. Since just about everything in Germany was shipped by rail, a box of blades in a warehouse really has little bearing on the discussion. Now if an SA dagger with a blue grip/scabbard and hanger were found in a railyard office, that would be interesting
In reply to Houstons statement that a few black griped Red Cross Officers exist, I became very curious. I have only seen one such dagger which was for sale on this site about a year ago. I contacted Whittmann and Shea as to the existance of a black griped red cross officers and both said that they had never seen one (although theoretically possible since Klaas may have used the same materials/ process that they used on lufts (and as we are currently discussing army/rails)being also a well known maker of red cross daggers.). When I re-contacted the seller of the black gripped red cross with my concerns he reluctantly disassembled the dagger and found that it was infact painted black, he then retracted the item from sale. I guess my question is, do these daggers exist? Can anyone provide a pic???
Thats great Vern! But I will always remain skeptical of anything without period proof, these are one of the few daggers no one can find anything on(pictures, regulation, ect.) but providents such as your would be a step in the right direction for the community without a doubt.
Another possiblity is that these painted black gripped armys were in fact 1st. Model bahnschulz and when the later 2nd model bahnschulz were introduced they used up the inventory of these grips on the later type klaas daggers by painting the grips and making them Army daggers, again this really doesn't get us anywere but when I investigate anything I play both sides to see what the results could be, but still this does not get us period proof
It goes on and on.
Yes, it goes round and round. Without documentation, you can make a case for whichever point of view you support. But regardless of who carried them, they are a rare version
There was a black gripped RC leader at the Max 2 years ago. It was not painted. I went back to get it and it had been sold...
I have a theory here and it's just my theory:
Klass had a load of black trylon to make 1st model Rails, when the contract for the new 2nd model was let to Eickhorn, they, being frugal Germans, cast 2nd luft, armys and a few RC leader grips and decided to paint them to sell as std daggers. Over the years guys removed the paint and so today we have an assortment of Klaas black grips on these daggers. I know this to be fact on 2nd Lufts, and Armies cause I own examples. The RC? Have yet to find one with paint remaining...
Lastly- I am not saying that the Funeral 2nd luft did not exist in the period, what I will say is that most of these started life as yellow gripped 2nd lufts.
Who ever said that this hobby was easy ?
Houston: Maybe you are right but we have the same situation with the SS Officer-Candidate degen and the Naval Assault dagger. In the case of the latter we know that this dagger was never assigned specifically to Naval assault troops but everyone still calls it the Naval Assault dagger. Why? Because of ease of communication. And in the case of the 1st model RW dagger there will always be lingering questions, and evidence may surface which may support or dispute its purported function from time to time. But one thing is certain, it will allways be considered a separate and unique item. One reason is that there are too many collectors out there who don't want to hear that their 1st model RW dagger in their collection is just an overpriced run-in-the-mill army dagger. And dealers who have some of these in their inventories would not be thrilled with the idea either. This is why, at this point in time, it would take some pretty convincing and well documented evidence that would change all that.
I also like to say that I do care about authenticity. Proven authenticity is when an artifact can be traced back to the period in question by means of provenance. I don't know of many collectors in the 'average' category who have this type of formal proof for all their collectables. It would be nice to have documented evidence for all the daggers, medals, etc. But since I don't have it I made the decision to 'endure' without.
Manfred -we do now have pictorial proof that the "so called-old called" candidate degen is in fact an SS Officer's degen.Those photos are right on this forum. Those who ignore this or don't know this and continue with the old term are IMO -to say the least-"out to lunch" in hobby knowledge.
.-However I would speculate with the positive opinion that most really know better but just use the term for easy identification as to what they are talking about. The Naval Assault terminology is the same. In time these terms may go away-I hope so -because they are not historically correct---and there are others too--I really hate it when someone says "Postal Dagger" instead of "Postschutz". One big dealer went so far as to say he did not know what a postman would do with such a dagger. Such BS IMO should not go without challenge and we should try to be correct in our terminology. Again--I think -and hope some of this BS will go away in time--at least -most don't still think there were only 200 Himmler daggers and the little bench marks are the serial numbers. JMO
I feel the same as Lakeside Trader.The daggers were made as we call them "1st R.R.",the 2ndR.R. came out and ended the need.If this dagger didn't exist why are 2ndR.R. made with the same grip materials and there black also?? I wish they would find evidence it would increase my 1st.I bought it 15yrs.ago when they were really 1st R.R.to almost everyone.
We just have to hope that evidence will be found-one way or the other. The black gripped army at one time was thought to be a Pioneer dagger and the Postschutz -a Signal Corps Officer dagger.
I would think that the answer will lie in period photographs. It would not be the first time !
With luck, a sharp photo will turn up showing the #1 being worn.
Dave
[quote]Lastly- I am not saying that the Funeral 2nd luft did not exist in the period, what I will say is that most of these started life as yellow gripped 2nd lufts.
Paul, I have been following this thread with much skepticism about anyone ever coming to any concrete conclusion, especially about the 1st & 2nd Rail, or Army whatever. But on the 2nd Luft are you saying the grips started out yellow and were painted black or black and then painted yellow. I know of some Klaas wooden grips being painted yellow, but black being painted yellow or vice versa? My black handled Klaas "Funeral" that is referenced in Wittmann's book, has no traces of any paint and is black throughout. I have seen yellow and white painted black, and we both know those are fake. I know Denny has some black grip Army or 1st Rail or whatever you wish to call them, also without any traces of paint as well. I guess this will continue to muddy the waters even more. I think every 2nd Luft collection should have a black gripped example. It should however be black through and through and be called whatever anyone wants it to be called. No one has to buy one or even make any reference to them. They should just let those of us that wish to own one for the simple reason that we want to and we could give a shirt less what anybody else thinks. Johnson did have a black gripped 2nd Luft presentation on his site a couple of years ago that had the birth date along with date of death inscribed on the crossguard. According to some on this forum, it was probably just put on there to further it's merchantability. Of course he might have had it on when he was buried and one of the gravediggers removed it for prosperity.
I won't venture an opinion on this one except to show a pic of a 2nd Luft that had the paint scrubbed off it and used at a wedding as a black gripped dagger (easy to see as you are able to compare the black w/the other lighter colored grips present). What was it used for? (Maybe it should be called a "Wedding Dagger"? and used to represent the d e e p Depression the groom was about to go through)?
MUST have had a specific use OR it was just a (optional from the factory) black grip? (Also looks as if the blade of the "blackie", "wedding" dagger may have been damascus?) I'm clueless....
Denny
Description: 2lblack
Mike what I meant is that I own Klaas examples that are black grips which have been period painted yellow. I believe they were originally sold as std daggers. I make no judgement as to if black grip 2nd lufts are a legitimate period variation.
BTW, if all armies started life as white grips as some contend, why whould klaas paint their's yellow...
Nice picture Denny! I've got it now!
These were designed for married officers only. They knew when they got married there would soon be a funeral. Makes sense to me.
Paul, I knew that was what you meant, I just wanted to stir the pot a little.
I know you are hiding a lot of those Klaas with all sorts of different colored grips. I think it would be difficult to remove all remnants of a coat of paint regardless of the color. I was never one to adhere to the notion that all army grips started life white. Got me back on that one didn't ya?
I'm introducing this for the sake of discussion:
Let's assume that Dennys theory is correct and a black gripped dagger was used for special occasions. Is it possible that the owner just ordered one dagger with a regular grip and an extra black grip and changed them to suit the occasion? Before the advent of screw in chokes it was somewhat common to order shotguns with extra barrels.
Every day something comes along in this hobby,let's hope for a photo.I like what Houston wrote about the Pioneer and Signal Corps first time for that but that's why were here.The other thing this dagger may have been made and never issued to the R.R.
I can't see anyone possessing 2 grips, 1 for special occasions AND the black 1? Why don't we see more of the black gripped daggers? I contend they filled a slot, but what it was I don't have a clue....
Denny
Paul
I own some very interesting stuff that KLAAS made myself. Why they seemed to be the only or nearly only group engaged in the manufacturing of these "oddities", I can only guess.
Boils down to everyone's personal decision as to what purpose they served, in lieu of period documentation. That may be lost forever?
I still believe they served some purpose, but what, I'm not sure of.........
I'll admit to once believing they were 1st rails, but have since become skeptical and personally throw mine into the Army classification. STILL a very expensive ARMY (but in all fairness seems to be pushed, pricewise, by a bunch of rare and well conditioned Armys) and one that many people will spend their hard earned money on, including me, when it's "righteous", in my eyes anyway.....
Denny
Buying an extra grip would certainly be less expensive than buying a complete dagger just for special occasions. As we all know grips can be changed in less time than it's taking me to type this.
Anyway; My thoughts.
Jim
For sake of argument, at least everyone should acknowledge the solid black grips are period and original. If we can all agree on that, then you would have to agree they are rare simply because of their numbers. Rare pieces bring a higher premium than an ordinary piece. Regardless of what purpose they served, they are pleasing to the eye and if you like them, buy them. Just because you can't validate their purpose, one shouldn't bad mouth someone who likes them just because they exist. Anybody want to sell their black grip 2nd Luft?
Mike
You grabbed that picture, did you? That was taken at Eric Hartmann's (the Famous Ace of Luftwaffe flying fame) wedding.
It shows me that there was definitely a black gripped 2nd Luft made and in use during the period when Hartmann was married. It could find NO reason to change colors or be painted? Never had it, never will, the paint that is. Looks like it had a damascus blade, too.
You read about regulations and catalog specs, OR lack of around the color black, and then wonder why anyone would have sported a black gripped 2nd Luft OR Army, but I know they did. A couple of Armys that I own have ZERO traces of paint same as your 2nd Luft. Another was painted yellow and is peeling everywhere. I think it may have boiled down to personal choice as to the color of the grip even though no documentation exists stating black as an option. That is really no surprise as that happens today in many cases where certain options are omitted in docs until asked for by the buyer. May also have been some specific use such as 1st Rail, Funeral, wedding, or whatever......dependent upon the dagger type. Our guess is as good as any?
Denny
I still believe that the term 1st model RW dagger will stick for years to come unless something that shows proof positive that it was used for a different and specific use. Calling it a black handled army is incorrect as well because there is no proof that it was worn by the army either. And throwing it in with army pile is replacing one error with another. Thus we are left with a dagger that was not worn by anyone that we know of and had no known purpose. I don't think that the majority of collectors who have this dagger in their collection would be very enthusiastic about this type of revised definition. I, personally, will change my mind only when proof positive to the contrary surfaces.
mvogel
Thank Goodness my opinion differs from yours. We seem to be at opposite ends of the spectrum, most times and that's fine.
I, as you state, in the absence of proof positive, will allow my black gripped daggers to remain with my Army group and until which time.......
It's every man (opinion) for himself......
Denny
would it be possible in that pic that the grip is actually a dark orange grip, and not black?
im glad you found that pic, as i was too lazy to dig out my book, and scan and post lol
i was trying to compare anything else in that photo with what we KNOW is black, and came up with this question.
maybe take a photo of something with a camera and set camera on black and white, and compare dark orange items to black ones........
Denny,
Have you ever measured the length of tho grips on your various Army daggers ?
Dave
Dave
Only enough to see that they fall within a range and are not all exactly the same length.
Denny
Just picked up this one. It's about 99% painted and has the late Klaas trademark with just the birds
I have a very worakble theory as to why the Klass army with black-painted-white-grip existed. My theory is backed up with some evidence. As you know, there were documented shortages of trolon, as mentioned in WKC Factory files. Reason: the resins used to make the grips contained components necessary to make gun powder and explosives. And obviously, as the war got under way, the Third Reich needed these things mroe than they needed dress daggers. Solution: do whatever could be done to continue to make daggers. Therefore, we see galalith, celluloid with wood and plaster cores, bone, painted wood, and other experimental materials used. My assertion is that Klaas got their hands on some grips that were intended for use either for a never-produced 3rd Reich dagger, or another dagger for export. They painted them white and used them to complete Army daggers.
One other bit of evidence that supports my theory is that the tangs (and grips) on the Klaas daggers in question are LONGER than standard army daggers. It seems possible that the grips already existed (in slightly longer state) and the tangs were made longer to accomodate these grips. Of course, we'll never know if my theory is correct. But, given that 95% of the blacked-grip army daggers out there have traces of white paint, I'm fairly convinced that there never were 1st model Railway daggers.
It should also be pointed out that while Klaas produced the majority of these pieces (98% or better, based on our collector experience), there are one or two pieces that have been documented by other makers. Maybe they too got their hands on some of those black grips
Craig,
"given that 95% of the black-grip army daggers out there have traces of white pain".
That is one statistic which I didn't know about, and this would certainly suggest to me the unlikely existence of the so called "Railway" dagger.
Nonetheless, I would still pay the retail price for such a dagger
simply for his unique black grip characteristic and nothing else.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Original-WWII-1st-Model-Railway-Dag...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemFor anyone with a burning desire to own one of these here's an example on Ebay:
Jim
This one looks odd to me. Finish appears to be nickel and scabbard isn't the typical scabbard used by Klaas. I'd bet that this one was made to "sell".
Denny
Same seller is also selling an interesting
"Water Protection Police Dagger"
Link
Denny:
I noticed that too and figured the seller had "buffed it up nice an Pretty" to get more for it!
Jim
Ahhh, bullschit. All this theorizing is just a bunch of hogwash. For me and most folks this will always be the fist model RW. Thats how I like it. Who cares about all the rest. Historical correctness sounds almost like political correctness and I don't want none of it. Nothin' but a bunch o' baloney.
Oh, I forgot to respond to Jim M's posting. The dagger you show is a Spanish replica. Here is a pic of a REAL 1st RW. There is not the slightest trace of white paint on the handle. Not even under the pommel and ferrule.
Its a Klaas with the asterisk on the scabbard band.
Manfred,
That's exactly the one I wish to have !
Manfred:
Nice spotting of a replica from the pictures provided. Someone is going to learn an expensive lesson here
I could buy into these being Armys with a substitute material being used for the grip except for the extra long tang. Even if these black grips were ones to be used for a dagger that was never made; Would a maker really go through the extra trouble and expense to have a special long tang run of Army blades?
A little white spray paint Manfred and yours will look as good as new!
Jim
I love the black grips they just look GREAT, controversy and all. I too believe that it was a cheaper/more available material and Klaas wanted to save a $, but who knows, I am still FAR too inexperienced to comment on it now. I am however still looking for an authentic black gripped Red Cross officers... if anyone knows of one available.
Obviously there are some noticeable differences of opinion on the black grips and what it all means. And although my perspective might be a little different, I think Craig’s and some other ideas for the reasons for the painted black plastic grips have some merit. Craig cites documented shortages of Trolon in WKC factory files. As regards the use of black plastic grips in production, insofar as the painted examples are concerned, the fact remains that they were painted to imitate something else. And that includes some where the paint has been removed to make them “black grips” for resale purposes.
Serious shortages of the chemical feed stocks for phenolic resins were evident in military production circa 1942 by which time the production of daggers had probably already ceased. Like with other items intended for the Wehrmacht spot shortages were experienced before then. But what could have killed Trolon (Gusskunstharz/cast phenolic resin) as a grip material at first IMO was not as much a shortage of basic chemicals as it was the labor/time intensive process required to make it. My point being that with some minor differences the feed stocks for cast and molded phenolic resins are essentially the same. But the time and energy to produce a dark colored molded part, instead of light colored cast resin part is considerably less, with molded parts being as machinable as cast parts.
When you factor in that molding resins became more available as German industry shifted away from civilian production. The most obvious downside is that the grips had to be painted which at best was not a permanent solution because of the problem of paint loss. And possibly why it was not adopted more widely at the time(?). Whatever the reason, Klass in spite of what others may have used, acted independently and apparently secured an alternative source for grips using a black plastic resin as other makers sought out other alternatives.
Some period background: Dynamit AG. (formerly: Alfred Nobel & Co. Werke) in Troisdorf/Rheinland was not the only game in town for plastics. Dynamit-Nobel during the war specialized in munitions having shifted its efforts from civilian products to military production. Under various names the factories at Troisdorf besides Trolon also made Trolitan (Phenolharz/conventional Bakelite). And Troplast (Harnstoffharz/urea resin), Trolitul (polystyrene) and other types of plastics. And while Dynamit-Nobel was a player: It was dwarfed by chemical giant I.G. Farbenindustrie AG. And in competition with some other phenolic resin makers such as Dr. Fritz Raschig GmbH which also specialized in cast phenolic resins as did Chemische Werke Albert, Augsberger Kunstharzfabrik AG., Firma Wedig und Reuß (etc.). If molding resins are added to the mix the number of possible makers is dramatically expanded.
It would seem to me that there is still some work needed on multiple fronts before the final chapter is written on just where the black grips fit into the picture. FP
Good Explaination Fred of the materials and the key players. But it still leaves the nagging problem of these black grips and the associated blade tangs being longer than regular Army examples.
Jim
That my friend is where the collection of information and a current reappraisal of all available information comes in. Houston IMO was right on when he pointed out: "so called ... Candidate Degen is in fact an SS Officer's Degen” ... and “should not go without challenge and we should try to be correct in our terminology”. With that topic demonstrating what a current reappraisal can do instead of relying on postwar books, sales catalogs, web sites etc. etc.
The point being that what somebody 1, 5, 10, 20, or even 30 years ago in catalogs, books, whatever (having shaped current thinking) may be in error. And more to the point with the black gripped examples, were they just manufacturing variations or were they intentionally made longer?? I don’t know. But I think until some hard data is developed at this instant in time the only thing really for certain is that there were some manufacturing anomalies. With after reviewing the discussion the “why” part of it still a question mark. Regards, FP
To keep this from disappearing
Pat.. I have to ask. Do you play the part of Lou Carpenter on 'Neighbours'?
Whatever happened to Adam?
I believe he got pretty teed off with the high prices of daggers and left the hobby.
Nolan
quote:
Originally posted by Terry Pullen:
Pat.. I have to ask. Do you play the part of Lou Carpenter on 'Neighbours'?
Haaaaaaaaaaa !
quote:
Originally posted by Doug Kenwright aka "KURSK":
Whatever happened to Adam?
Didn't I read somewhere something about him and a naked woman in a garden and getting evicted for stealing fruit?
