This most recent arrival into the sweltering Great White North is a dagger that most collectors, me included, shy away from since it is so heavily faked. It is combination of different dagger parts, a 1st Navy pommel, a black grip, police insignia and Navy blade and scabbard. And, yes, the insignia wiggles.

The scabbard is worn and dented (a bit), the grip is also worn, the blade has wear and nicks, but it is all what I would expect from a period worn piece.

A nice addition to my little Eickhorn themed collection.

John

Cool, John.

"Little Collection" ??

Dave:

Yeah, I do not collect big things like swords.

J

Wow thats a rare dagger for sure & great patina as well.

Hi John!
This my favorite dagger, I have been enamored by them since I was a kid. I do not care for yours for many reasons but to be safe I will try and find one of mine by Eickhorn to compare. There is a vital difference or two compared to your typical KM dagger, I don't think yours has what I expect to see. There are other differences too which I do not see either, I will verify on mine but I am not too confident on yours.
I hope I am wrong!
Bob

Hello, yes, these daggers, especially the EICKHORN ones are very difficult to judge. ALCOSO, with the special grip badge is somehow easier. I do not have much experience on this special kind of dagger.
I can only mention some forensic facts. On the dagger shown I think to see the large EICKHORN pommel with totally matching patination so this would fit and for me it excludes that the pommel has been postwar added to a (later) KM dagger. The pommel fit to grip is, what I can see in the pics, good which is a big plus. Cannot say anything about the badge but what I can see in the pics it is no police bayonet badge and no police degen badge which is also a plus in my eyes..
IMHO this dagger has at least a good chance. Just my personal opinion.
Regards,

Hi Joe!
I used to think these are near impossible to tell if original but...... After extensive research on Eickhorn WPP daggers the only cross guard I would ever trust on one of these is the one in the picture. This applies only to Eickhorn WPP daggers.
Bob

RFI, please apologize that I interfere. What you do show is not the typical -in house- EICKHORN crossguard. Is it a WKC? This would also fit to the red washer used by WKC and not EICKHORN. I am aware (and have often seen it and have owned several of them) that EICKHORN did use WKC crossguards (and other parts). Please keep in mind that I do NOT doubt your research, on the contrary I do appreciate it and want to learn too and want to understand.
Regards,

Hi Joe!
Please send me an email at rfimd2000@yahoo.com
Thanks!
Bob

Thank you for your feedback.

IMHO, the use of Eickhorn crossguards is not a red flag to me, but WKC ones probably would be.

Here is the rear view of the crossguard for my RWP, plus that of my 4 35-41 marked navy daggers, including one with a similar black grip. It looks like the last crossguard on an ivory gripped Navy is a WKC product like the one that Bob shows.

BTW. I surmise that the rarely found black gripped Navy2 is probably due to use of leftover black grips from the RWP when regular grips were not available.

John

Joe,
1. I never did hear from you.

2. I never made a study of KM parts to know exactly which company made which daggers fittings.

3. The guard I have shown is the guard on all of the Eickhorn known to be original WPP daggers.

4. Look in the early Johnson books, most of the WPP daggers have the guard covered by the portapee. However, there is at least one that shows the guard well enough to show it is the one I showed. The owner of the one in Johnson's book I have begged to sell me his, no luck yet but he might let it go someday.

5. I am not positive and I am not motivated enough to look, "I think" it is one of Angolia's early books that also shows the guard well enough of a Eickhorn WPP dagger which also has this guard.

6. Compare the leather on John's dagger to every other German dagger with leather on the grip. Perhaps it is the pictures but from what I see it looks sloppy, I have never seen a period leathered grip with this poor of a fit. I would not own that dagger.

To add to this, here is a scan from the Eick catalog of model 1797 Wasserschutz Polizei dagger.

Looks to me like the standard Eick naval crossguard.

John

The leather on John's post of 2018 looks good to me, for whatever thats worth.
The leather on his post from 2012 is bad, but for sure another dagger for crossguard look.
I see scuffs on the in question dagger, but the fit looks good.
What exactly is wrong with it?
Ed
I'm not trying to start anything, just wondering.

Hi John!
I guess what it comes down to is you being happy with it, that is all that matters:)!
Bob

I hear you, Bob.

Ed, the 2012 pic is of a black gripped navy..the grip is like a shellac and not leather, unlike this one shown here, which is a nice but worn leather.

Johnz

John
Still looks awful nice to me.
No more ware than a normal Luftwaffe.
Nice dagger, super find.
Ed

RFI, although you have simply ignored my posting I would like to emphasize that I don t want to criticize your research but would like a vivid, civilized discussion about a dagger most collectors do know very few about. That is what makes such forums valuable and interesting.

I would like to pre state, that the fit of the pommel and the grip is imho VERY important for the classification of WSP daggers. The original elder round pommels did need a new thread made by the fakers to fit the larger thread of the navy blades. This nearly always did lead to misfitted pommels (and also grips). So to check the fit of pommel/grip/crossguard is basic for these daggers.

I have to part the pics I want to show because I want to comment each one seperately.

Here we see the photograph of the mentioned early Angolia book. A WSP dagger with suspect very high-in-the-grip attached badge and a very misfitted grip.
I personally would not like it in my collection.
And, yes, it has no EICKHORN crossguard...

The next one is from Johnson s books. One with a better badge fit and still a very bad grip fit, imho typically for postwar assambling.

This one although seems to have good chances to be an original one. Also out of Johnson s books.

.....and what do we see? A typical EICKHORN crossguard...

EICKHORN, as one of the biggest (when not THE biggest) edged weapon manufacturers in IIIR, did produce the navy crossguard for long time in house. Until middle to late dagger production I could only observe this special in house crossguard on navies. On middle to late daggers sometimes the WKC crossguard (and also pommel) does occur. As WSP daggers have been produced already pre "middle/late" dagger productions I cannot understand why EICKHORNS should "always" have the WKC crossguard (and they obviously don?t have).
Deep research is what makes collecting interesting and it is necessary, to understand history, to see different types and to be able to try to collect only originals. I do have most of the dagger books. Also Angolia?s. But when it comes to originality we unfortunately had to learn that some of the best known initiators of the hobby like Angolia or Atwood sometimes did nothing good to our hobby... Johnson imho always tries and tried to do his best and I don?t want to detract from what he has done to our hobby but 1.) he did have subwriters, 2.) he too cannot know all and 3.) I can show you several at least very spurious items in his book.
So research simply on books, even more on early books, when we had much more limited knowledge as there was no internet and no worldwide knowledge exchange by collectors, can become dangerous when collecting, especially exotic daggers.
Again I want to say that my knowledge on WSP daggers is limited but all shown and said gives JohnZ s WSP dagger still good chances to be an original one.

BTW I don?t believe in black gripped WSP daggers, I think the grips have been blue but due to age and some shoe polish the blue became dark(er) and now seems to be nearly black on some daggers.

Regards,

Wotan
It does look like the grips were blue, on the same line as DLV/NSFKs.
also looks like some had the grip emblem and some did not.
Thanks for a great thread to all here,
Learning at 70
Ed

The grip is a very dark blue, fyi.

Johnz

Wotan,
I greatly respect your knowledge on police material, I wish you had emailed me. I could have told you a couple of interesting things, maybe we can talk at the Max. I don't like to say too much publicly on certain topics since too many people see these postings we might have to worry about.
I have not seen an Alcoso in 30 years, to me they are an absolute mystery and I have no clue how to tell a good one.
Bob

RFI, thank you very much for your contribution. I have sent you here a pm.
Regards,

Hi!
If anyone is interested Wittmann has a 110% original WPP dagger by WKC on his web site now. It is a little rough but you will almost never see another. And just so you know, I like Tom but I am not his most favorite person in the world, still a great dagger though!
Bob